Employer breaking the law?

Gaspode

My son recently had an offer of a chance to take up a job in Dublin. He was asked to meet the owner of said place of employment for an 'interview'.
When he got there he was not given an interview as such but brought to the factory floor, given some overalls, and set to work. He was given very rudimentary training (packing boxes) but no safety instructions (location of fire exits, assembly point, etc.) and just left to get on with it.
OK so at first he thought happy days, I've got the job but soon realised he was to work an 8 hour shift without any scheduled breaks. None of the other staff took any breaks other than the odd 2 minute smoke break during the shift.
The owner didnt take his address, ppsn, bank details or anything else.

Suffice to say he didnt go back. He wants work but doesnt want to be abused!

Is this employer breaking the law with regards to Health & safety?

xkariex

Gaspode wrote: »

My son recently had an offer of a chance to take up a job in Dublin. He was asked to meet the owner of said place of employment for an 'interview'.
When he got there he was not given an interview as such but brought to the factory floor, given some overalls, and set to work. He was given very rudimentary training (packing boxes) but no safety instructions (location of fire exits, assembly point, etc.) and just left to get on with it.
OK so at first he thought happy days, I've got the job but soon realised he was to work an 8 hour shift without any scheduled breaks. None of the other staff took any breaks other than the odd 2 minute smoke break during the shift.
The owner didnt take his address, ppsn, bank details or anything else.

Suffice to say he didnt go back. He wants work but doesnt want to be abused!

Is this employer breaking the law with regards to Health & safety?

yes in a big way. report him ...

Gaspode

Thinking seriously about doing that, presume it the HSA I'd talk to?
At the same time I'd hate to see people put out of work this side of Christmas if he did get done!

donkey balls

It is the employers responsibilty for all NEW employees to show them where the toilets/canteen is along with fire escapes also indunction training etc.
As for breaks employees are allowed a 15 min break after 4hrs work and a 30 min break after 6hrs work this is the nbr for the HSA 01-6147000 or lo call 1890289389.
Yoy say that other people working there just went along with the flow would it be that their from another country and dont know the rules here,As for reporting him they normally will give a warning before closing down an operation they also wont use your name or sons for that matter.

tenchi-fan

There are often charts on the wall with info on fire exits and assembly points. As for safety instructions, they're empty boxes.. the most he's at risk from is a papercut.

The employer will eventually have to request his PPSN and the accountant will organises wages and tax returns at the end of the month. Once again it's not hugely urgent on the first day. Casual workers often get paid by cash or cheque.

The "odd 2 minute smoking breaks" probably add up. Cigarette breaks aren't an entitlement! Seriously, if you go for a smoke (which is clearly in an area away from where he's working on boxes) and then go for a slash on the way back, you'll not find 10-15 minutes passing. Many office jobs I worked in, people just sat at their desk working through their break. Only one company I worked for (Dunnes Stores) ensured staff took their break and that's only because we had to clock in and clock out and internal audit/management would go nuts if they noticed staff didn't take their break.

The only worrying thing is the lack of a lunch hour. Not that it needs to be an hour as 30-45 mins is fine and as lunches are unpaid I can see the attraction of working through lunch.

Particularly if your son is young he should jump at the opportunity to gain work experience even if it is only folding boxes.

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill to be honest. I'm against employees being exploited but the only real issue you mentioned is the missing lunch break, and from the sounds of it your son didn't enquire about it

donkey balls

Tenchi-fan any job I ever started even as a manager I was shown the fire escapes canteen toilets etc as it is a legal requirement on behalf of the employer.
Also if there was any sort of manual handling involved the lad should have done a basic manual handling course,H&S in the work place is big these days and an employer/employee could find them selves in a spot of bother if an accident/inncident occured and they did not follow procedure.

tenchi-fan

donkey balls wrote: »

Tenchi-fan any job I ever started even as a manager I was shown the fire escapes canteen toilets etc as it is a legal requirement on behalf of the employer.
Also if there was any sort of manual handling involved the lad should have done a basic manual handling course,H&S in the work place is big these days and an employer/employee could find them selves in a spot of bother if an accident/inncident occured and they did not follow procedure.

Yes, large companies have HR departments who make sure to follow these regulations by the letter. Many owner-managers aren't even aware they need to. Yes, it's in their interest to but it's a cross between ignorance and just not bothering. From what the op describes I really wouldn't take issue with most of the oversights.

