What Would Ireland Be Like If Sinn Fein & ULA Were Running Things

RockinRolla

Would we have a liberal utopia...I mean, these two are all the way out there on the left. What type of country would Ireland resemble if these two were in coalition.

They certainly are an option people are considering given that LP, FG and FF are all the same.

nesf

A tax regime like the 70s or 80s (i.e. repressive), heavy overspending on services, much less favourable environment for business and multinationals so fewer jobs outside of State funded. Etc.

PeterIanStaker

Even more f*cked than it is now?

meglome

nesf wrote: »

A tax regime like the 70s or 80s (i.e. repressive), heavy overspending on services, much less favourable environment for business and multinationals so fewer jobs outside of State funded. Etc.

Yeah exactly. I'm not against socialist policy's for the most part but the ULA for example are as much anti-capitalist as socialist. Whatever you say about capitalism it's been the most effective form of government, flaws n' all.

If we take the OP's premise that the LP, FG, FF are all the same (which I disagree with btw) then we'd be voting for people who'd be, without doubt, worse again.

chucken1

RockinRolla wrote: »

Would we have a liberal utopia...I mean, these two are all the way out there on the left. What type of country would Ireland resemble if these two were in coalition.

They certainly are an option people are considering given that LP, FG and FF are all the same.

What's your own thoughts on this?

GarlicBread

FF and FG would be sitting next to each other in opposition and life would be good .

meglome

GarlicBread wrote: »

FF and FG would be sitting next to each other in opposition and life would be good .

I think an awful lot of us would like to see new political parties. Right now though we're going to have to choose the best we can which isn't SF and the ULA.

Lockstep

It would be something like this. Except with Irish lyrics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W8xnrRRS44

NOGMaxpower

nesf wrote: »

A tax regime like the 70s or 80s (i.e. repressive), heavy overspending on services, much less favourable environment for business and multinationals so fewer jobs outside of State funded. Etc.

You clearly dont know SF's economic policies, that wouldn't happen and you are just fear mongering.

You would find that there would be higher taxes for those who can pay it. Tax loop holes would be closed off, public services would see increased funding, education, health and jobs would see extra funding. You would see the top earners in the public sector taking major wage cuts.

All in all, take what FF have proposed in their 4 year plan and SF would do the apposite, less cuts and more taxes on those who can pay it. Instead FF have more tax, more cuts on those who can't afford it leaving the rich rich.

Bottle_of_Smoke

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

You clearly dont know SF's economic policies, that wouldn't happen and you are just fear mongering.

You would find that there would be higher taxes for those who can pay it.

So what happens when those who can pay more decide like bono, they'd rather pay nothing to Ireland and pay less taxes elsewhere.

And don't give me some rhetoric about what these people should or shouldn't do. The reality is we need their taxes and if we go nuts with taxes we'll get nothing at all from them. Sinn Fein supporters seem to just pretend this isn't the case.

Firefox11

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

You clearly dont know SF's economic policies, that wouldn't happen and you are just fear mongering.

You would find that there would be higher taxes for those who can pay it. Tax loop holes would be closed off, public services would see increased funding, education, health and jobs would see extra funding. You would see the top earners in the public sector taking major wage cuts.

All in all, take what FF have proposed in their 4 year plan and SF would do the apposite, less cuts and more taxes on those who can pay it. Instead FF have more tax, more cuts on those who can't afford it leaving the rich rich.

So if you tax the hell out of the wealthy and then see a collapse in the tax take as the wealth is transferred out of the country how do suppose to finance the increase in spending on public services? We cant live on huge debts from the IMF/ECB forever. Sorry Bottle of smoke...you got there before me.:)

irishh_bob

RockinRolla wrote: »

Would we have a liberal utopia...I mean, these two are all the way out there on the left. What type of country would Ireland resemble if these two were in coalition.

They certainly are an option people are considering given that LP, FG and FF are all the same.

adams ireland would be something along the lines of putins russia politically and chavez venezuela economically minus the oil , the love fest with fidel would still go ahead though

RockinRolla

irishh_bob wrote: »

adams ireland would be something along the lines of putins russia politically and chavez venezuela economically minus the oil , the love fest with fidel would still go ahead though

So thats it then...we've no decent political parties is what you're saying...

ei.sdraob

irishh_bob wrote: »

adams ireland would be something along the lines of putins russia politically

you might be onto something

one of the recent wikileaks documents alleges that Putin is on top of the mafia pyramid and the mafia is used to do things the state can not get away with such as selling weapons to Kurd's etc

given SF connections to a certain crowd ....

