Vets and pet insurance

Qualitymark

I've had my dog insured for many years, and it stood to me after a nasty accident - the operation was totally paid for by the insurance. That's a few years back.

Now the dog is old and getting quite crippled, and the insurance, says the vet, will "pay for every penny" apart from €75 a year.

But the vet insists in being paid in advance, and then he says he'll pay me back when he gets the cheque from the insurance. This basically means I can't afford the treatment.

Has anyone else had this happen? What can you do? Are there good vets who don't insist on up front payment? I'm thinking of changing vets, since this policy means my dog can't get the treatment needed from the vet I've been with for 30 years.

toadfly

A couple of months ago we were told our dog would need an operation to remove a tumor from her face. We had been in and out to the vet three times in about a month so had the €75 excess paid. He just wanted her policy number and said he would wait for the payput from the insurance. We wouldnt have been able to afford to pay for it upfront. Thankfully she didnt need the op in the end.

Have you been with your vet for long? I would think most vets wouldnt expect payment, sure thats why people have insurance because they cant afford the treatment.

What county/city are you in? Someone might be able to recommend a vet.

andreac

But he shouldnt get the cheque? Surely you get the cheque as you have paid the money in the first place?

If he wants you to pay up front, then you claim and get the money back, not him.
I know there are a lot of vets who wont claim directly and make you pay up front. Where are you based?

Its unusual that your vet you have been with for so long is all of a sudden changing it that you have to pay up front.

Qualitymark

I just don't understand it. I've been with the vet 30 years, and he never made demands like this before. He says he has a huge level of bad debts. I suspect that he thinks I'm rich, which I'm not at the moment, alas.

andreac

Unfortunately they are under no obligation to claim directly for you so they can ask you t pay up front. Maybe hes afraid that the claims wont be paid out or something and he will be out of pocket.

If you explain your situation he might come around and be willing to keep going the way you always have. If not then just say that you will have to look elsewhere as you cant afford to pay up front.

What kind of treatment does your dog need, is it very expensive ongoing treatment or something?

Qualitymark

I was frankly astonished at the size of the first claim he made, though perhaps the X-rays made it expensive (I don't know why X-rays are expensive; can't see any reason for it, but they always are.)

After the X-rays, he's giving the dog a monthly anabolic steroid injection, and he recommends four weekly injections too. But he won't tell me the exact price all this will cost.

Oh, and painkiller pills, every day.

andreac

Does he not give you a bill outlining the cost of everything?

X-rays are expensive, can be up to €100 per plate so that would def bring the cost up.
It could be an injection like cartrophen which is dear enough but i would def be asking to see your bill as you are entitled to see what you are being charged.

Qualitymark

No, he doesn't give me a bill. A friend used to go to the same vet (a really good vet, I have to say) and he gave a monthly injection to her cat for €80 a time; then she moved out of the area, and the country vet she moved to charged €20 for the same shot.

I really don't want to change vets - I like this guy and have gone to him with a succession of cats and dogs over the years - but the choices seem to be narrowing down.

Toulouse

Maybe give us an idea of your location and we could recommend someone for you?

It's not easy to change when you've found a vet that you like but nothing you've told us in this thread would lead me to believe he's being above board. Maybe the insurance company are being slow to pay out as he's lodged so many exaggerated claims? In which case I wouldn't be paying him anything up front and I don't think getting a second opinion would hurt either.

Qualitymark

In in Dublin, southside. But I'd need not only a good vet, but one that's registered with the insurance, I think. I organised it through this vet.

I really don't think he's doing anything ... was going to say unethical, but that's the wrong word. He's just got an expensive practice in an upmarket suburb and expenses are high.

andreac

If i was you i would ring around the vets in your area and ask them about the insurance, but there are more and more vets not claiming directly anymore so people have to pay upfront so you might not have a choice really.

Qualitymark

It's not a question of "you don't have a choice".

It's a question of my dog having only what treatment I actually *can* pay for upfront, which is probably about a tenth of what the vet is recommending. In fact, the vet would make a lot more money for the practice by waiting for the insurance cheque.

