Has landlord failed in his obligation?

contraflow

Just moved into a new place with my girlfriend. The LL told us when we viewed the place that the 2 showers were electric. They look like electric showers, so we didn't think to try them out, a big mistake on our part.

Now that we have moved in we have discovered that the showers are in fact power showers and the water needs to heated up via immersion before we can have a shower. I had never encountered a power shower before and didn't know they looked exactly like an electric shower.

You could say we are pissed off, as the 2 electric showers were a major selling point for us, and to find out they don't exist when we were specifically told they were electric makes us feel like we were duped.

I asked the LL about a rent reduction given we were mislead about the standard of the accommodation or, if that was unacceptable, that we go our separate ways with him returning the deposit and overpaid-rent to us. We thought this fair as we were hoodwinked into moving in which we wouldn't have done had we known about the showers. He fobbed us off and is not taking our request seriously.

We have a 1yr lease but would like to break it as we no longer trust the LL nor like the property.

According to Threshold:
A tenant cannot avail of the notice periods where they are bound by a fixed term lease which they signed. They can, however, end the tenancy where the landlord is in breach of an obligation and where they have written to the landlord regarding the breach and giving the landlord an opportunity to rectify the position.

Given the above, is the LL in breach of an obligation and is it worth our time starting the process of ending the tenancy in the fashion described above??

Cathmandooo

imo it really doesnt sound like a reason to be able to break a fixed term lease.

What's the problem with using the immersion?

You made the mistake of not knowing the difference, who's to say your landlord just thought something similar, it's an electric box in the shower.

Is there another reason why you want to break the lease? I just can't understand how that is such a dealbreaker.

gossipgal08

You cant have two electric showers in a house. If they were both turned on at the same time they would blow the electrics. There is usually a power shower and an electric shower.

ztoical

contraflow wrote: »

Given the above, is the LL in breach of an obligation and is it worth our time starting the process of ending the tenancy in the fashion described above??

The LL's obligation under the law regarding showers is:

Provide a separate ventilated room with a bath or shower and toilet

They aren't obligated to provide electric showers just a working shower so you can't end the tenancy for breach of obligation.

Does your lease state 'electric shower' anywhere? You can try speaking to threashold or the PRTB but it could come down to a case of the LL saying they didn't understand or got confused between power shower and electric shower and you viewed the place and saw the showers.

contraflow

I'd prefer if this thread didn't turn into an argument about the merits of which is better an electric shower or an immersion shower. I have been using electric showers for 15 yrs and prefer them. You get higher more constant water temperature, you don't have to wait around for the immersion to heat up, no running out of water half way through as your are the 2nd person to take a shower.

Of the 2 showers in the appartment only the one nearer the immersion heats up fully, so in reality we have been using only one shower.

This is all besides the point. The point is we specifically requested and wanted electric showers, as that is our preference, and we were specifically told we would get 2 electric showers.

Is the LL not obliged to advertise and inform prospective tenants about a property in a truthful fashion?

contraflow

gossipgal08 wrote: »

You cant have two electric showers in a house. If they were both turned on at the same time they would blow the electrics. There is usually a power shower and an electric shower.

I thought it was possible to have 2 if you had the correct electrical set up? I'm not a sparks so I don't know for sure. Again we were told they were both electric by the LL which was not true.

ztoical

contraflow wrote: »

Is the LL not obliged to advertise and inform prospective tenants about a property in a truthful fashion?

You can complain to advertisting standards regarding a misleading ad but if you viewd the property and then signed a lease it is the lease that takes precedence and unless the lease clearly states two electric showers the LL is not in breach of the lease.

contraflow

ztoical wrote: »

The LL's obligation under the law regarding showers is:

Provide a separate ventilated room with a bath or shower and toilet

They aren't obligated to provide electric showers just a working shower so you can't end the tenancy for breach of obligation.

Does your lease state 'electric shower' anywhere? You can try speaking to threashold or the PRTB but it could come down to a case of the LL saying they didn't understand or got confused between power shower and electric shower and you viewed the place and saw the showers.

I am not asking if the LL failed in his obligation to provide a decent standard shower. I am asking if he failed in his obligation to inform prospective tenants about the property in a truthful fashion.

As an example: you ask a LL was the central heating gas or electric, and he informed you it was gas, as that was your preference. Then upon moving in you discover it is actually electric heating, are you entitled to break the lease as he mislead you??? It's not that electric central heating isn't satisfactory, it's that he mislead you in to moving in by telling you it was gas central heating.

