What the hell are points problems?

gill25

Hi,
my Maynooth train arrived 20 minutes late due to "points problems". It then sat in between Coolmine and Clonsilla for 40 minutes due to "points problems". When it started to move we passed by three IE workers standing at the lights with a sweeping brush. Can anyone enlighten me?

Cookie_Monster

points either freeze and cannot be changed until defrosted or get packed with snow and need to be cleared before they can be moved.

KC61

For a train to switch tracks it must go over a set of points - blades that move.

So if a train is switching tracks the points must be changed. They use an electric motor to do so being worked from a remote signal box.

The motors can freeze in these conditions or the blades get clogged up with snow.

Someone has to go out and manually remove the snow - that's what the guys are doing.

The significant locations for points on that line are Maynooth (where trains swap tracks), Clonsilla (where the M3 Parkway trains join) and outside Connolly.

highnc

AFAIK points are the tracks that switch trains from one track to another and tend to freeze in these conditions. when the points move from track to track at junctions (such as Clonsilla where the Dunboyne and Maynooth tracks split) they move the snow against the other rail which causes them to eventually freeze. the staff at the points are there to remove the build up of snow and apply anti-freeze

gill25

Quick replies, thank you. If its just a matter of sweeping snow away why does it take so long? Maybe if they had a brush each instead sharing one between three!

KC61

gill25 wrote: »

Quick replies, thank you. If its just a matter of sweeping snow away why does it take so long? Maybe if they had a brush each instead sharing one between three!

As pointed out it is not that straightforward.

The actual motors that move the blades can freeze and they need a lot more work than simply sweeping snow away.

Judgement Day

gill25 wrote: »

Hi,
my Maynooth train arrived 20 minutes late due to "points problems". It then sat in between Coolmine and Clonsilla for 40 minutes due to "points problems". When it started to move we passed by three IE workers standing at the lights with a sweeping brush. Can anyone enlighten me?

You can consider yourself lucky that it was only a problem with the points - spare a thought for poor old Reggie Perrin.

"Eleven minutes late..."

Every working day, Reginald Iolanthe Perrin would leave his home at 12, Coleridge Close, Climthorpe, for his place
of work at Sunshine Desserts. He would walk down Coleridge Close, turn right into Tennyson Avenue, left into
Wordsworth Drive, then head for the station to catch the train to London's Waterloo. Every working day, his train
was late. On arrival at the office, Reggie would tell his secretary Joan Greengross the reason for his late arrival.

Series One:
As Reginald Perrin, Sunshine Desserts -

Ep.1 "Eleven minutes late, staff difficulties, Hampton Wick."
Ep.1 "Eleven minutes late, signal failure at Vauxhall."
Ep.1 "Eleven minutes late, staff shortages, Nine Elms."
Ep.1 "Eleven minutes late, derailment of container truck, Raynes Park."
Ep.1 "Eleven minutes late, seasonal manpower shortages, Clapham Junction."
Ep.2 "Eleven minutes late, defective junction box, New Malden."
Ep.4 "Eleven minutes late, overheated axle at Berrylands."
Ep.4 "Eleven minutes late, defective axle at Wandsworth."
Ep.5 "Eleven minutes late, somebody had stolen the lines at Surbiton."


Series Two:
As Martin Wellbourne, Sunshine Desserts -

Ep.1 "Seventeen minutes late, defective bogey at Earlsfield."
Ep.1 "Seventeen minutes late, water seeping through the cables at Effingham Junction - there was a lot of Effingham and a good deal of Blindingham!"


As Reginald Perrin, Perrin Products (Grot) Ltd. -

Ep.4 "Twenty-two minutes late, black ice at Norbiton."
Ep.5 "Twenty-two minutes late, obstacles on the line at Berrylands."
Ep.5 "Twenty-two minutes late, badger ate a junction box at New Malden."
Ep.5 "Twenty-two minutes late, fed up by train delays, came by bike. Slow puncture at Peckham."
Ep.7 "Twenty-two minutes late, escaped puma, Chessington North."