The vet told me, by the way, that pet insurance, which is a big moneyspinner in Britain where 80% of pet owners insure their pets, doesn't make much for the insurance companies in Ireland, where only 2% of owners do.

Maybe this is because of the Irish vets' stance on upfront payment. If I get another animal ever, I won't be insuring it - it's quite pointless if it works like this.

andreac

What i meant by not having a choice, was not having a choice about paying up front.

I would really be questioning your vet and seeing exactly what he is charging you for the treatment, I wouldnt be happy not knowing what my bills are for treatment for my pets.
They dont have to be registered with insurance, do you mean that they claim directly for you and you dont have to pay upfront? All vets deal with pet insurance but not all will claim directly for you and i know of a lot more that used to do this but have stopped so it might be hard to find one.

At least then you know what he is charging you and you can then go forward and check with other vets what kind of price they would charge you for the same treatment. It could be a lot cheaper and then you could be in a position to pay up front if its not too expensive and then you can claim the money back again.

For all you know, the vet could be sending in ridiculous claims to the insurance companies for treatment and costs that arent even necessary for your dog and maybe as someone else mentioned, the insurance companies are questioning his claims and are reluctant to pay out.
So what i would do is, find out exactly what treatment your dog needs, ie injections etc and ring around other vets and get prices off them.

I def would not be happy with the set up of not knowing what your vet is charging you for each time. Everyone has to pay the excess on their policy so either way you have to fork out 75-100 per condition/claim.

I dont see it as pointless, as you get your money back from the insurance company, its just an inconvenience if you have to pay it up front. But im sure there are other vets locally that allow you to claim directly.

Qualitymark

andreac wrote: »

I dont see it as pointless, as you get your money back from the insurance company, its just an inconvenience if you have to pay it up front.

It's just an inconvenience if you have it! If you don't have it, it means your animal can't get the treatment, even though you've already paid for years of insurance!

andreac

Qualitymark wrote: »

It's just an inconvenience if you have it! If you don't have it, it means your animal can't get the treatment, even though you've already paid for years of insurance!

I understand that, and thats why i advising you to find out exactly what the treatment it is that your pet needs and go from there.

The treatment might not be as expensive as you are thinking it is, it could be your vet claiming for stuff he doesnt need to. Which means you might be able to afford it if you find out what it is and ask other vets and get a few quotes.
Thats all the advice i can give you. But its up to you to go and talk to your vet and ring around other vets in your area.

tk123

Qualitymark wrote: »

But the vet insists in being paid in advance, and then he says he'll pay me back when he gets the cheque from the insurance.

This is the bit that doesn't add up to me - if you're paying you should be getting the cheque! Are you getting a letter from the insurance company saying they're sending the cheque and is it for the same amount you're paying him??

Our vet does direct claim - I pay the excess and sign the form and they send it in. I always get a letter saying they're sending a cheque to the vets. Now when he had his operation last month in the vets in Cork I had to pay up front which was fair enough because it was just 2k but the cheque came to me - not the vet.

toadfly

tk123 wrote: »

Now when he had his operation last month in the vets in Cork I had to pay up front which was fair enough because it was just 2k but the cheque came to me - not the vet.

Thats a mad amount of money:eek:. If I needed to pay that out for an operation I wouldnt have a hope of affording it. Thats why I got insurance.

Qualitymark

andreac wrote: »

I understand that, and thats why i advising you to find out exactly what the treatment it is that your pet needs and go from there.

The treatment might not be as expensive as you are thinking it is, it could be your vet claiming for stuff he doesnt need to. Which means you might be able to afford it if you find out what it is and ask other vets and get a few quotes.
Thats all the advice i can give you. But its up to you to go and talk to your vet and ring around other vets in your area.

Good advice. I'll try this. I've asked the vet to ring me a couple of times and he hasn't rung back yet, but I'll give it one more try.

Tranceypoo

Have you phoned your insurance company and asked them the position, or even if they could recommend a vet in your area?

