EPG and MHEG5

watty

It's evident that the look, feel and user interface to EPG (electronic Program guide) varies dramatically between Windows 7 Media Center, 3rd party PC programs, Digital TVs and Set-box that can all receive Saorview.

This is not a good thing, and confusing to ordinary consumer.

There is a solution

Freeview Australia has launched its long-awaited electronic programme guide using MHEG technology provided by the UK’s Strategy & Technology (S&T).

The Freeview EPG will, for the first time, provide a consolidated platform for the consumer when navigating Freeview channels, and will also provide consistency of experience across multiple digital TVs in the home, so that the consumer only has to learn the navigation once,” said Robin Parkes, CEO of Freeview Australia.

The MHEG5 based EPG includes the management of schedule data presentation as well as integrated PVR booking, series links and accurate recording, for multiple broadcasters across multiple states and time-zones. The underlying MHEG platform enables other applications to be delivered to receivers in the future while the new technology also means that the Freeview EPG will have video streaming and text capability, including a live “boxed” TV display.

http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2010/07/07/freeview-australia-powered-by-st-mheg-engine/
And http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/why-mheg5-epg

STB

Thats the whole idea of RTE Nls use of MHEG5 for EPG and Text.

The EPG is gathered from EIT is in parallel to MHEG5 at the moment so that non MHEG5 gear has basic EPG info. At the moment its 7 days EIT. That may change to now next in the future as usage, legacy TV's wit the basics die and compliance kicks in.

fat-tony

Is that speculation on your part or is it planned by RTENL to drop the 7 day EPG as part of the EIT data?
The EIT is handled by most STBs and PC apps, albeit with presentation differences (as highlighted by watty). I find that the presentation of EIT EPG data is fine on my Sony TV, but distinctly cheap and cheerful on the Mvision 200 combo. The quality of the in-built EPG is usually a measure of the overall design quality of the TV or STB in general.
When the design of the EPG presentation is left to the broadcaster in the case of MHEG you are stuck with a particular layout. I found the MHEG-5 EPG from Saorview very basic in comparison with the Freesat EPG for example.

The Cush

fat-tony wrote: »

Is that speculation on your part or is it planned by RTENL to drop the 7 day EPG as part of the EIT data?
The EIT is handled by most STBs and PC apps, albeit with presentation differences (as highlighted by watty). I find that the presentation of EIT EPG data is fine on my Sony TV, but distinctly cheap and cheerful on the Mvision 200 combo. The quality of the in-built EPG is usually a measure of the overall design quality of the TV or STB in general.
When the design of the EPG presentation is left to the broadcaster in the case of MHEG you are stuck with a particular layout. I found the MHEG-5 EPG from Saorview very basic in comparison with the Freesat EPG for example.

RTÉNL have never indicated that the DVB epg would be dropped, it's only speculation here on the boards by some who see it as a legacy issue. The DVB 7-day epg is part of the spec and can be received by most if not all DTT receivers unlike any future MHEG-5 epg. The dvb epg is big leap from what we had on analogue terrestrial.

RTÉNL has only carried out a few basic MHEG-5 epg (green button) tests in recent times and it doesn't seem to be a prioity for them unlike digital Aertel.

UK DTT has managed without an MHEG-5 epg for the last 12 years, the few commercial ones failed.

I much prefer the DVB epg on my 2 Sony TVs in comparison to the MHEG-5 epg tests earlier this year although the one on my brother Philips TV is dire. Accessing the epg is another issue, the Sony DVB guide appears almost instantaneously unlike an MHEG-5 application such as Aertel or the green button epg which takes time to load.

watty

Not everyone has a Sony TV.

I suspect also how fast the MHEG EPG depends on what caching is used, bandwidth allocated and how well it's written. It could even perhaps use the DVB-EIT, I'd have to look at what stream info the MHEG language can access.

It's interesting that it's a UK company that has provided the Australian MHEG4 EPG.

mossym

EIT EPG is fine on samsungs as well, which with sony means big part of the tv market is covered.

agree with the earlier statement about the quality of the saorview MHEG5 epg, it looks woeful, it may beat cheap low end receiver boxes, but the EIT EPG on any tv i have seen, plus mediacenter as it was brought up, is far far superior.

let them both exist and let the customer choose, no need for us all to be shoehorned into having to use the same just to serve the lowest common denominator

Sponge Bob

If I were RTE I would continue to supply the DVB-SI data including the EIT substream and the 'texty' looking text given the amount of gear out there that will decode MPEG4 picture/audio but does not support MHEG5 , they can revisit that in 2015 maybe.

My problem with the EPG is that it is wrong nearly every evening after 9PM and even wronger on TV3 Expend some effort there instead pls.

STB

@fat tony: Speculation and and logical thinking. There have been posts in the past on this topic. Some of the replies where from people that are in RTE. And the speculation at that time was certainly towards extended EIT data and VBI not lasting much longer than 2012.

