Irish Times: Prison chaplain comments on state of the prisons

Bill2673

So this isn't really a post about prisons, its more about Irish people.

The Irish Times ran a good article yesterday on prison conditions, and report by chaplain prisons on overcrowding, drug abuse and the generally pitiful state of the prisons.

Now I've searched high and low, but as far as I can see there hasn't been a single comment about on Boards.

The article is linked here.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1130/1224284431332.html

I thought it might warrant attention if for nothing else their comment on the outgoing Min for Justice Dermot Ahern.

"The chaplains were disappointed the Minister for Justice declined to meet them after the publication of their last report.
They also noted that a decision to build a prison in Thornton Hall, north Dublin, “resulted in millions of public funding being spent on a site that now stands idle”. This “stands in stark contrast to the mattress-strewn floors of our prisons”, they said."

But my overall feeling is this: if the attitudes on Boards is a microcosm, or sample, of the attitudes of the irish public at large.....then how can there be nobody out there who has bothered to comment on it. Its a shocking article, about something that is happening in our society. Why don't people care about it?

I've been following this site now for about six months; and I'm sorry to say that its made me a lot gloomier about the society I live in. People are very happy to knock the govt for austerity measures that hurt the weakest and most marginalised people in society. But whenever a discussion comes up about those poor and marginalised people, contributors on this website are only too happy to give out about them.....whether that be drug addicts, beggars, travellers, Romanians, social welfare recipients, single mothers, door to door sales people.

And articles like this one get no comment whatsoever amongst the thousands of daily comments ..... I noticed a similar thing recently with the floods in Pakistan, a massive humaniarian disaster, didn't get hardly a single comment.

I dunno.....makes me wonder.

Now if there is a big long thread on the subject of Irish prisons, I'll eat humple pie. I looked and couldnt find one.

Thanks in advance to all those posting the inevitable smart ass comments.

Ash.J.Williams

Spending 30m on a field really bothered me back then, as for prisons, it's difficult to understand the conditions unless you've been there, or read in depth reports.

Greyfox

Bill2673 wrote: »

Its a shocking article, about something that is happening in our society. Why don't people care about it?

Because the vast majority of prisoners in these prisons are scumbags and I don't really care about the rights of scumbags, I personally think they deserve to be treated very poorly. If their crime involved murder, rape, drug dealing or robbing a house I'd be in favour of making their time in prison even more miserable as it's nothing compared to what they put their victims through

The article is nowhere near as shocking as the many examples of the Irish legal system been far to lenient which have been posted on boards in recent times

goose2005

I'd be more concerned about the conditions in mental hospitals - they have done no wrong and suffer far more, and are often even worse off than prisoners.

Nodin

Greyfox wrote: »

Because the vast majority of prisoners in these prisons are scumbags and I don't really care about the rights of scumbags, I personally think they deserve to be treated very poorly. If their crime involved murder, rape, drug dealing or robbing a house I'd be in favour of making their time in prison even more miserable as it's nothing compared to what they put their victims through

The article is nowhere near as shocking as the many examples of the Irish legal system been far to lenient which have been posted on boards in recent times

And that short sighted 'retributive' attitude is I believe the reason the OP is looking for...

Dudess

Bill2673 wrote: »

So this isn't really a post about prisons, its more about Irish people.

The Irish Times ran a good article yesterday on prison conditions, and report by chaplain prisons on overcrowding, drug abuse and the generally pitiful state of the prisons.

Now I've searched high and low, but as far as I can see there hasn't been a single comment about on Boards.

The article is linked here.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1130/1224284431332.html

I thought it might warrant attention if for nothing else their comment on the outgoing Min for Justice Dermot Ahern.

"The chaplains were disappointed the Minister for Justice declined to meet them after the publication of their last report.
They also noted that a decision to build a prison in Thornton Hall, north Dublin, “resulted in millions of public funding being spent on a site that now stands idle”. This “stands in stark contrast to the mattress-strewn floors of our prisons”, they said."

But my overall feeling is this: if the attitudes on Boards is a microcosm, or sample, of the attitudes of the irish public at large.....then how can there be nobody out there who has bothered to comment on it. Its a shocking article, about something that is happening in our society. Why don't people care about it?

I've been following this site now for about six months; and I'm sorry to say that its made me a lot gloomier about the society I live in. People are very happy to knock the govt for austerity measures that hurt the weakest and most marginalised people in society. But whenever a discussion comes up about those poor and marginalised people, contributors on this website are only too happy to give out about them.....whether that be drug addicts, beggars, travellers, Romanians, social welfare recipients, single mothers, door to door sales people.

And articles like this one get no comment whatsoever amongst the thousands of daily comments ..... I noticed a similar thing recently with the floods in Pakistan, a massive humaniarian disaster, didn't get hardly a single comment.

I dunno.....makes me wonder.

Now if there is a big long thread on the subject of Irish prisons, I'll eat humple pie. I looked and couldnt find one.

Thanks in advance to all those posting the inevitable smart ass comments.