I have always had pet insurance and actually paid up front and then filled out a claim form and had the cheque sent back to me, not the vets!! My last dog was on a daily heart tablet which cost 28 euro per month, i used to put in a claim once a year for the tablets and get the cheque back, the vets would have to verify/sign the form but it was all above board. I don't know why your vet would say he'd give you the money back when HE got the cheque, if you are paying upfront, YOU should get the cheque, sorry but it sounds to me like he would be pocketing a bit of extra cash there. As Andrea says, you definitely need to find out exactly what your vet is charging for the treatments.

Qualitymark

TillyGirl wrote: »

Thats a mad amount of money:eek:. If I needed to pay that out for an operation I wouldnt have a hope of affording it. Thats why I got insurance.

Exactly my point!

dvet

andreac wrote: »

Maybe hes afraid that the claims wont be paid out or something and he will be out of pocket.

Yup. I've heard that a lot of vets are having problems getting claims approved by the insurance companies. Apparently the insurance companies are doing everything they can to try to weasel out of paying up (and they're very good at it!)

Toulouse wrote: »

Maybe the insurance company are being slow to pay out as he's lodged so many exaggerated claims?

Although some vets probably would chance their arms like this, even honest vets with legitimate treatment claims are getting stung. As far as I've heard it's happening all over the country, even to vets who have very few insured owners, and who barely claim anything.

And if the insurance company doesn't pay out for a big bill, then a lot of the time the owner won't pay up either (won't or can't - there are both types of clients out there!). So that's why a lot of vets are starting to ask for upfront payment - they probably have had huge debts run up over this kind of thing in the last year or 2.

andreac wrote: »

If i was you i would ring around the vets in your area and ask them about the insurance, but there are more and more vets not claiming directly anymore so people have to pay upfront so you might not have a choice really.

+1. There may still be vets near you which will chance claiming directly for you.

Hope it works out for you!

paultf

About a year ago my vets changed the procedure when it came to insurance. Before I just paid the excess and my vets handled the rest. Then my vets said because there was so many insurance companies they insisted all their customers pay up front and if Allianz validated the claim they would send me the check.

(I think Allianz now insist you pay the vet upfront.)

tk123

TillyGirl wrote: »

Thats a mad amount of money:eek:. If I needed to pay that out for an operation I wouldnt have a hope of affording it. Thats why I got insurance.

Well I knew in advance that he'd be needing the op so was able to put money by each month etc Also Allianz are nice and prompt with the payments - the op was paid for on the 13th of Nov and they sent the check on the 22nd.

Qualitymark

No, Allianz don't insist - I rang them, and they said

a) It's up to the vet whether you pay upfront or the vet sends in the form to Allianz; they said some vets are claiming Allianz insists on upfront payment, but *this is not so*.

b) You shouldn't sign a form without seeing what's on it - you shouldn't fill in a blank form that "we'll fill in later" as I'd been doing.

c) If the vet fills in his own practice at the top of the form, the cheque will go to him, if he leaves it blank, the cheque will go to me.

This makes things difficult, as I'm not the one sending in the form.

soph!

We have the same problem my pup is getting on operation on thursday on his leg which is costing us about €1000 and we have to pay it up frount and then claim for it off the insurance the last time they took over 2months to give us the cheque!! we are having to borrow left, right and center as we dont have this money it is such a stupid system!!!!!:mad:

TooManyDogs

This paying up front thing is one of the main reasons I cancelled the insurance on my dogs. It was driving me nuts trying to find the money before hand and then chasing the companies to pay it back. When I asked my vet why they didn't claim directly from the insurance company they said that the company would wiggle out of every claim possible and they'd lost a lot of money for treatments that the insurance then said they wouldnt cover. I had 5 of my 6 dogs insured, the 6th was too old. But then at renewal they would only insure my 5th as long as I understood that anything age related wouldnt be covered, when I queried about car accidents they said that as long as her hearing and sight was perfect then they'd pay but if it was slightly bad they'd put it down to age related accident and not pay!!! :eek:

I set up a savings account for my dogs and all the money I used to pay for the insurance premium and save it every month, and I have an agreement with my vet that if a huge bill arises (fingers crossed it doesnt happen again), then I can pay by installments. I feel much more comfortable with that.

dvet

TooManyDogs wrote: »