Sorry can't find a working video link.

trad

Points are what stops your train running into an oncoming train.

gill25

Sorry maybe I'm being a bit simplistic but like many people I just get a bit fed up with Iarnrod Eireann. I get the train from Broombridge “station” which has no ticket office, no bench, regularly the lights aren't working and my favourite fact is that after heavy rain, water tends to collect just at the entrance to the Maynooth bound platform so passengers have the choice to walk through a few inches of water or cross the tracks from the other platform. I get the train to Leixlip where people don't seem to work at the ticket desk in the afternoon so there is often a massive queue for the one ticket machine. I have never seen the platform displays working so when the hardworking staff bother to make a muffled announcement regarding late trains there is no indication of when the next train will be. During wet weather there is a single mat at the door of the station and two about ten feet away at the ticket desk. Thankfully there is a handwritten “floor wet” sign behind the ticket office to prevent anyone falling. I’ve always gotten a sense that customer service is not high on the staffs agenda and can’t imagine that there is any great sense of panic today when additional people are depending on their services

Run_to_da_hills

gill25 wrote: »

Sorry maybe I'm being a bit simplistic but like many people I just get a bit fed up with Iarnrod Eireann. I get the train from Broombridge “station” which has no ticket office, no bench, regularly the lights aren't working and my favourite fact is that after heavy rain, water tends to collect just at the entrance to the Maynooth bound platform so passengers have the choice to walk through a few inches of water or cross the tracks from the other platform.

Broombridge has a good chance of being nominated as "station of the year".

You can sing this to yourself next time you hear an announcement that the points are frozen up.

KC61

gill25 wrote: »

Sorry maybe I'm being a bit simplistic but like many people I just get a bit fed up with Iarnrod Eireann. I get the train from Broombridge “station” which has no ticket office, no bench, regularly the lights aren't working and my favourite fact is that after heavy rain, water tends to collect just at the entrance to the Maynooth bound platform so passengers have the choice to walk through a few inches of water or cross the tracks from the other platform. I get the train to Leixlip where people don't seem to work at the ticket desk in the afternoon so there is often a massive queue for the one ticket machine. I have never seen the platform displays working so when the hardworking staff bother to make a muffled announcement regarding late trains there is no indication of when the next train will be. During wet weather there is a single mat at the door of the station and two about ten feet away at the ticket desk. Thankfully there is a handwritten “floor wet” sign behind the ticket office to prevent anyone falling. I’ve always gotten a sense that customer service is not high on the staffs agenda and can’t imagine that there is any great sense of panic today when additional people are depending on their services

There are a few points here:

Broombridge - Every time that station has been tackled by IE it has been vandalised almost immediately including the old booking office being set on fire. No one can say that the company did not try.

Platform Displays - These won't become active until the line is resignalled - funding was withheld for this by the Government

I can't really comment on Leixlip - but it should be staffed. Get in touch with Rail Users Ireland and they will take it up for you.

To be fair just remember that train drivers and gangers had to get up this morning probably earlier than usual to get into work to get the trains out. The gangers who are clearing the points are standing out in blizzard conditions most of the day - perhaps a little bit of thought for them while you are on a warm train?

AlekSmart

To be fair just remember that train drivers and gangers had to get up this morning probably earlier than usual to get into work to get the trains out. The gangers who are clearing the points are standing out in blizzard conditions most of the day - perhaps a little bit of thought for them while you are on a warm train?

Pretty much my sentiments also KC61.

Gill25 initially posed a very pertinent question and recieved some quite detailed answers.

Those responses I would have thought would have satisfied any curiosity relating to the points issue.

The follow up post develops into yet another "Iarnrod Éireann ate my hamster" piece as it outlines,yet again, the all too well known issues with Broombridge Station and surly IE staff etc etc etc....

I second your Rail Users Ireland suggestion !

Cookie_Monster

why are our points so much more susceptible to freezing than the likes of Germany's or Switzerlands? There can't be that great a design difference can there?

Victor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why are our points so much more susceptible to freezing than the likes of Germany's or Switzerlands? There can't be that great a design difference can there?

Because Irish Rail didn't invest in points heaters that would melt the snow / ice.