They're not commented on in After Hours anyway because it's far more effective rabble-rousing to go on about prisons providing Playstations, Sky TV, state-of-the-art gyms and all that sh1te...

DubiousV

I for one would have some difficulty lending credence to the opinions of a group of people who suggest 50% remission on the sanction of those who commit the worst possible crimes. Do we really need the clergy telling us that child molesters should be freed after serving only half a sentence? Enough is enough, if you do the crime you should pay the price...in full.

twowheelsonly

Greyfox wrote: »

Because the vast majority of prisoners in these prisons are scumbags and I don't really care about the rights of scumbags, I personally think they deserve to be treated very poorly. If their crime involved murder, rape, drug dealing or robbing a house I'd be in favour of making their time in prison even more miserable as it's nothing compared to what they put their victims through

The article is nowhere near as shocking as the many examples of the Irish legal system been far to lenient which have been posted on boards in recent times

I've been working in Prisons for a good number of years and I'd be willing to argue that statement with you until the cows come home.
Yes, there are more than a fair share of scumbags there but in no way are they the 'vast' majority. A huge amount are just what we call 'Jail Fools'. They may spend a couple of years in and out of jail but once they turn 23/4/5 we never see them again. Just takes them a bit longer to get a bit of cop-on than many of their peers. Thousands more are committed for fines be it for Public Order, No TV licence or tax and insurance amongst others.

caseyann

twowheelsonly wrote: »

I've been working in Prisons for a good number of years and I'd be willing to argue that statement with you until the cows come home.
Yes, there are more than a fair share of scumbags there but in no way are they the 'vast' majority. A huge amount are just what we call 'Jail Fools'. They may spend a couple of years in and out of jail but once they turn 23/4/5 we never see them again. Just takes them a bit longer to get a bit of cop-on than many of their peers. Thousands more are committed for fines be it for Public Order, No TV licence or tax and insurance amongst others.

I have big problem with that, shouldn't non dangerous people for such offences not be incarcerated with higher profile or dangerous people?
And to the prisons.I am sorry what they want hotel suites with en-suite bathrooms?

later12

My mother was the Quaker representative on a prisoner visiting committee for years and like the religious chaplains, and the then Inspector of Prisons (the great Judge Dermot Kinlen if anyone remembers that wonderful, compassionate man) their recommendations went totally unheard year upon year.

Eventually she gave up the role because it was pointless and depressing and started teaching business and horticulture to some of them instead.

The problem, largely, is the public. People tend not to care about prisoner rehabilitation. It's ironic really, because the one time you have these guys at your fingertips, when you really have the power to do something with them, teach them, improve them and change their lives around what do we do?

Ignore them and let them out again unchanged. It is truly depressing.

Dudess

caseyann wrote: »

And to the prisons.I am sorry what they want hotel suites with en-suite bathrooms?

Ok, you've got overcrowding and squalour, and you've got hotel en-suite rooms... and then there's a whole great big ocean in between. It's not like there's only one option or the other, so no, luxury en-suite rooms is not what some people here are advocating for prisoners.
Mountjoy has a pretty bad reputation abroad too as an awful hole of a place - this Playstation stuff is believed though, probably better drama.

RandolphEsq

An old relation of mine used to compile reports on the state of prisons back in McDowell's stint as Minister for Justice, and it's unfortunately safe to say that he was just as ignorant to the findings. Parts were censored, and the recommendations were never taken into account.

I think it is an absolute disgrace that a so called 'Minister' can't even acknowledge the publishing of the report. Shows exactly how prisoners are treated by society when, for the vast majority of them, the crimes are not far beyond petty; i.e. the lads slipped up once. But even still, to hear of a slop bucket not being emptied, and being shared! And prisoners not even getting a mattress! It sounds like A&E! But seriously, enough of a fuss is not being made about it and stereotypes about prisoners have to change. What we have is prisons breeding more crime.

Sleepy

twowheelsonly wrote: »

A huge amount are just what we call 'Jail Fools'. They may spend a couple of years in and out of jail but once they turn 23/4/5 we never see them again. Just takes them a bit longer to get a bit of cop-on than many of their peers.

Or they learn how not to get caught next time.

Prison time should not be being used to punish people who can't pay their debts, don't buy their TV license etc.

Bill2673

Greyfox wrote: »

Because the vast majority of prisoners in these prisons are scumbags and I don't really care about the rights of scumbags, I personally think they deserve to be treated very poorly. If their crime involved murder, rape, drug dealing or robbing a house I'd be in favour of making their time in prison even more miserable as it's nothing compared to what they put their victims through

Ok, so I don't really know if this guy is trolling or if thats what he really believes, but it doesn't really matter since its fairly typical response and its the type of attitude I was talking about.