GarlicBread

meglome wrote: »

I think an awful lot of us would like to see new political parties. Right now though we're going to have to choose the best we can which isn't SF and the ULA.

Its the electorate that will decide that, not all of us keyboard warriors, even tho we do somtimes think we are great and worth a few more votes than others:D.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Manach

Whilst I personally would not favour SF's policy, at least they do not propose altering the Corporate Tax Rate (based on an article from their website).
Given that the MNC export sector is one of the key engines of any recovery, it shows a smidgen of sense.

nesf

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

You clearly dont know SF's economic policies, that wouldn't happen and you are just fear mongering.

It wasn't what if SF was in Government but what if SF and the ULA were in Government. SF favour higher taxes, higher public spending, the ULA favour even more of this as well as higher corporation tax rates etc. Any answer to the question has to assume a synthesis between the two group's policies.

Cork boy 55

no boards.ie anymore for sure

just imagine their immigration policy,
does not bear thinking about

danbohan

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

no boards.ie anymore for sure

just imagine their immigration policy,
does not bear thinking about

on the contrary , boards .ie would be very useful mind exercise for those recovering from knee surgery , it would of course have to be heavily censored

jmayo

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

You clearly dont know SF's economic policies, that wouldn't happen and you are just fear mongering.

You would find that there would be higher taxes for those who can pay it. Tax loop holes would be closed off, public services would see increased funding, education, health and jobs would see extra funding. You would see the top earners in the public sector taking major wage cuts.

All in all, take what FF have proposed in their 4 year plan and SF would do the apposite, less cuts and more taxes on those who can pay it. Instead FF have more tax, more cuts on those who can't afford it leaving the rich rich.

Health does not need extra funding, it just needs the funding it receives already to not just go on over inflated salaries and salaries for unneeded staff.

What exactly is the definition of the rich ?
Is it anyone earning more than 100k or anyone earning more than 50k ?

If you over tax the people that probably create the jobs and real enterprises then they will either find loopholes such as overseas bank accounts or just plain up and leave.

Raising corporation tax would be disaster for the country and send us back to the 60s.

SF and some other so call leftists all hail from a mindset where the Soviet Union was actually seen as successful. :rolleyes:

There is no such thing as a socialist/marxist utopia and cvlaiming there is is living in delusion.

BTW has anyone thought how the Defense Forces and Gardaí would react to seeing the likes of martin ferris as a minister ?

Teclo

RockinRolla wrote: »

Would we have a liberal utopia...I mean, these two are all the way out there on the left. What type of country would Ireland resemble if these two were in coalition.

Like Microsoft where it to be run by Bosco.

Spudmonkey

jmayo wrote: »

BTW has anyone thought how the Defense Forces and Gardaí would react to seeing the likes of martin ferris as a minister ?

Ferris: Can't we just let bygones be bygones??

bhovaspack

Random thoughts:

I'm not necessarily somebody who would vote for a left-leaning party, but I do feel a little bit disappointed with what the left has had to offer in response to the current situation in Ireland. Just as we need dynamic, motivated entrepreneurs to drive industry, we also need coherent voices on the left, if only for the sake of balance in public discourse. I sometimes have the feeling that Ireland, due to its size and type of economy, is singularly unsuited to political and economic models that originate elsewhere in Europe. Perhaps what we need are some indigenous political theorists (of both the left and right) who can devise and properly sell arguments for this or that position; otherwise it seems we're stuck with the usual populist short-term politicking for a while yet.

Apologies for the slightly off-topic digression...

phantom_lord

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

You clearly dont know SF's economic policies, that wouldn't happen and you are just fear mongering.

You would find that there would be higher taxes for those who can pay it. Tax loop holes would be closed off, public services would see increased funding, education, health and jobs would see extra funding. You would see the top earners in the public sector taking major wage cuts.

All in all, take what FF have proposed in their 4 year plan and SF would do the apposite, less cuts and more taxes on those who can pay it. Instead FF have more tax, more cuts on those who can't afford it leaving the rich rich.

So being hard working and high earning would be de-incentivised? I wonder how that would turn out.