Gaspode

Techni-fan, I take your points on that's why I've been thinking about whether to report this or not.
On a minor point, they were not empty boxes, they were filled and being packed onto pallets or into trucks.
He took 2 cigarette breaks in the time, that's approx 5 mins over the course of the shift. The non-smokers there took no breaks at all! They other staff were all eastern European, he reckoned Latvian or Lithuanian from their accent & some words he recognized and they had very little English.

racso1975

Does your son's name sound like it might be foreign? Very unusual that if all other staff are non irish and he can get them to work those conditions that he'd risk taking on somebody who is more likely to shout about their rights

xkariex

tenchi-fan wrote: »

Yes, large companies have HR departments who make sure to follow these regulations by the letter. Many owner-managers aren't even aware they need to. Yes, it's in their interest to but it's a cross between ignorance and just not bothering. From what the op describes I really wouldn't take issue with most of the oversights.

Every company has to ensure employees know safety exits, health and safety etc. And breaks are an entitlement.

You are very wrong !!!

Bucklesman

racso1975 wrote: »

Does your son's name sound like it might be foreign? Very unusual that if all other staff are non irish and he can get them to work those conditions that he'd risk taking on somebody who is more likely to shout about their rights

This cowboy has realised that with the shortage of job opportunities he can start exploiting Irish people too.

Report him.

tenchi-fan

xkariex wrote: »

Every company has to ensure employees know safety exits, health and safety etc. And breaks are an entitlement.

You are very wrong !!!

"you are very wrong"... Have you actually read the part of the post you're replying to where I said "Many owner-managers aren't even aware they need to. Yes, it's in their interest to but it's a cross between ignorance and just not bothering"?

eurokev

really dont see an issue. Your son now doesnt have a job. Its obviously busy, he liked the look of your son and offered him a job. He would have sorted out how to pay him some other time during the course of the week I imagine.

Toilets- ask someone where they are.
Fire escape- Out any of the doors clearly visible on all factory floors.
Take a break. Ask whos in charge.

Give the employer a break, he gave your son the opportunity of one

Sounds like us Irish thinking we are too good for these jobs imo

tenchi-fan

eurokev wrote: »

really dont see an issue. Your son now doesnt have a job. Its obviously busy, he liked the look of your son and offered him a job. He would have sorted out how to pay him some other time during the course of the week I imagine.

Toilets- ask someone where they are.
Fire escape- Out any of the doors clearly visible on all factory floors.
Take a break. Ask whos in charge.

Give the employer a break, he gave your son the opportunity of one

Sounds like us Irish thinking we are too good for these jobs imo

Thank you! Someone showing some common sense.

I started a similar job myself in a cinema once. I turned up and was told "look, this isn't an interview, you can start tomorrow". No instruction video on working with the popcorn machine or lifting boxes. I followed another staff member on their break and amazingly found the toilet behind a door marked "Toilet"!!

There was a time when common sense and initiative were expected of employees. Ireland is full of people who know so much about their rights and entitlements yet seem to be incapable of working.

I met an Irish guy in Canada who got a well-paid temp job with the government doing work at exhibitions. His co-worker was an Irish girl in her early 20s who had been able to find a job after leaving college in Ireland. After a few weeks they were asked to do something which the Irish guy described as "reasonable" and the girl started a huge row with her manager over it. As a result, the two of them were let go (not fired, their assignment came to an end), with the department telling them that they will source staff for each venue individually in future. A nice way of saying "you're a trouble maker and we don't want to work with people like you"

Then you wonder why so many Eastern Europeans are happily working in jobs in Ireland. They're not all being exploited, some of them are just happy to have a job.

donkey balls

tenchi-fan wrote: »

Thank you! Someone showing some common sense.

I started a similar job myself in a cinema once. I turned up and was told "look, this isn't an interview, you can start tomorrow". No instruction video on working with the popcorn machine or lifting boxes. I followed another staff member on their break and amazingly found the toilet behind a door marked "Toilet"!!

There was a time when common sense and initiative were expected of employees. Ireland is full of people who know so much about their rights and entitlements yet seem to be incapable of working.

I met an Irish guy in Canada who got a well-paid temp job with the government doing work at exhibitions. His co-worker was an Irish girl in her early 20s who had been able to find a job after leaving college in Ireland. After a few weeks they were asked to do something which the Irish guy described as "reasonable" and the girl started a huge row with her manager over it. As a result, the two of them were let go (not fired, their assignment came to an end), with the department telling them that they will source staff for each venue individually in future. A nice way of saying "you're a trouble maker and we don't want to work with people like you"

Then you wonder why so many Eastern Europeans are happily working in jobs in Ireland. They're not all being exploited, some of them are just happy to have a job.