I am of the same opinion as you about the continued use (in parallel to MHEG5) of extended EIT for IDTVs, Combo boxes and TNT HD boxes etc.

But remember one thing. RTE NL do not support grey boxes or IDTVs. Thats why there is a Saorview certification process. MHEG5 is a minimum requirement and has been since the spec was first published in February 2008.

We know they have been designing their own EPG. We know they will be using it for Teletext.

Their recommitment was published earlier this year with S&T coming in with welcoming comments etc. So that is an indicator of moving on. Also as Watty points out, using dependent software that varies considerably by STB manfacturer may be confusing to the end user. Hence the use of MHEG5 to homogenise and give a universal look and feel.

By the way Watty - S&T are MHEG5! Guy who runs it is a founding member of Impala.

watty

OK so I imagine RTE are talking to them.

IF an MHEG5 EPG could use EIT data rather than needing separate data, that would be a win-win.

Magilla Gorilla

If I tune my Samsung using UK setting, the MHEG-5 epg works. If I tune it to Ireland, it doesn't. UK setting scrambles the channel nos, so Irish setting is preferable. Any ideas as to why epg won't wotk?

watty

Because they think Ireland has no MHEG5

is there no option to edit the channel numbers? There usually is. In a different menu.

Sponge Bob

Magilla Gorilla wrote: »

If I tune my Samsung using UK setting, the MHEG-5 epg works. If I tune it to Ireland, it doesn't. UK setting scrambles the channel nos, so Irish setting is preferable. Any ideas as to why epg won't wotk?

Have you complained to Samsung ?? That could easily be fixed with a firmware update ...especially if it has an SD Card slot. The firmware may have been released already.

Tell us what they say when you complain ( and the model number and YEAR it was issued) but most Samsungs (nowadays) happily find MHEG5 on Irish profiles and display the features.

Magilla Gorilla

Cannot edit digital channel nos. It is possible to edit analogue nos. TV was bought from UK, so maybe that's the cause.

I haven't complained to Samsung yet- I'm awaiting a response on a blown speaker issue I sent them on Sunday. :mad:

TV was purchased at end 2009.

STB

If you change the country to Ireland it should number them correctly (if you have that option in the start up menu). You might lose MHEG5 doing that.

Otherwise you could just add them to a favourites list.

It should definitely allow you rename the channel number though.

Magilla Gorilla

Yes STB, choosing "Ireland" numbers them correctly, but loses MHEG-5. There is no option to rename or renumber digital channels. Analogue can do both.

For reference, it's a Samsung LE 26 B450 tv.

STB

Magilla Gorilla wrote: »

Yes STB, choosing "Ireland" numbers them correctly, but loses MHEG-5. There is no option to rename or renumber digital channels. Analogue can do both.

For reference, it's a Samsung LE 26 B450 tv.

Okay go back to UK (so that you will have MHEG5).

From the manual

If you want to stop Auto Store, press the ENTERE button. The Stop Auto Store? message will be displayed.

Select Yes by pressing the or button, then press the ENTERE button. English - 8 Manual Store N Scans for a channel manually and stores it in the TV's memory. N If a channel is locked using the Child Lock function, the PIN input window appears.

Digital Channel Manual store for digital channels. N Digital Channel is only available in DTV mode. Channel: Set the Channel number using the , or number (0~9) buttons

slegs

They should just drop the notion of an MHEG5 EPG. Its confusing for consumers and not necessary (especially when as likely the DVB-EIT EPG will coexist).

Every single DVB-T box and tuner I have seen has a DVB-EIT compatible EPG and most look much better than the MHEG5 versions I have seen in other countries. Functions like series link can be managed through MHEG5 additions if necessary but making the EPG standard is just stupid. Its playing to the lowest common denominator instead of providing a flexible open implementation.

Any chance of merging EPGS with UK will go out the window if they go this route as even though Freeview HD is MHEG5 compatible it would be very unlikely RTE will pull in the UK channels in the MHEG5 EPG application they write.

Stupid idea that should be dumped now.

watty

Which MHEG5 EPGs have you seen?

I didn't know any were running yet other than tests?

slegs

watty wrote: »

Which MHEG5 EPGs have you seen?

I didn't know any were running yet other than tests?

I have seen screenshots of the New Zealand MHEG5 EPG over 18 monhts ago and of course the Saorview one that looks like cr@p

Mayo Exile

Magilla Gorilla wrote: »

Yes STB, choosing "Ireland" numbers them correctly, but loses MHEG-5. There is no option to rename or renumber digital channels. Analogue can do both.

For reference, it's a Samsung LE 26 B450 tv.

Similar for a Sony W4000 and a V4500 series TV. Ireland setting disables MHEG5 functions. Must be on UK. You can store channels in any position you want though.

watty

Slegs

Is the NZ one same or different to the one just sourced by Australia?

obviously NO MHEG5 EPG is better than a rubbish one!