This is what happened to us, we wouldn't have moved in as an electric shower is our preference, it might not be everyones, but it is ours. The fact that we were mislead about it is doubly galling. How are we supposed to have a relationship with the LL if this is how he behaves??

contraflow

ztoical wrote: »

You can complain to advertisting standards regarding a misleading ad but if you viewd the property and then signed a lease it is the lease that takes precedence and unless the lease clearly states two electric showers the LL is not in breach of the lease.

That's quite depressing. He can basically tell us anything he likes to get us to sign the lease and once signed we have no come back.

I'll call Threshold/PRTB 2moro as you advised and see what they say.

ztoical

contraflow wrote: »

I am not asking if the LL failed in his obligation to provide a decent standard shower. I am asking if he failed in his obligation to inform prospective tenants about the property in a truthful fashion.

As an example: you ask a LL was the central heating gas or electric, and he informed you it was gas, as that was your preference. Then upon moving in you discover it is actually electric heating, are you entitled to break the lease as he mislead you??? It's not that electric central heating isn't satisfactory, it's that he mislead you in to moving in by telling you it was gas central heating.

This is what happened to us, we wouldn't have moved in as an electric shower is our preference, it might not be everyones, but it is ours. The fact that we were mislead about it is doubly galling. How are we supposed to have a relationship with the LL if this is how he behaves??

Your taking about different areas. Advertising a property vs the actual rental of it. As your LL they only have obligations to you as per the lease signed.

In your example if the person did not view the property to make sure nor make it was electric not gas and/or didn't have a clause in the lease that electric central heating be provided then they may be able to take the advertister to the National Consumer Agency and small claims court over the ad but they can't break the lease as long as the LL fullfills his obligations as per the lease signed.

Cathmandooo

Do you have a copy of the original ad?

In your original post you mention asking the LL for a rent reduction? How does that solve your shower problem?

See what the PRTB/Threshold say to you anyway. If you're stuck with your lease (which I think you are) then all you have to do is ask for the immersion to be fixed so that it provides hot water to both showers. Make sure there's a timer on the immersion so there's no 'waiting around' as you say. Plenty of people use immersion timers and don't have to wait around for water if you set it correctly. There's 2 of your problems with power showers fixed?!

djimi

Set the immersion to heat the water overnight; so long as youre not taking 30 minute showers you should have hot water most of the day.

Pkiernan

contraflow wrote: »

...Given the above, is the LL in breach of an obligation and is it worth our time starting the process of ending the tenancy in the fashion described above??

The LL is not in breach of any obligation.

If you were to move out now, he would retain your security deposit, and you would have to proceed against him thru the PRTB or the Courts to get it back.

This process would take a considerable amount of time, and even with the PRTB being unfairly biased towards tenants, it would be unlikely that you would succeed.

littleredspot

Is there a case where the landlord hasn't lied? As in they are "electric showers"

From your description they are electrically pumped showers. They are not instantaneous electric showers (which is what you want) They are also not the old fashioned phone on a hose type. Semantics I know but if you're going to be trying to escape a lease on a technicality it might come into play.

Also as posted above its very unusual to get 2 instantaneous electric showers in a house, (because of wiring difficulties)

Scambuster

Move out, stop paying rent, put up with it. Limitless options really.

D3PO

you dont trust him because he made the same assumption that you did when you viewed the property in regards to the shower ??

Unless your lease specificially mentions 2 power showers then tough luck.

And your talking through your backside when you say the electric showers were a MAJOR selling point for you. Thats just not credible and if you expect anybody to believe that then you really must have a dim view of the boardsies.

Nobody rents specifically becasue the accomadation has electric showers, and honestly if that was the case then you need to move back in with your parents becasue you dont know what you should be looking for when living in the big bad world and would be better back with them till you understand how the real world works.

When tennants whine over something so trivial no wonder landlords are slow to bother fixing things for them.

MazG

Nobody rents specifically becasue the accomadation has electric showers

Eh - not quite true, I reckon. When I was moving apartments earlier this year, I asked the agent (if we were pretty interested in a particular flat) if I could turn on the shower to see how well it works. Any apartments with dribbly showers got crossed off the list!