Run_to_da_hills

Victor wrote: »

Because Irish Rail didn't invest in points heaters that would melt the snow / ice.

|Hardly worth it here for the amount of times we have this weather.

snickerpuss

Victor wrote: »

Because Irish Rail didn't invest in points heaters that would melt the snow / ice.

Apparently points in Drogheda have heaters as they are more susceptible to frost/ice up there. So not strictly true.

parsi

Victor wrote: »

Because Irish Rail didn't invest in points heaters that would melt the snow / ice.

They're in good company there.

Plenty of cancellations in Berlin today due to points failures.

Heisenberg1

Victor wrote: »

Because Irish Rail didn't invest in points heaters that would melt the snow / ice.

Thats not entirley correct IE have WH63 which are fittted with heaters to prevent the motors from freezing,the problem is when there is heavy

snow and the points need to be switched the snow becomes compacted against the blade of the points and the rail it is to switch too which results in the points

not locking into position and the points are gapping which is a major safety risk and no train can pass over them until the points are locked into the required position.

Stonewolf

Heating the motors and heating the points themselves are two different things. In places where it gets dependably snowy point heaters are used to keep the blades free of snow.

CIE

Stonewolf wrote: »

Heating the motors and heating the points themselves are two different things. In places where it gets dependably snowy point heaters are used to keep the blades free of snow.

Correct...and since Ireland isn't used to this kind of weather, the government doesn't think of having IE install points heaters among their other myriad spending (e.g. the all-important paint scheme changes)...

Judgement Day

CIE wrote: »

Correct...and since Ireland isn't used to this kind of weather, the government doesn't think of having IE install points heaters among their other myriad spending (e.g. the all-important paint scheme changes)...

Plus IE need their money for all the Craig Doyle adverts.

gill25

KC61 wrote: »

To be fair just remember that train drivers and gangers had to get up this morning probably earlier than usual to get into work to get the trains out. The gangers who are clearing the points are standing out in blizzard conditions most of the day - perhaps a little bit of thought for them while you are on a warm train?

I think that most people in the country are getting up earlier than usual due to the bad weather. These people are doing their job so are getting paid to stand in the cold. None of the poor passengers get anything for standing in the cold. Most jobs have their bad points. I don't like my job but anytime I give out about it I always think that I am lucky to have a job.I think that there are many people out there at the moment who would do that job in their underwear if it meant they could pay their bills. All I'm asking for is better communication when trains are late. They always seem to say that the train will be twenty minutes late and it could come in a minute or in an hour. Surely they know where the trains are so they should be able to give more accurate information.

markpb

gill25 wrote: »

Surely they know where the trains are so they should be able to give more accurate information.

I guess they don't know how long it will take to remove all the snow from the points, get the motor working again and test them properly before letting a train full of people run all over them.

KC61

gill25 wrote: »

I think that most people in the country are getting up earlier than usual due to the bad weather. These people are doing their job so are getting paid to stand in the cold. None of the poor passengers get anything for standing in the cold. Most jobs have their bad points. I don't like my job but anytime I give out about it I always think that I am lucky to have a job.I think that there are many people out there at the moment who would do that job in their underwear if it meant they could pay their bills. All I'm asking for is better communication when trains are late. They always seem to say that the train will be twenty minutes late and it could come in a minute or in an hour. Surely they know where the trains are so they should be able to give more accurate information.

With respect it is far more complicated than you seem to think.

There are issues with points blades and motors freezing and volumes of snow blocking them. There are also problems with broken track circuits. The latter meaning the electric circuits that allow signalmen to see the train on their screens - if they are broken then nothing can move. Again that needs staff on the ground to clear the problem.

Right now things are operating as soon as they can - very often it impossible to give an exact time.

I genuinely think you are being unfair here. These are extreme conditions and if you honestly think that people out there are not trying to keep the service running as best they can then frankly there is not much hope for you.

I'm a customer in the same way you are - frankly I am glad to be able to get to/from work using public transport - I've had to walk an hour extra each way to do it, but I'm thankful to just get there right now.

Patience is what is required.

goingnowhere

This is not extreme weather, the snow is light by european standards, temperature again isn't as low as is common in central europe

50 minutes late last night, 40 minutes night before

No plan as usual from Irish Rail, no point heaters, no service to Dunboyne despite a under budget project they could have got point heaters, they didn't.