The point of the original post was two fold; firstly it was the general public indifference to the prisons report; and second it was my disillusionment with the attitudes of Irish people, as displayed on this website. Judging by what I've read on boards in recent months, you could take the first sentence above:

"Because the vast majority of prisoners are scumbags and I don't really care about the rights of scumbags, I personally think they deserve to be treated very poorly".

and replace it with the word

"Because the vast majority of drug addicts are scumbags and I don't really care about the rights of scumbags, I personally think they deserve to be treated very poorly".

or

"Because the vast majority of taxi drivers are scumbags and I don't really care about the rights of scumbags, I personally think they deserve to be treated very poorly".

or

"Because the vast majority of single mothers on social welfare are scumbags and I don't really care about the rights of scumbags, I personally think they deserve to be treated very poorly".

or

"Because the vast majority of Airtricity vendors are scumbags and I don't really care about the rights of scumbags, I personally think they deserve to be treated very poorly".

And I could go on.....and on ....and on.....

And thats the position of Irish people......take the most marginalised or most oppressed or most poor or the most lowly paid.....and piss on them.

Judging by the attitude in the post above.....why would you bother building prisons....why wouldn't you just round up all prisoners and put them in a big pit and fill it up with muck?

Never mind that this guy has never been in a prison. never mind that he probably doesn't know anyone who's been to prison, except maybe some cousin of his brother's friend......never mind that another contributor who has worked in prisons says something quite different.

I think in society that we either have compassion or we don't.

And in this society, judging by what I see on boards, it appears that we don't.

Anyway, sorry I couldn't go on a more aggresive rant. The snow has me in a good mood.

Dudess

Dudess wrote: »

Ok, you've got overcrowding and squalour, and you've got hotel en-suite rooms... and then there's a whole great big ocean in between. It's not like there's only one option or the other, so no, luxury en-suite rooms is not what some people here are advocating for prisoners.
Mountjoy has a pretty bad reputation abroad too as an awful hole of a place - this Playstation stuff is believed though, probably better drama.

Never let logic and reality get in the way of a nice sensational 'Joe Duffy' statement. Having been inside Mountjoy prison (as a visitor) I can safely say its a complete kip. I dont think its a great strech to have basic santiary requirements taken care of; toilets being the top of the list.

It's funny that hotel rooms with ensuites are mentioned. The womens prison is nicer than some hostels Ive stayed in. I have no doubt that if the situation were the reverse, womens rights groups would be quick to invoke equality legislation against discrimination.

Greyfox

Bill2673 wrote: »

Ok, so I don't really know if this guy is trolling or if thats what he really believes, but it doesn't really matter since its fairly typical response and its the type of attitude I was talking about.

The point of the original post was two fold; firstly it was the general public indifference to the prisons report; and second it was my disillusionment with the attitudes of Irish people, as displayed on this website. Judging by what I've read on boards in recent months, you could take the first sentence above:

"Because the vast majority of prisoners are scumbags and I don't really care about the rights of scumbags, I personally think they deserve to be treated very poorly".

and replace it with the word

"Because the vast majority of drug addicts are scumbags and I don't really care about the rights of scumbags, I personally think they deserve to be treated very poorly".

I think in society that we either have compassion or we don't.

And in this society, judging by what I see on boards, it appears that we don't.

Bill, that's what I really believe and I find it a bit insulting to be accused of trolling.

I'm glad and very relieved a lot of people feel indifferent to the report as theirs far more important things for our country to be concerned about. The reason I don't care about scumbags in prison is because our legal system is a joke, guarenteed to get off early for good behaviour instead of it been based on wheter or not you behave, people walking the streets with 70+ previous convictions and very lenient sentences for a lot of crimes including rape. Also concurrent sentences are a joke.

A MAJOR problem we have in this country is too many people care more about how "little Johny came from a bad backround and is actually a decent guy" then they do about the suffering of victims

Were pretty lenient when it comes to a criminals first offence so most scumbags are given a good chance of avoiding prison even though they have committed a crime which lends to the fact that the majority of people in prison deserve to be their and need to be punished. I feel sorry for prisoners who are their for not paying fines etc, they simply should not be in prison and are not scumbags.

Yes mount joy is a truely horrible place but some people deserve to be put in a truely horrible place, I don't see the point in spending more money on scumbags when Ireland is full of disadvantaged people that would be much more deserving of this money.

I think as a society we have a lot of compassion but their are some groups like drug addicts who just cause far too much trouble for the majority of people to feel sorry for them

Nodin

Greyfox wrote: »

Yes mount joy is a truely horrible place but some people deserve to be put in a truely horrible place, ...........

...but surely you'd accept that not everyone who finds their way into Mountjoy is of the same level.....

Dudess

Deleted User wrote: »

It's funny that hotel rooms with ensuites are mentioned. The womens prison is nicer than some hostels Ive stayed in. I have no doubt that if the situation were the reverse, womens rights groups would be quick to invoke equality legislation against discrimination.

What would men's rights groups do?

Dudess

Greyfox wrote: »

A MAJOR problem we have in this country is too many people care more about how "little Johny came from a bad backround and is actually a decent guy" then they do about the suffering of victims

I rarely hear of that tbh - and all I hear in that vein is more about how it's not an excuse but it is an explanation and maybe energy going into tackling the problems that lead to these crimes in the first place might help prevent them.

I feel sorry for prisoners who are their for not paying fines etc, they simply should not be in prison and are not scumbags.