Right first off all lets get a few things correct im not one of these morans that quotes H&S legislation in order to avoid work,(which I have seen people do)I worked as a ops manager so I would know quiet a lot about H&S and what is a reasonable request.
I have also seen eastern europeans not give a flying f**k about our H&S laws and other rules which could lead to the deaths of joe public,Irish Companies have exploited these workers who cause an accident then skip the country.
For those not in the know most companies carry out risk assesments in order to prevent accidents and most companies take sensible approach to them.

tenchi-fan

donkey balls wrote: »

Right first off all lets get a few things correct im not one of these morans that quotes H&S legislation in order to avoid work,(which I have seen people do)I worked as a ops manager so I would know quiet a lot about H&S and what is a reasonable request.
I have also seen eastern europeans not give a flying f**k about our H&S laws and other rules which could lead to the deaths of joe public,Irish Companies have exploited these workers who cause an accident then skip the country.
For those not in the know most companies carry out risk assesments in order to prevent accidents and most companies take sensible approach to them.

Yep, a lot of eastern europeans who came over here and started working with powertools only worked with hand tools back home, resulting in plenty of visits to the A&E.

But the key is a "sensible approach"

Filling boxes and some light lifting is in a different category than working with chemicals, heavy lifting, working with power tools and working at heights.

The op said his son got "rudimentary training (packing boxes)". His job involves packing boxes. I think a sensible approach is to pack said boxes and get on with it.

Management are usually on the lookout for idiocy at work. I worked in Dunnes once, it took so long to climb the ladder, get a box, climb down, push the ladder, and repeat .... we used to just push it along with one person on top who would throw the boxes down to be caught by the person at the bottom. sure it was a bit of craic.

RATM

I've often worked in places for eight hours, taken 3 x 5 minute smoke breaks all shift. I'm happy with that although I realise it is below the legal minimum. But when if I'm in a flow of work I like to keep working. As long as the boss lets me have a smoke when I want to then I'd be happy but its not the same for everyone.

OP did your son ask for a break? It might have been the case that there is no real manager there, just the owner who comes and goes and his break got overlooked?

thebullkf

donkey balls wrote: »

Right first off all lets get a few things correct im not one of these morans that quotes H&S legislation in order to avoid work,(which I have seen people do)I worked as a ops manager so I would know quiet a lot about H&S and what is a reasonable request.
I have also seen eastern europeans not give a flying f**k about our H&S laws and other rules which could lead to the deaths of joe public,Irish Companies have exploited these workers who cause an accident then skip the country.
For those not in the know most companies carry out risk assesments in order to prevent accidents and most companies take sensible approach to them.

OP's manager with basic spelling difficulty...:eek:;)

donkey balls

thebullkf wrote: »

OP's manager with basic spelling difficulty...:eek:;)

EH what?:rolleyes:a few spelling mistakes who said I was perfect no one ever hear of a typo, Anyway this is a message board not as if I have to report an accident on official company ppwk etc.

Gaspode

This is drifting OT a little, so I'll just bring it back a little. My question was whether the law was being broken. Having done some research, the answer is yes it was as all employees are entitled to take breaks for H&S reasons, and it's the employer's duty to see that they take them (though the employees also have a duty to take care of themselves).
However, since there is no proof that the employees worked their shifts without breaks every day, it may not be worth chasing down.

On an aside, no my son does not have a foreign name (nor a foreign father afaik!), yes there are Irish staff in that company, just not on that shift on the evening in question.

Denerick

I can't believe your son quit this job. True, he is entitled to a break during an 8 hour shift, and his employer was acting badly, but the fact that he would prefer to be on the dole to working 40 hours a week, despite poor conditions, is a pretty bad reflection on him. I've worked worse conditions in the past, call it a character building exercise.

tenchi-fan

Gaspode wrote: »

This is drifting OT a little, so I'll just bring it back a little. My question was whether the law was being broken. Having done some research, the answer is yes it was as all employees are entitled to take breaks for H&S reasons, and it's the employer's duty to see that they take them (though the employees also have a duty to take care of themselves).
However, since there is no proof that the employees worked their shifts without breaks every day, it may not be worth chasing down.

On an aside, no my son does not have a foreign name (nor a foreign father afaik!), yes there are Irish staff in that company, just not on that shift on the evening in question.

Hi Gaspode,

Yea it's clear the employer was breaking the law or to use a euphemism "not following the law to the letter"
If it was his first job or if he was out of work for a while there's no way I'd leave it! A reference is a reference and a euro is a euro regardless of how crappy the job is. People in work tend to find work a lot quicker than people out of work.