I had 5 of my 6 dogs insured, the 6th was too old. But then at renewal they would only insure my 5th as long as I understood that anything age related wouldnt be covered, when I queried about car accidents they said that as long as her hearing and sight was perfect then they'd pay but if it was slightly bad they'd put it down to age related accident and not pay!!! :eek:

Anything AGE RELATED?!!? :eek: :mad:

That makes me so mad!! Not just because it's SO vague that they could put almost anything down to it if they wanted to (even some car accidents as you said - for god's sake!), but also, what is the point of insuring your dog all of it's life, and then the time when it is most likely to actually need insurance, they won't cover any illness it gets. Mad! :mad:

TooManyDogs

dvet wrote: »

Anything AGE RELATED?!!? :eek: :mad:

Yeah, made me furious too. And I lost my microchip and multiple dog discounts, so when I said I was going to move them to a new company for a better price they said there was nothing they could do! So I moved 4 dogs, and had to leave the 5th with them because of age.

Then I just got mad when my renewal came up again and I'd have to move 3 dogs to another new company to get the discount but leave the other 2 policies behind in 2 seperate companies. So thought it'd be cheaper and less confusing to have a savings account!

dvet

Jeebus, I can see where you're coming from! At least your vet is sound enough to let you pay by instalments if you need to! But 6 dogs, wow you must be paying for half of his salary

Edit: just saw your username now... probably should have guessed you'd have alot of dogs!! Hehe

TooManyDogs

dvet wrote: »

At least your vet is sound enough to let you pay by instalments if you need to! But 6 dogs, wow you must be paying for half of his salary

Yeah, they know me very well! And that's only my own dogs, I also foster dogs and have 2 rabbits and 2 sheep and an extremely tolerant hubby, like animal farm here!:D

I'm lucky that mine are really health and beyond the odd cut they dont really get sick. That's partly why I was getting so cross at paying the insurance companies so much money and no guarantee they'd pay out.

Qualitymark

What astonishes me is that vets should expect pet owners to support their balance of payments, after persuading the pet owners to pay €20 a month insurance for many years!

dvet

Qualitymark wrote: »

What astonishes me is that vets should expect pet owners to support their balance of payments, after persuading the pet owners to pay €20 a month insurance for many years!

You mean if the insurance claim doesn't come through? But you hardly expect the vet to get stung with the bill for your dog's treatment?

Also, vets don't make any money out of recommending insurance to owners so it's not like they have some hidden agenda when "persuading" you to get it (if they get anything out of it it's that it allows them to do better diagnostic tests/use better treatments/do surgeries the owner normally couldn't afford - which works out better for everyone.)

(sorry, maybe i'm just not understanding you right)

Qualitymark

dvet wrote: »

You mean if the insurance claim doesn't come through? But you hardly expect the vet to get stung with the bill for your dog's treatment?

I don't, of course. I mean that it's a bit ripe that you have to pay upfront for the treatment, then reclaim the money, when you've already paid insurance for years. It's as if the VHI suddenly announced: "You'll have to pay for the operation, consultant and hospital stay, then claim the money back from us."

dvet

Ah, I get you now. It's a fairly crappy situation alright... More or less makes having insurance useless!

Do you think you can come to any arrangement with your vet about it? Or are you going to try to find a vet without the 'upfront' policy?

Qualitymark

dvet wrote: »

Ah, I get you now. It's a fairly crappy situation alright... More or less makes having insurance useless!

Do you think you can come to any arrangement with your vet about it? Or are you going to try to find a vet without the 'upfront' policy?

I think I'm going to have to change vets. It breaks my heart - this is a great vet, and a nice person - but I'll have to find someone who'll treat pets without being paid upfront. It's either that or limit my pet's treatment to what I can afford to pay for upfront, so there's really no other choice.

dvet

Qualitymark wrote: »

I think I'm going to have to change vets. It breaks my heart - this is a great vet, and a nice person - but I'll have to find someone who'll treat pets without being paid upfront. It's either that or limit my pet's treatment to what I can afford to pay for upfront, so there's really no other choice.

Hopefully you'll be able to find another one who's just as good - best of luck with it

Qualitymark

dvet wrote: »

Hopefully you'll be able to find another one who's just as good - best of luck with it

Thanks!