Why not? I certainly think e.g. someone who dodges fine after fine after fine after fine is pretty underhanded.

I don't see the point in spending more money on scumbags when Ireland is full of disadvantaged people that would be much more deserving of this money.

Many of those "scumbags" though are also disadvantaged - one and the same. Again, it's no justification, but it does go towards some way towards explaining.

I think as a society we have a lot of compassion but their are some groups like drug addicts who just cause far too much trouble for the majority of people to feel sorry for them

Again, I'd have put drug addicts into the category that deserves compassion - not that there aren't lowlives among them, but some of them come from circumstances many of us here cannot even barely comprehend.

Greyfox

Dudess wrote: »

Why not? I certainly think e.g. someone who dodges fine after fine after fine after fine is pretty underhanded.

They are but they should be doing lots of community service instead, it seems like a silly waste of tax-payers money to have them in prison. Also their will be some people who genuinely were unable to pay these fines due to the resession and it seems unfair to have them mixing with a drug addict who robbed and battered an old lady. I accept that if they refuse community service prison may be the only other option left

Dudess wrote: »

Many of those "scumbags" though are also disadvantaged - one and the same. Again, it's no justification, but it does go towards some way towards explaining.

It does go towards explaining it but the majority of people who come from a disadvantaged backround turn out ok which is why a big part of the blame lies with the criminal

Dudess wrote: »

Again, I'd have put drug addicts into the category that deserves compassion - not that there aren't lowlives among them, but some of them come from circumstances many of us here cannot even barely comprehend.

I wouldn't, I see far too many junkies ruining Dublins city centre every day to agree with you, I've known too many people who have been robbed by junkies to feel compassion. Yes a small minority can genuinely use their circumstances as an excuse but the vast majority of people knew why drugs were illegal and made the choice to take drugs, these people have themselves to blame for their addiction. Drug addicts ruin too many peoples lives for me to care about them

twowheelsonly

Sleepy wrote: »

Or they learn how not to get caught next time.

In fairness, I honestly believe that 90% of them just get a bit of cop-on.

Greyfox wrote: »

I think as a society we have a lot of compassion but their are some groups like drug addicts who just cause far too much trouble for the majority of people to feel sorry for them

I'd be far more worried about the scumbag that isn't a junkie. In most cases that's a real scumbag.

Greyfox wrote: »

I wouldn't, I see far too many junkies ruining Dublins city centre every day to agree with you, I've known too many people who have been robbed by junkies to feel compassion. Yes a small minority can genuinely use their circumstances as an excuse but the vast majority of people knew why drugs were illegal and made the choice to take drugs, these people have themselves to blame for their addiction. Drug addicts ruin too many peoples lives for me to care about them

And I also see their parents/grandparents/siblings, 'disadvantaged' or not, who are often genuinely decent people and who are also in despair at their predicament.
Drug abuse is a vicious cycle that is extremely difficult to get off. As you say, they made the decision to take drugs themselves in the first instance but ask any of them what their biggest regret in life is and 100% of them will tell you that taking those drugs in the first place was. They're all macho when they're with their peers in jail but catch them on their own and they're much more forthcoming and regretful.
So give them up I hear you say - that's easier said than done, especially when they're being released into the same set of circumstances that they came out of, in either the same or worse condition than when they went in. And don't forget - there's 9 detox beds in the entire prison system!! Rehabilitation my arse.

Dudess

Greyfox wrote: »

their will be some people who genuinely were unable to pay these fines due to the resession and it seems unfair to have them mixing with a drug addict who robbed and battered an old lady.

Oh absolutely. I'm only referring to people who dodge fines just because they don't want to pay them - if such people exist (I don't really mean fines as in the odd TV licence, but large debts owing). I certainly don't mean people who genuinely can't because of circumstances. If someone keeps evading payments they have to make though, well that's pretty scummy, and they don't have to be hard and "ghetto" for it to be so... e.g. certain corporate peeps coming to the fore right now.

It does go towards explaining it but the majority of people who come from a disadvantaged backround turn out ok which is why a big part of the blame lies with the criminal

I fully agree tough background won't automatically lead to crime, but there are people who come from really horrendous situations, who don't have a prayer. There's personal responsibility sure, but there's also putting oneself in the shoes of people whose lives are absolutely hopeless.

I wouldn't, I see far too many junkies ruining Dublins city centre every day to agree with you, I've known too many people who have been robbed by junkies to feel compassion. Yes a small minority can genuinely use their circumstances as an excuse but the vast majority of people knew why drugs were illegal and made the choice to take drugs, these people have themselves to blame for their addiction. Drug addicts ruin too many peoples lives for me to care about them

I really don't think it's as simple as "They made the choice" - if it were I and many others, there would be choice there, because I didn't come of age with it in my immediate social environment where it's almost like a rite of passage. I take your point that it is hard to feel sympathy for some junkies and I don't think their addiction excuses their behaviour, but I think an absolute disregard for them will only worsen the problem. Too many people who come from circumstances a million miles from those of these addicts make proclamations of "Well I just wouldn't do it" when they haven't a clue (I'm speaking in general here).

