Questions for those who have come out the other side.

LegacyUser

Hi.I have to post this because I really, really need some outside help.

Okay, I'm in a very long term relationship with a man I love dearly and want to marry. We've discussed it a lot. I know he loves me.Without a doubt, I have never ever thought otherwise and still don't.

A month ago, I found out that he was online chatting with other girls. I won't go into details, but you understand what I mean.I should add there was no physical contact, no suggestions of meetings with them, nothing like that. Anyway, I confronted him. Cried my eyes out, into hysterics.That, to me is cheating, with no shades of grey about it.He cried too. A lot. He didn't realise it would hurt me like that. Has never seen me like that. I told him if it ever happened again (bearing in mind we've discussed having kids together...) I was gone and that was it. I couldn't stay.I told him it would take me a long,long time to ever trust him again. I told him a lot of things...most of which apparently never occurred to him.

He said he doesn't know why he did it - initially it was because he was scared that he wouldn't be good enough for me and to try and find out what kind of things girls like.I am his first, and honestly, he's mine.And then...he just kept doing it. He said he never felt anything for any of them, they're not me. And then he said that he feels I'm better than him, that he's not good enough for me. I've never intentionally done anything to make him feel this way. We talked about it a lot, and we're still talking and in a way, we're in a better place.

Please don't tell me that he's talking rubbish or I should instantly dump him. I know this man. I see the love in his eyes all the time. He tells me endlessly (for 8 years now) how much he loves me, how much I mean to him. And he shows me that, every day.I love him more than anything, I do not work without him. And vice versa.

I just want some advice on how I can work on trusting him again. I want some advice on whether or not the sick feeling in the pit of my stomach every time I think about it will go away. He knows - without question - that I will leave if it ever happens again. I don't say things lightly, especially not things like this.I understand that there are things out there on the internet that turn people on....I kind of understand why he kept doing it...but I'm not making excuses. I view it as a form of cheating, and I'm not debating that. I just want to know how to start letting go of it...has anyone any advice.Every relationship has it's ups and downs and nobody is perfect, so there must be some people out there who have been through something like this and come out the other side.....

Miss Fluff

trust again??? wrote: »

He said he doesn't know why he did it - initially it was because he was scared that he wouldn't be good enough for me and to try and find out what kind of things girls like.

:eek:

Are you honestly accepting that as a reasonable excuse? Really?

He got caught. Regardless of what his excuses are, online dating sites are a breeding ground for extra-marital affairs. I'd love for someone to come up with a bona fide statistic on the amount of married and engaged people are on them because I know there are a hell of a lot.

While the protestations may be that it started off "innocently", I would refuse to buy that. These sites are DATING sites for SINGLE people. No different really than going to a singles night and putting yourself out there.

On these PI pages, the same threads come up again and again about an OH caught flirting online, with the common defence being they were "only" flirting. I'd be curious as to how these online relationships would develop if they hadn't been caught you know?

In my opinion OP, if you really and truly want to get past this and rebuild trust in your relationship then you need to go for couples counselling to REALLY get to the bottom of why he did it. Because the reasons he is spouting thusfar have, in my humble opinion, been total and utter horse-sh1t.

Wagon

First off, by the sounds of things, it's a very good relationship that has just hit a rocky patch. These things happen and unfortunately, it's part of life.

My guess as to why he did it is down to feeling like maybe he was missing out. Staying with someone for 8 years and not having anyone else in a world where people ride each other left right and centre can make someone feel this way. It can come down to a lack of confidence and maybe he wanted to see if he could manage it. He also did it online because he didn't want to go out and cheat properly and in his eyes, he wasn't hurting anyone. Although im more inclined to agree with you here, it's still a form of cheating no matter what way you look at it.

It doesn't make him a bad person though and you say he isn't and you know him a lot better than some randomers on the internet do so I'll take your word on that. Men and women, regardless how comfortable they are in a relationship, can get struck with lack of confidence. It's very human and from what you've said, it defiantly seems to be the case with him.

So keep that in mind and it'll help you get past it. Yeah he made a cock up, but if he loves you (and it sounds like he does) he won't do it again. Give it time and the more you see it, the more the trust will come back. If you want to, both of you should attend couples counselling and maybe have a good chat about it.

LegacyUser

Op here.

Miss Fluff, I understand what you're saying, and I said that to him...first step this, next step full blown affair.I too have seen all those threads.

I won't go into why I believe him - other than I know him, and that's enough. However it really hurts that he kept doing it. When I say kept, I don't mean on a weekly or daily basis - I mean, every few months. Again, I'm not making excuses for him, I'm just giving the background.

It is an extremely strong relationship. We are both quite old-fashioned and nothing has ever come between us before. He would not have much confidence with that kind of thing, and he had/has nobody to ask/confide in about it (I won't go into family details, but he doesn't). We talk about everything....it's a partnership, aswell as a relationship. I don't want to break up with him, and he definitely doesn't want me to leave, if his reaction was anything to go by. I think you may be right about the counselling - it might be an idea, just to try and get some perspective. Thanks for your advice Wagon. I know every couple out there hits odd rocky patches, and both of us are willing to make this work. Whatever it takes. I know he loves me more than anything, to be honest., and he is not a bad person....nowhere near it.

As I said, I'm not making excuses for him. But don't tell me straight off to just break up with him, because that's not happening. It's not delusion speaking, it's someone who is in a relationship, and knows the person she is talking about better than anyone else in the world.I just want a few opinions from those who have been here, and learned how to forgive and have their relationship continue as strongly as before.

(although now that I think of it, those kind of people probably don't post on internet forums......)