Dannyboy83

According to the new Donegal TD, they only get to see 32k of their salary and the rest all goes "back toward the party".

Strange concept of reform.

jmayo

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Ferris: Can't we just let bygones be bygones??

Well maybe when he and his daugher renounces the people who murdered a garda rather than go collect them form jail, then yes we could start to move on and let bygones be bygones as you would wish.
Why don't you ask the Gardaí if they would like to have to protect a minister who places so little value on their lives. ?

And yes we all know they were found guilty of a lesser charge due in no small part to witness intimidation.
But to the vast majority of people in this country I would reckon it was still a cold blooded murder.
You don't usually get found gulity of manslaughter if you arrive armed with an AK47, AK 74 or some such.

And before someone comes up with how it is in the north, that is a different state, there was an accomodation to both sides and the IRA were never supposed to be at war with the security forces of this state.

Now back on topic I don't think SF's economic policies stack up, even though they appear to have improved of late and actually contain some valid workable ideas.

ISAW

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Before I state anything else i would first state I would not regard myself as a socialist ...but for the purpose of this thread I'll give them a dig out.

Higher taxes provide a temporary revenue bonanza for the state sector, but affect the other variables in ways that ultimately put a drag on the state.

Unproven...how so? the idea by the way isnt higher taxes but taxing rich people more and poorer people less. a robin hood sort of senario.

In a high-tax regime, people have less money available for savings and investments,

Well yes and no. Institutions and corporates and high wealth individuals have less money because they are taxed more. Middle class people probably have less disposable money as well but dont forget everything costs less and there are less luxuries.

which affects everything from bank deposits

they go down yes. which means banks which are to big not to fail get smaller.

to property prices

Which means houses are cheaper to buy! Mortgages are smaller and easier to pay!

to equity values

High equity valuse based on splurging available money is not a realistic representation of the true value of an equity.i mean isnt that what created all the "derivative" nonsense?

to retirement savings.

Not if the tax is channeled into a basic state pension.

This creates situations where the state has to prop up the banks, supply people with homes, and fund their retirements.

again yes and no.
No. they dont have to prop up the banks because the banks don't become to big to fail. Yes the State can supply more houses and can supply pensions.


[quope]
Consumers have less disposable income, which reduces demand, causes businesses to close, and leads to job losses;
[/quote]

Who needs fake jobs making nothing and selling luxuries? Pet rocks and canned air are not businesses worth having. Mind you while we can all slag off tupperware it brought independence to many women.

this creates unemployment, reduces tax revenue from VAT and income taxes, and increases welfare spending.

What is better welfare or having a business which produces overpriced worthless rubbish?

Charities such as St. Vincent de Paul receive fewer donations, meaning that we need even more spending on welfare.

This is a myth. V deP are getting more donations than ever when unemployment has quadrupled! And the Thatcherite idea that rich people can get rid of welfare through charity is nonsense. when the conservatives took over in the UK or US they kept the wealth to themselves.

High-net-worth individuals, entrepreneurs, and dynamic young people may come to believe that they'd be far better off in a low-tax zone—so they emigrate, and give other nations the benefit of their wealth, ideas, and talents.

Fair enough. If they don't care about Ireland let them leave. But tax the assets they cant move e.g. property. If Ireland has something in Ireland that can be used tax it. If it can be done anywhere else then all one can do is create a lower tax for that thing. e.g. corporation tax. But this is your best argument yet for not having huge income tax on middle earners.

As nesf notes, the high-tax regime has been tried in Ireland before, in the 1970s and 1980s. Was it a success then? If not, why would it be a success now?

Again yes and no. Mac the Knife taxed everything to pay of the debt and that worked. High income tax particularly on Middle classes int such a great idea. But one could cut public pay.

Sorry, but we don't need extra funding for education and health. We just need to rectify a pronounced budgetary imbalance under which 75%+ of health and education spending is funneled straight into the pockets of public servants, in the form of wages and pensions.

Well we seem to be in agreement on this.

If we spent the budgets more equitably—less padding of public servants' bank accounts, and more spending on infrastructure and facilities—the public would be much better served.

Sort of "more on the wine cellar, common room and smoked salmon and less on the lecturers salary"? I thought fringe benefits were the bane of the tax man. I mean if all the money is going into "subsistence" and non taxable allowances it is just the same as a tax shelter isn't it?