Denerick

There is nothing to be gained from treating criminals as confined cattle. The first priority of a corrective system should be rehabilitation. Failing that, it should at least attempt to uphold some form of moral highground against those it confines.

Bill2673

goose2005 wrote: »

I'd be more concerned about the conditions in mental hospitals - they have done no wrong and suffer far more, and are often even worse off than prisoners.

Thats fair enough.....but there's no connection between the two. Prisoners have no impact into the condition of psychiatric hospitals. It doesn't in anyway follow that more money for prisons means less money for psychiatric hospitals. The DoJ decides the former, the HSE decides the latter.

As a matter if interest, I've only been in two mental hospitals, one in Carlow and one in Dublin. I though conditions in both were ok, notwithstanding the fact that the building in Carlow is a grey old institutional building and not very appealing or modernised, in much the same way as a lot of christian brother secondary schools or monasteries would be.

Which mental hospitals do you feel are in worse condition than Mountjoy prison?

Rabble Rabble

Bill2673 wrote: »

And articles like this one get no comment whatsoever amongst the thousands of daily comments ..... I noticed a similar thing recently with the floods in Pakistan, a massive humaniarian disaster, didn't get hardly a single comment.

I dunno.....makes me wonder.

Actually it makes you feel smug and superior to ordinary folk. Probably from a Pad in Dalkey.

Bill2673

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Actually it makes you feel smug and superior to ordinary folk. Probably from a Pad in Dalkey.

It doesn't, and I don't live anywhere near Dalkey. But if it makes you feel better to think that then go ahead.

Bill2673

Greyfox wrote: »

Bill, that's what I really believe and I find it a bit insulting to be accused of trolling.

I'm glad and very relieved a lot of people feel indifferent to the report as theirs far more important things for our country to be concerned about. The reason I don't care about scumbags in prison is because our legal system is a joke, guarenteed to get off early for good behaviour instead of it been based on wheter or not you behave, people walking the streets with 70+ previous convictions and very lenient sentences for a lot of crimes including rape. Also concurrent sentences are a joke.

A MAJOR problem we have in this country is too many people care more about how "little Johny came from a bad backround and is actually a decent guy" then they do about the suffering of victims

Were pretty lenient when it comes to a criminals first offence so most scumbags are given a good chance of avoiding prison even though they have committed a crime which lends to the fact that the majority of people in prison deserve to be their and need to be punished. I feel sorry for prisoners who are their for not paying fines etc, they simply should not be in prison and are not scumbags.

Yes mount joy is a truely horrible place but some people deserve to be put in a truely horrible place, I don't see the point in spending more money on scumbags when Ireland is full of disadvantaged people that would be much more deserving of this money.

I think as a society we have a lot of compassion but their are some groups like drug addicts who just cause far too much trouble for the majority of people to feel sorry for them

Hi there Greyfox, apologies for the trolling comment, I shouldn't have said it, sorry for any offence....

Rabble Rabble

Bill2673 wrote: »

It doesn't, and I don't live anywhere near Dalkey. But if it makes you feel better to think that then go ahead.

Actually, clearly you do. The announcement to the world that you are concerned about the lack of concern the rest of us have towards prisoners, the marginalised, the name your group, is a form of moral superiority. You are better than the people you criticise, clearly. There is no way around that. It is implicit in criticising the masses for their lack of concern for something that concerns you.

The only point i would accept is that Mountjoy needs to be torn down. But thats it. Mountjoy, and it's conditions, are excuses for the soft on prisoners approach. I also agree that nobody should be in jail for minor white collar crimes - major ones maybe - even if they are scofflaws. Better to seize payments from wages or benefits.

On the larger issue of why the hoi-polli are hard on criminals - it is clear that this country is utterly soft on extreme criminality - a combination of liberal judges and an over-use of the concurrent sentencing laws.

4 years for the killing of a teacher who was walking down the street was the last atrocity in the system. The killers were out on bail, they had 60 plus convictions between them.

There is some atrocious judgement every week, some one fingered salute to the masses by the judges who probably do come from Dalkey. And added to this is the continual harrassment of the real marginalised, the old, single, or isolated on these estates. People have missles fired at their houses ( particularly at Halloween), an act that in many countries would get you imprisoned for attempted assault, or murder, or whatever could be booked against the perpetrator, but it is not policed here.

I am more concerned with victims than victimisers.

irishh_bob

Dudess wrote: »

What would men's rights groups do?

mens rights groups = oxymoron

Bill2673

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Actually, clearly you do. .

I've said, quite clearly in my two earlier posts, that I find the attitudes of people on Boards to groups like prisoners, drug addicts, social welfare recipients and so on to be quite depressing. Thats why I made the posts. And posting about on boards is also depressing, since I find myself articulating a negative change in my perception of Irish people, and the attitudes of Irish people, while following this website. If you think it makes me feel better just to say that, or that I get some sense of satisfaction, then I'm sorry you are wrong. I get absolutely no sense of satisfaction or feeling of moral superiority by anonymously posting this message to a bunch of anonymous contributors that I've never met, and never will meet.