In the case of the OP, however, I appreciate that it is frustrating, but I can't see how the Landlord isn't fulfilling his obilgations. If the landlord was deliberately misleading, well then he's not a very nice guy, but as far as I can see, it doesn't invalidate the lease agreement.

Kimia

Aren't immersions more expensive to run?

To the OP - we have an electric shower and a power shower and the power shower is WAY better in terms of water pressure and heat etc. If you have a timer (if it's a modern apartment it should) you can set the immersion to come on an hour before you get up in the morning. We never even worry about ours anymore and we always have hot showers in the morning.

ricman

Turn on immersion for 50 mins, that should be enough for 2 showers,say ten mins in an average shower.
IF YOU have central heating on,in the winter for say 2 hours, it may heat the water without the immersion.
i dont see the big deal, theres little difference between the cost of immersion versus power showers.its very difficult to install 2 power showers in 1 apartment, re wiring , power load etc.
you can move out after a year ,if its really important too you,give 6 weeks,notice to the landlord be4 moving.
my sister has 2 showers in her gaff,one power, one works off immersion.
i used both,frankly i can hardly tell the difference between em, apart from you have to remember switch on the immersion.

djimi

MazG wrote: »

Eh - not quite true, I reckon. When I was moving apartments earlier this year, I asked the agent (if we were pretty interested in a particular flat) if I could turn on the shower to see how well it works. Any apartments with dribbly showers got crossed off the list!

I do the same, but when there is poor pressure in the shower it is usually an indication of a faulty water pump I reckon. In an apartment there is no excuse for an shower to have bad pressure.

gibo_ie

In fairness, as stated the landlord probably thought the same as you when he seen it. This should not be a major issue but if it is for you and your tenancy has lasted less than 6 months then you can terminate it without reason once you give the landlord written notice stating you wish to leave and you give them 28 days (for less than 6 months (source www.prtb.ie))

So if your not happy, write the letter and leave. Your deposit will be refunded within a resonable time (usually 7 days) as long as no damage done or no outstanding bills left behind. You WONT get a refund in rent because of this, to think otherwise would be very foolish.

ztoical

gibo_ie wrote: »

In fairness, as stated the landlord probably thought the same as you when he seen it. This should not be a major issue but if it is for you and your tenancy has lasted less than 6 months then you can terminate it without reason once you give the landlord written notice stating you wish to leave and you give them 28 days (for less than 6 months (source www.prtb.ie))

So if your not happy, write the letter and leave. Your deposit will be refunded within a resonable time (usually 7 days) as long as no damage done or no outstanding bills left behind. You WONT get a refund in rent because of this, to think otherwise would be very foolish.

That is for a 4 part tenancy, the OP from his posts I assume signed a fixed term lease.

djimi

gibo_ie wrote: »

In fairness, as stated the landlord probably thought the same as you when he seen it. This should not be a major issue but if it is for you and your tenancy has lasted less than 6 months then you can terminate it without reason once you give the landlord written notice stating you wish to leave and you give them 28 days (for less than 6 months (source www.prtb.ie))

So if your not happy, write the letter and leave. Your deposit will be refunded within a resonable time (usually 7 days) as long as no damage done or no outstanding bills left behind. You WONT get a refund in rent because of this, to think otherwise would be very foolish.

They have a fixed term lease. This does not apply.

gibo_ie

ok, i missed the fact it was a fixed term.
Simple solution:

"Similarly, a tenant can only terminate a fixed term tenancy where there the landlord has been in breach of his or her obligations.
6 In addition however, where the landlord has refused consent to an assignment or sub-let, the tenant can also terminate the tenancy, in accordance with Section 186."

As a landlord i know this is they way they can do it simply enough as most landlords wont want an assignment or a sub-lease...

MazG

djimi wrote: »

I do the same, but when there is poor pressure in the shower it is usually an indication of a faulty water pump I reckon. In an apartment there is no excuse for an shower to have bad pressure.

Agreed.

However, the point I was trying to make is that a shower that meets the standards of potentional tenants can be a deal-breaker

ForestFire

contraflow wrote: »

I thought it was possible to have 2 if you had the correct electrical set up? I'm not a sparks so I don't know for sure. Again we were told they were both electric by the LL which was not true.