KC61

For a start we are not in Central Europe. By Irish standards, these are extreme conditions. As mentioned above there have been points problems in Central Europe too.

It's not just the motors - it's the blades - there are no heaters that can cope with that - it's down to manually shovelling the snow/ice out. It's also the track circuits.

People need to be patient.

mickydoomsux

goingnowhere wrote: »

This is not extreme weather, the snow is light by european standards, temperature again isn't as low as is common in central europe

50 minutes late last night, 40 minutes night before

No plan as usual from Irish Rail, no point heaters, no service to Dunboyne despite a under budget project they could have got point heaters, they didn't.

Pity this isn't central Europe, so these conditions are extreme for Ireland.

Points heaters wouldn't make much of a difference because it's the actual hard packed snow in the blades of the points that is causing a lot of the problems as previous poster who actually know what they are talking about have pointed out. The points won't lock over fully and CTC won't get dectection on them because the track circuit will be broken.

goingnowhere

They have point heaters in Belfast

If the heater was on the points would never get covered in snow or frozen

Last pic here http://therailwaycutting.blogspot.com/ clearly shows

gill25

KC61 wrote: »

With respect it is far more complicated than you seem to think.

There are issues with points blades and motors freezing and volumes of snow blocking them. There are also problems with broken track circuits. The latter meaning the electric circuits that allow signalmen to see the train on their screens - if they are broken then nothing can move. Again that needs staff on the ground to clear the problem.

Right now things are operating as soon as they can - very often it impossible to give an exact time.

I genuinely think you are being unfair here. These are extreme conditions and if you honestly think that people out there are not trying to keep the service running as best they can then frankly there is not much hope for you.

I'm a customer in the same way you are - frankly I am glad to be able to get to/from work using public transport - I've had to walk an hour extra each way to do it, but I'm thankful to just get there right now.

Patience is what is required.

I work with machinery everyday so I know its not simply a matter of brushing snow off and hey presto. I was being sarcastic when I said why not use three brushes.
I just think that often when there is a problem people are always told there will be a 20 minute delay and an hour later they are still waiting and there has has been no further update. I’m not asking for them to rush a job so that trains can start running as soon as possible, I’m just asking to be kept up to date.

dowlingm

Even here in Toronto where snow is guaranteed the local suburban rail people have only recently had a serious programme of installing points heaters in the last few years. Although it could be said that the heating requirement is a bit more severe here (-20C or so) and thus the heaters perhaps a bit more beefy in power required. Crews with big blowtorches are put to work on those not yet heated.

KC61

gill25 wrote: »

I work with machinery everyday so I know its not simply a matter of brushing snow off and hey presto. I was being sarcastic when I said why not use three brushes.
I just think that often when there is a problem people are always told there will be a 20 minute delay and an hour later they are still waiting and there has has been no further update. I’m not asking for them to rush a job so that trains can start running as soon as possible, I’m just asking to be kept up to date.

The last point I would never argue with.

CIE

goingnowhere wrote: »

This is not extreme weather, the snow is light by european standards, temperature again isn't as low as is common in central europe

Ireland isn't Central Europe. This kind of weather is extremely uncommon. It's like expecting tropical heatwaves every summer. Frankly, IE have done quite well even without points heaters; either way, such ought to be in stock as portable devices IMO.

Incidentally, last winter, even the railways in central Europe didn't do as well as they should have. The ICE services in Germany were hobbled by heavy snowfall and overhead wire icing (the latter should have been easily scraped away by raising extra pantographs). Even during the summer, there was trouble (the older ICE trains had air conditioning units that were effective only up to 32 degrees Centigrade, so during the last heatwave they failed and interior temps went all the way up to 50°C).

killbillvol2

I love the way people whose only source of knowledge is the Indo and the local pub come on here pontificating about what should be done and asserting that "it wouldn't happen in Germany/Switzerland(insert other country they've never been to)".

Having lived in both Germany and Switzerland I can assure you that their rail systems are affected by adverse weather too.