So please don't say, actually clearly I do. Its quite the opposite.

As for your other points....

Why are you connecting the length of prison sentences to the poor quality of our prisons? I just don't get it......

That is the fault of judges, courts, the department of justice and the legal system. Prisoners are blameless for this, and have no contribution to it.

As for your sympathy for victimized over the victims....as clearly pointed out, they are often one and the same; such as hypothetically a child who grows up in a violent abusive family with alcoholic or drug using parents, and then is jailed at 18 for assault or for drug possession, as is very often the case......

irishh_bob

goose2005 wrote: »

I'd be more concerned about the conditions in mental hospitals - they have done no wrong and suffer far more, and are often even worse off than prisoners.

a broad brush comment if ever i heard one though not surprising considering the completley biased media reports with regards to the so called mentally ill

many of the people in mental hospitals have done wrong , some of them have killed people , seriously injured them and the majority of them have made life extremley difficult for those closest to them , the problem with mental institutions in this country right now is that its far too difficult to get someone into them , the mental health services are completley and utterly dominated by PC wooly liberal do gooders who believe every big house in the country should be emptied of its patients and replaced with the misguided and completley unworktable CARE IN THE COMMUNITY , those who call the shots in our mental health services are zealous liberal idealogues in the extreme , time was you were put in the big house for having a funny haircut , now you have to almost kill someone , all the emphasis and sympathy is focused on the unwell patient while the general public and immediete family of the unwell individual is completley ignored and left to suffer in silence

its a topic close to my heart and one that enrages me due to the complete misrepresentation of the actual reality by our liberal media

p.s , i believe mental patients deserve proper facilities and care once they are in an institution , no argument there , my problem is with those who run the system , they belive the mentally ills wellfare supercedes all other considerations , me , im more into protecting the majority normal

Nodin

irishh_bob wrote: »

a broad brush comment if ever i heard one though not surprising considering the completley biased media reports with regards to the so called mentally ill

............

So you're saying they aren't mentally ill and its all a big fib....?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Rabble Rabble

Bill2673 wrote: »

I've said, quite clearly in my two earlier posts, that I find the attitudes of people on Boards to groups like prisoners, drug addicts, social welfare recipients and so on to be quite depressing. Thats why I made the posts. And posting about on boards is also depressing, since I find myself articulating a negative change in my perception of Irish people, and the attitudes of Irish people, while following this website. If you think it makes me feel better just to say that, or that I get some sense of satisfaction, then I'm sorry you are wrong. I get absolutely no sense of satisfaction or feeling of moral superiority by anonymously posting this message to a bunch of anonymous contributors that I've never met, and never will meet.

So please don't say, actually clearly I do. Its quite the opposite.

Look apparently we are to avoid "personalising" the debate but that entire paragraph basically proves my point. If you are upset about the supposed demonisation of criminals then you imply that other people are not. This is a clear position of moral superiority, no different from Mary Whitehouse posting about the decline in morals in the fifties. Just a different morality. The plaintive cry about "why dont people care about it" is a cry from a superior moral position. They dont. You do.

Having thus poisoned the well in the first post ( the people opposed to your position are immoral) then no counter argument is going to work. But there is nothing immoral with the Irish criminal system ( the appalling situation of Mountjoy excepted) except that it convicts far too few violent criminals for far to short a time. It is fully understandable that the real powerless - the victims of criminality - are not in the least concerned about the prison system given that reality.

By the way if relative poverty caused criminality, then Ireland's beleaguered recently unemployed and once middle income groups should start stealing from the drug mafiosi. Thats not going to happen, people will emigrate to find work rather than assume the mantle of "poverty" and start criminal activities. On the flip side of that argument, there are plenty of rich criminals hiding their assets from the CAB. With assets greater than any normal person can hope to achieve.

What I am answering here is the main theme of this thread, not the state of the prison system, but the reasons why the victims of criminality are less than concerned with the system's flaws. Thats what you asked, thats what I am answering.

Dudess

irishh_bob wrote: »

a broad brush comment if ever i heard one though not surprising considering the completley biased media reports with regards to the so called mentally ill

"So called"?

many of the people in mental hospitals have done wrong , some of them have killed people , seriously injured them and the majority of them have made life extremley difficult for those closest to them

Ok, but that doesn't relegate their illnesses to "so called" - if anything it confirms they're real.

time was you were put in the big house for having a funny haircut

And thank Christ those days are gone.

p.s , i believe mental patients deserve proper facilities and care once they are in an institution , no argument there , my problem is with those who run the system , they belive the mentally ills wellfare supercedes all other considerations , me , im more into protecting the majority normal

Well stigmatisation of mental illness, like that by you, hardly helps. Plus, "liberal"... oh noez!