Slightly off topic but yes it is possible to have two electric showers in one house. There is a special automatic switch needed for the fuse board that will only allow one shower on at a time. (If one shower on, other can not be switched on)

Sorry can't help with main problem:(

sam34

D3PO wrote: »

And your talking through your backside when you say the electric showers were a MAJOR selling point for you. Thats just not credible and if you expect anybody to believe that then you really must have a dim view of the boardsies.

Nobody rents specifically becasue the accomadation has electric showers, and honestly if that was the case then you need to move back in with your parents becasue you dont know what you should be looking for when living in the big bad world and would be better back with them till you understand how the real world works.

When tennants whine over something so trivial no wonder landlords are slow to bother fixing things for them.

it might be a "trivial" issue for you, but it's not for many people.

i wouldnt rent a place that didnt have an electric shower, as it's simply much more convenient.

it's one of the first things I check about a potential rented property.

tigerblob

djimi wrote: »

Set the immersion to heat the water overnight; so long as youre not taking 30 minute showers you should have hot water most of the day.

I don't know what universe you live in, but in mine the electricity bill would be through the roof if I did that!

GerardKeating

gossipgal08 wrote: »

You cant have two electric showers in a house. If they were both turned on at the same time they would blow the electrics. There is usually a power shower and an electric shower.

Not true, last house I was in had two electric showers and occasionally both were used at the same time.

Avns1s

GerardKeating wrote: »

Not true, last house I was in had two electric showers and occasionally both were used at the same time.

Well they shouldn't have been and its against all regulations to have them wired such that they can both be on at the same time.

A 9 KW Shower works of about 40A, this is 80A for the pair and this does not include any lights, heaters, etc that might be runing as well. The normal supply to a domestic installation is fused by the ESB at 63A. The maths are pretty simple.

It is for this reason that an installation must be wired with switching gear which prevents both shoers being on at the same time.

djimi

tigerblob wrote: »

I don't know what universe you live in, but in mine the electricity bill would be through the roof if I did that!

In my old place my bills were 45 per month. In my new place its 80 per month but thats 2 of us with the electric heating on a lot more. If youu have nightsaver rate electricit then its not that expensive to have the immersion on overnight. If you can time it then 2 hours before you wake up should be sufficient.

Pkiernan

Avns1s wrote: »

Well they shouldn't have been and its against all regulations to have them wired such that they can both be on at the same time.

A 9 KW Shower works of about 40A, this is 80A for the pair and this does not include any lights, heaters, etc that might be runing as well. The normal supply to a domestic installation is fused by the ESB at 63A. The maths are pretty simple.

It is for this reason that an installation must be wired with switching gear which prevents both shoers being on at the same time.

This is the best and most accurate post of this thread so far.

johnnyskeleton

ztoical wrote: »

They aren't obligated

That's the second time I've seen the word obligated in this forum. Why the American English?

lucernarian

Avns1s wrote: »

Well they shouldn't have been and its against all regulations to have them wired such that they can both be on at the same time.

A 9 KW Shower works of about 40A, this is 80A for the pair and this does not include any lights, heaters, etc that might be runing as well. The normal supply to a domestic installation is fused by the ESB at 63A. The maths are pretty simple.

It is for this reason that an installation must be wired with switching gear which prevents both shoers being on at the same time.

It is incorrect to say that it is against all regulations. If someone obtains an enhanced supply off the ESB, then the main ESB supplied fuse is upped to 80 Amps, possibly among other changes to the supply end. The ESB themselves say that such an installation or upgrade is suitable for those wishing to power 2 simultaneous electric showers.

ztoical

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

That's the second time I've seen the word obligated in this forum. Why the American English?

Cus I did my BA degree in America and it's force of habbit.

Avns1s

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

It is incorrect to say that it is against all regulations. If someone obtains an enhanced supply off the ESB, then the main ESB supplied fuse is upped to 80 Amps, possibly among other changes to the supply end. The ESB themselves say that such an installation or upgrade is suitable for those wishing to power 2 simultaneous electric showers.

I wonder what percentage of domestic installations have this enhanced supply? Very few, I would think.

Xiney

Just putting up another hand for non electric showers being a deal breaker.

(other deal breakers: carpets, those awful couches with wooden armrests, combination washer/dryers or no dryer)

ricman

its an easy mistake to make, power shower ,s look almost identical, to immersion showers, I didnt know till my sister told me to switch on immersion,30 mins be4 i use it,THAT it was not a powershower..But its up to the prospective tenant to check before renting or signing the lease, what facilitys the apartment has.