Magilla Gorilla

Got it sorted. Retuned as UK and it allows me to renumber channels. The Ireland tuning does not allow this, which had me confused. Thanks to all.

In the old days

Magilla Gorilla wrote: »

Yes STB, choosing "Ireland" numbers them correctly, but loses MHEG-5. There is no option to rename or renumber digital channels. Analogue can do both.

For reference, it's a Samsung LE 26 B450 tv.

Have the same set bought in State. I think from memory the Ireland setting puts up teletext on RTE1, 2, TV3, TG4 but MHEG 5 teletext on news now. On UK setting you can't get anything on TV3, TG4. I prefer the Ireland setting and arrange channels by favorites.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

Is the NZ one same or different to the one just sourced by Australia?

obviously NO MHEG5 EPG is better than a rubbish one!

Freeview NZ

MHEG-5

MHEG-5 is an interactive digital television open standard. It has been developed by the Multimedia and Hypermedia Experts Group (MHEG). The raw MHEG-5 specification is called ISO/IEC 13522-5. The raw specification has to be accompanied by a “Profile” specification in order to be of any use for interactive TV. A few profiles have been defined and the most popular of them this the UK Profile. New Zealand has adopted this profile with a few extensions and this is now referred to as the NZ profile. Hong Kong have also adopted MHEG-5 as their interactive television middleware standard with a number of other countries trialling MHEG services.

How are the programme listings broadcast on Freeview|HD® service?

The Freeview Guide (EPG) is populated by a MHEG-5 data stream for both Freeview satellite® and Freeview|HD® . The Freeview satellite service had an existing base of free-to-air digital satellite receivers and PVRs which work off an EIT schedule so we will continue to broadcast this data format for the Freeview satellite® service.

For Freeview|HD®, there was no existing base of digital receivers so Freeview has chosen to broadcast the schedule using MHEG-5 only, as it is a more bandwidth efficient and presentation friendly method.

Freeview Australia

The Freeview MHEG-5 requirements stipulate compliance to the UK MHEG-5 1.06 standards with the HD (High Definition) and IC (return path) extensions (DTG D-Book 6.0). In addition some Australian specific requirements such as support for Maori character set and the use of the Electronic Programme Guide (EPG) remote control key are also required.

Sneakee

Installed all the channels and teletext service via the UK location setting.
Just wondering is the Saorview EPG located within the Teletext service?
I have a teletext button with teletext written on it and MHEG written above it. I can't figure out how to access the EPG.
http://www.philips.co.uk/c/televisions/8000-series-philips-32-inch-full-hd-1080p-digital-tv-32pfl8404h_12/prd/
I heard about this 7 day EPG service, just wondering is it contained within the teletext service?

fat-tony

The standard EPG is completely separate to the one contained in the digital Aertel service. You should have an EPG button on the remote control. This should display the 7 day EPG.

just had a look at the manual you linkied to - press the Guide button;)


There is a limited TV guide being broadcast on the Aertel (digital text) service. If you scroll down past the News, Sport, Weather links you will find the TV guide. There was an MHEG EPG being broadcast which you accessed from the green button on the remote, but it's not working on my Sony. Can anyone confirm that the MHEG EPG is being broadcast?

cjt156

Not getting the MHEG EPG on my Samsung. I did get it under green button when testing earlier this year. Samsung's own guide looks better.
I am getting Digital Text when set to UK, though.

watty

There is no MHEG5 EPG right now. When or if it comes back, it's likely a completely different EPG.
Only the Fancy MHEG5 text.

Leave it on UK and manually edit channel numbers. Now that DTT is running with 6 TV & 10 Radio, RTE2 HD (ish) you don't need Ireland setting to make VHF work.

Sneakee

fat-tony wrote: »

The standard EPG is completely separate to the one contained in the digital Aertel service. You should have an EPG button on the remote control. This should display the 7 day EPG.

just had a look at the manual you linkied to - press the Guide button;)


There is a limited TV guide being broadcast on the Aertel (digital text) service. If you scroll down past the News, Sport, Weather links you will find the TV guide. There was an MHEG EPG being broadcast which you accessed from the green button on the remote, but it's not working on my Sony. Can anyone confirm that the MHEG EPG is being broadcast?

I was aware of that button, it was only working when I had the tv hooked via ethernet and would download a guide like EPG when I had the analogue TV service active. I no longer have the TV hooked to the net now and goes into a setup mode.
I'll mess with it tonight, maybe there is more options when I go into that button setup when I press it. Silly of me not to mess with it. Was of the impression the EPG was within the Teletext system.
Thanks

fat-tony

Have you had the actual digital TV service active? RTENL testcard, 3E channel etc? The EPG is only present on the DTT service.