ILA

The country would be a lot better off economically, socially and politically.

It would spell the end to the graft of the right wing parties whose very doctrine cherishes the right of a few privileged individuals to rule over the majority.

danbohan

ILA wrote: »

The country would be a lot better off economically, socially and politically.

It would spell the end to the graft of the right wing parties whose very doctrine cherishes the right of a few privileged individuals to rule over the majority.

it would also be empty of the majority of productive people .

ISAW

jmayo wrote: »

Health does not need extra funding, it just needs the funding it receives already to not just go on over inflated salaries and salaries for unneeded staff.

some of which may be lower earners like porters etc.

What exactly is the definition of the rich ?
Is it anyone earning more than 100k or anyone earning more than 50k ?

How about "more than one standard deviation above the mean"?

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/earnings.htm


You can see industry in 2006 is about 600 a week and public service about 800 to 1200 a week.

So that is somewhere like 30-35 k at the bottom end and 40-45 at the top end. that would be putting 50-65 k into the "rich" bracket

If you over tax the people that probably create the jobs and real enterprises then they will either find loopholes such as overseas bank accounts or just plain up and leave.

I agree. But why should a billionaire pay no tax and get a pension and free university fees and for his children?

Raising corporation tax would be disaster for the country and send us back to the 60s.

You are cherry picking the tax! What about property tax or land tax or wealth tax?

SF and some other so call leftists all hail from a mindset where the Soviet Union was actually seen as successful. :rolleyes:

Elements of it were just as elements of the US were and other elements were not.
Marxist stalinist economics wasn't.

There is no such thing as a socialist/marxist utopia and cvlaiming there is is living in delusion.

Indeed but there isn't a capitalist corpo state one either. a lot of the Marxist thinking led to the Labour laws in Europe. In the US they live to work and get the odd weekend off. The idea of six or seven weeks holidays seems insane to them.
Europeans work to enable them to live a decent lifestyle.

BTW has anyone thought how the Defense Forces and Gardaí would react to seeing the likes of martin ferris as a minister ?

They will do what they are told. They are authoritarian after all. ( like SF) and it wouldn't be the first time an IRA man was put over the Army.

LordSutch

There are now six 'Sinn Fein' threads running in the Politics forum, whats the story :cool:

Lord Sutch, less of the OT posting please

jmayo

ISAW wrote: »

some of which may be lower earners like porters etc.

These would be the same hospitsal porters whose favourite line is "that is not my job". :rolleyes:
And trust me that is the opinion of a frontline hospital worker and not some private sector ranter.

ISAW wrote: »

I agree. But why should a billionaire pay no tax and get a pension and free university fees and for his children?

Did I ever say that the likes of Michael O'Leary should have free third level for his kids or he should be able to put 250,000 into his pension and avail of 41% tax credit ?
But I would say he should not be taxed at 65% because people like him will just give up and move elsewhere.

ISAW wrote: »

You are cherry picking the tax! What about property tax or land tax or wealth tax?

Anyone that owns property is evil and must be taxed ?
Ah yes the communists wet dream of all the property in the state being removed form the ownership of the landed classes who are keeping the poor proletariat down.
There is nothing wrong with a fair property tax, but an asset tax, land tax or wealth tax is not fair.

ISAW wrote: »

Elements of it were just as elements of the US were and other elements were not.
Marxist stalinist economics wasn't.

Please tell us the elements of the USSR that were successful ?
Perhaps the secret service ?
And just because one reckons the USSR was a failure does not necessarily imply that ones thinks all elements of the US were all successful and brilliant.

ISAW wrote: »

Indeed but there isn't a capitalist corpo state one either. a lot of the Marxist thinking led to the Labour laws in Europe. In the US they live to work and get the odd weekend off. The idea of six or seven weeks holidays seems insane to them.
Europeans work to enable them to live a decent lifestyle.

Just because someone does not agree with marxist ideas or the USSR role model does not mean one agrees with all the ideas of countries such as the USA.
Why oh why do people always assume this ?

ISAW wrote: »

They will do what they are told. They are authoritarian after all. ( like SF) and it wouldn't be the first time an IRA man was put over the Army.

Is that the SF motto, do as your told or ... ?

LordSutch wrote: »

There are now six 'Sinn Fein' threads running in the Politics forum, whats the story :cool:

Part of the propaganda campaign.