St Stephen's in Cork is supposed to be an horrendous sh1t-hole of a place btw. I understand what you're saying, that those who are very severely unstable are a danger to others, and there is not enough focus on those whose lives are ruined by them, so they get side-lined. But I don't understand how that lessens the need for decent facilities for the mentally ill - you even said yourself you believe they deserve proper facilities and care. Plus, the way you're writing, it's like you're tarring all mentally ill people with the crazed maniac brush, which only helps perpetuate stigmatisation and is wrong. I have a friend who is SEVERELY mentally ill - on cocktails of drugs just to make it through the day, in and out of St Pat's - often for several-month long stints, tells me about absolutely off-the-wall sh1t that goes on in her head... and she wouldn't harm a fly and seems like the most together person you could meet. People speaking the way you do absolutely breaks her heart.

irishh_bob

Nodin wrote: »

So you're saying they aren't mentally ill and its all a big fib....?

no where did i say such thing , what i meant was , the only kind of reports we get regarding mental hospitals are ones which revolve around a family desperetly trying to get thier son , brother , sister , mother out , thier are in fact families who are desperete to get a family member into an institution but cant yet ive never once seen this acknowledged on any report or documentary , without exception , they all focus in aims to have institutions closed down

irishh_bob

Dudess wrote: »

"So called"?

Ok, but that doesn't relegate their illnesses to "so called" - if anything it confirms they're real.

And thank Christ those days are gone.

Well stigmatisation of mental illness, like that by you, hardly helps. Plus, "liberal"... oh noez!

St Stephen's in Cork is supposed to be an horrendous sh1t-hole of a place btw. I understand what you're saying, that those who are very severely unstable are a danger to others, and there is not enough focus on those whose lives are ruined by them, so they get side-lined. But I don't understand how that lessens the need for decent facilities for the mentally ill - you even said yourself you believe they deserve proper facilities and care. Plus, the way you're writing, it's like you're tarring all mentally ill people with the crazed maniac brush, which only helps perpetuate stigmatisation and is wrong. I have a friend who is SEVERELY mentally ill - on cocktails of drugs just to make it through the day, in and out of St Pat's - often for several-month long stints, tells me about absolutely off-the-wall sh1t that goes on in her head... and she wouldn't harm a fly and seems like the most together person you could meet. People speaking the way you do absolutely breaks her heart.

the original poster stated that those who reside in mental institutions have done nothing wrong , i merley pointed out the inaccuracy in this statement , afterall those found guily but insane in murder cases usually end up in a psychiatric institution , i fully agree that patients in institutions should be well looked after , unlike those who dictate policy nowadays in mental health , i vehemently disagree with releasing mental patients on masse and enrolling them in the wooly liberal programme which is CARE IN THE COMMUNITY

as for your friend who is in and out of mental hospitals , i presume she enters them volluntarily , i was refering to people who are not willing to enter volluntarily , its nion impossible to have someone committed in this country against thier will unless they commit a crime and in this instance , they are send to the big house by a judge in a criminal arena

i have a cousin who suffered a brain injury as a child , he is a violent religous fanatic , his sisters havent been back home in three years for fear he would attack them ( again ) , he has verbally attacked his elderly neighbours , telling them they are litterally the devil , accused one old lady of breathing fire and will tell anyone who is willing to listen , that jesus is arriving in ireland on the third friday in january , his mother and brother have begged the local GP to section him but every time the doctor has tried to grant thier request, the ruling psychiatricst in the local hospital has vetoed any attempt , claiming that his problem is not psychiatric but one of aquired brain injury , engaging in semantics is a common theme among head doctors when dealing with those who are not the full schilling , i myself take a close intrerest in the wellfare of this family and have spoken to several doctors about the issue , each and everyone one of them has told me that the system is dominated by liberals who abhor the idea of taking away someone,s freedom regardless of how deranged the individual is

Nodin

irishh_bob wrote: »

no where did i say such thing ,

to the so called mentally ill

irishh_bob wrote: »

what i meant was , the only kind of reports we get regarding mental hospitals are ones which revolve around a family desperetly trying to get thier son , brother , sister , mother out , thier are in fact families who are desperete to get a family member into an institution but cant yet ive never once seen this acknowledged on any report or documentary , without exception , they all focus in aims to have institutions closed down

You'll find that generally that refers to people needlessly or unnessecarily hospitalised that can live in sheltered accomodation or on their own.

irishh_bob

Nodin wrote: »

You'll find that generally that refers to people needlessly or unnessecarily hospitalised that can live in sheltered accomodation or on their own.

what generally refers to people that can live on their own and such a judgement is highly subjective i think you might agree

Rodin

Denerick wrote: »

There is nothing to be gained from treating criminals as confined cattle. The first priority of a corrective system should be rehabilitation. Failing that, it should at least attempt to uphold some form of moral highground against those it confines.

The first priority of prison should be protecting those who would become victims, should the incarcerated be free to continue their criminal way

Don't tell me that rehabilitation of a paedo is more important than protecting other kids

Nodin

irishh_bob wrote: »

what generally refers to people that can live on their own and

Moving people out of institutions.

irishh_bob wrote: »

such a judgement is highly subjective i think you might agree

Such assesments are carried out by a panel of medical people, afaik.

Nodin

Rodin wrote: »

The first priority of prison should be protecting those who would become victims, should the incarcerated be free to continue their criminal way

....but when they're free, they won't be in prison, so the priority should surely bew to amend their behaviour while they have hold of them.

Dudess

irishh_bob wrote: »

the original poster stated that those who reside in mental institutions have done nothing wrong , i merley pointed out the inaccuracy in this statement , afterall those found guily but insane in murder cases usually end up in a psychiatric institution , i fully agree that patients in institutions should be well looked after , unlike those who dictate policy nowadays in mental health , i vehemently disagree with releasing mental patients on masse and enrolling them in the wooly liberal programme which is CARE IN THE COMMUNITY

as for your friend who is in and out of mental hospitals , i presume she enters them volluntarily , i was refering to people who are not willing to enter volluntarily , its nion impossible to have someone committed in this country against thier will unless they commit a crime and in this instance , they are send to the big house by a judge in a criminal arena

i have a cousin who suffered a brain injury as a child , he is a violent religous fanatic , his sisters havent been back home in three years for fear he would attack them ( again ) , he has verbally attacked his elderly neighbours , telling them they are litterally the devil , accused one old lady of breathing fire and will tell anyone who is willing to listen , that jesus is arriving in ireland on the third friday in january , his mother and brother have begged the local GP to section him but every time the doctor has tried to grant thier request, the ruling psychiatricst in the local hospital has vetoed any attempt , claiming that his problem is not psychiatric but one of aquired brain injury , engaging in semantics is a common theme among head doctors when dealing with those who are not the full schilling , i myself take a close intrerest in the wellfare of this family and have spoken to several doctors about the issue , each and everyone one of them has told me that the system is dominated by liberals who abhor the idea of taking away someone,s freedom regardless of how deranged the individual is

Well fair points. There was a time though when, as you said, anyone could wind up in a mental hospital - even those who weren't mentally ill but mentally handicapped, and efforts are being made to ensure there isn't a return to that (I interviewed people in relation to this issue also). Perhaps the brain injury differentiation stems from it.
On the one hand though, there are those who argue sectioning is a breach of a person's rights and takes away their dignity. One prominent campaigner aggressively hammered that home - in fairness, he had experience of actually being in a psychiatric hospital long-term and he said the patient has no dignity, to the point of barely any attention being given to their grooming and hygiene (he was referring to those who couldn't manage these things themselves) and he said they were forced into taking medication and undergoing ECT. On the other hand, as you say, there are those who clearly need help, need to be in a care environment so they don't harm themselves or others, yet obstacles are placed in the way of this being granted, and so, those around them have to suffer and even live in fear. And it looks like, from what you say, numbing medication and ECT would only be resorted to if they were deemed absolutely necessary.

irishh_bob

Nodin wrote: »

Moving people out of institutions.



Such assesments are carried out by a panel of medical people, afaik.

who nowadays are of a particular idealogical persuasion

btw , my local GP believes the top brass in mental health ( right now ) are idealogues aswell

irishh_bob

Dudess wrote: »

Well fair points. There was a time though when, as you said, anyone could wind up in a mental hospital - even those who weren't mentally ill but mentally handicapped, and efforts are being made to ensure there isn't a return to that (I interviewed people in relation to this issue also). Perhaps the brain injury differentiation stems from it.
On the one hand though, there are those who argue sectioning is a breach of a person's rights and takes away their dignity. One prominent campaigner aggressively hammered that home - in fairness, he had experience of actually being in a psychiatric hospital long-term and he said the patient has no dignity, to the point of barely any attention being given to their grooming and hygiene (he was referring to those who couldn't manage these things themselves) and he said they were forced into taking medication and undergoing ECT. On the other hand, as you say, there are those who clearly need help, need to be in a care environment so they don't harm themselves or others, yet obstacles are placed in the way of this being granted, and so, those around them have to suffer and even live in fear. And it looks like, from what you say, numbing medication and ECT would only be resorted to if they were deemed absolutely necessary.

what about the dignity of my aunt and cousins who have to listen to thier crazy brother and son berate them for not being as favourable to jesus as he is on an almost daily basis , who have to suffer terrible embarrasment in thier community due to thier brother - sons bizzare behaviour , my point is that all the emphasis nowadays is placed on the mental patient and the wellfare of those closest to them is entirely irrelevant , just once it would be nice to see some focus on the relatives of those who are not the full schilling

Nodin

irishh_bob wrote: »

who nowadays are of a particular idealogical persuasion

Allegedly.

irishh_bob wrote: »

btw , my local GP believes the top brass in mental health ( right now ) are idealogues aswell

He's entitled to his opinion. Anecdotes, however, don't really get us anywhere.

irishh_bob wrote: »

what about the dignity (.........)of those who are not the full schilling

You're arguing from the specific to the general.

irishh_bob

Nodin wrote: »

Allegedly.



He's entitled to his opinion. Anecdotes, however, don't really get us anywhere.



You're arguing from the specific to the general.

your obviosuly an expert on the subject as your dismissive answers demonstrate