Thanks again.

Zen65

trust again??? wrote: »

Please don't tell me that he's talking rubbish or I should instantly dump him. I know this man. I see the love in his eyes all the time. He tells me endlessly (for 8 years now) how much he loves me, how much I mean to him. And he shows me that, every day.I love him more than anything, I do not work without him. And vice versa.

I just want some advice on how I can work on trusting him again.

OP, I agree that you do not need to hear advice from judgemental people who don't know the guy and will glibly say "leave him" without understanding what that would entail for you.

My advice is limited in the sense that apart from what I've read here on Boards & seen on Graham Norton's chat show; I don't claim to fully understand the mechanics of online sex chat thing (I think they invented it 20 years too late for me) - but here's what I believe happens:

Guy logs onto an online portal where he sees video of a "live" model who performs sex acts for the amusement / gratification of the viewer. There may be an audio connection between model & viewer, so that instructions can be given. Otherwise, words are exchanged by text/type chat. The viewer uses the session to masturbate.

For you, "getting over it" might be easier if you could see this act in context. I think right now you see this as cheating, as an act of infidelity?

Most people do not consider masturbation by their partners itself to be an act of infidelity, but that's a personal view. If you do, then that's an issue to resolve between you and your partner. What troubles people (and I've discussed/read this with a variety of posters here in other threads) is the perceived role of the model at the other end of the internet.

If you consider that it's ok for your partner to masturbate by himself, then consider this: Men usually do need "help" to do this, and most often this is simply by imagining a scenario which appeals to some aspect of their sexual psyche. The scenario is often one which might be abhorrent to them in real life (such as bondage, torture, or other fetish scenarios) or would simply be laughable in real life (I would challenge anyone not to laugh at the sight of a grown adult dressed as a furry koala bear looking to mate!). These scenarios are typically conducted in the head without any guest appearances by their partners, and involve fictitious people, simply because bringing "real life" into these scenarios just causes a "conflict" in the brain, and the moment is lost.

Some men lack that imagination, or cannot sustain the scenario in their heads long enough to make it work for them. In that case, they may look for the help of pornography videos or books. You may regard such things as distasteful or wrong, and yet if you visit the Donor Room in a fertility clinic you can find porn tapes being used for this purpose, because it is potentially not possible for their partners to join them (said partners being in another room being prepared to receive the semen donation as part of the fertility treatment.)

So porn, whatever you may think about it, is primarily used as a sex toy for men the way a woman might use a vibrator. Men do not think about it nor form relationships with it, any more than women form relationships with their "rampant rabbits".

Similarly, the internet sex chat room is just an advanced form of pornography. The very same thing could be achieved by using modern computer games, but for business transaction purposes, a live model is used. The model is in another country (east Europe, Russia, Philippines?) and does not disclose any personal details about herself. Her real name is almost certainly not "Sasha" as advertised. She may be married, or have children. This is a form of income for her (I'm guessing that a credit card was needed for your partner to use these rooms?)

There is no chance that he will ever meet the model in real life. He would not want to. There is no compatibility between him & her, she simply fulfils the role of "actress" for the purpose of allowing him to pleasure himself while not having the imagination to conduct the entire scene for free in his own head.

You ask how do you trust this man again? Well, start by understanding that from his perspective the event was simply a piece of theatre, a performance given by an unknown actress for whom he has no feelings, and with whom he will never meet in real life. You have nothing to be jealous about, no more than you could be jealous of a character in a movie.

From his perspective, he did not consider the act as being unfaithful, though he probably knew you would not approve of it. He was not seeking the affections of another person, nor was he offering that of himself. If he wanted the company of another woman, he could have looked for it, but he did not. He was in his own company, but was watching a performance on screen by an actress. Yes, it was a personalised performance to the extent that he could request whatever act he wanted ("now turn left", "now use the other hand", etc) but that's about the extent of it. It was a very different event to (say) using the services of a prostitute, as there was no physical connection between himself and this model. They did not even share countries!

Don't get me wrong. I am not condoning the act. For me, it is a wasted opportunity for a couple and a drain on the internet (I often wonder how much faster my PC could surf if people would stop accessing those over-sized porn files). Using our vast technological resources for such an act seems to me to be demeaning of our engineering achievements as a species. I do not, however, consider that it is morally any worse than looking at the cover girl on "Hello" magazine and memorising the face to use later in a mental erotic scene. It's a thousand times safer than trying the sort of auto-erotic play which led to the deaths of David Carradine and Michael Hutchinson.

Once you can understand (without agreeing) how the act would seem to him, and understand the huge disconnect between that act and your reality, you might be better able to see the event as being on a par with him going out and getting drunk, and peeing into a flowerpot in the town square. It's poor judgement on his part, but by itself not relationship-threatening. Furthermore, he is the one to be embarrassed about it, it is not any reflection on you nor on his love for you.

Don't bury the event forever. Talk about it, understand why he felt he wanted to do it, and move on. This is not a fork in the road of your relationship, it's a wrong turn that can be rectified by simply pulling over and asking (each other) for directions to get back to the road you wanted to be on.


Be at peace,

Z

Zen65

Miss Fluff wrote: »

Regardless of what his excuses are, online dating sites are a breeding ground for extra-marital affairs.

Of course you are correct, Miss Fluff, but OP's partner was not (as I understand it) using a DATING site. It was a porn/sex chat site. Unlike dating sites these sites do not involve any exchange of personal information, and the person at the other end has no intention of meeting you. They're performing for money.

Perhaps you are correct and I completely misunderstood what OP was saying? But I've read her post and see no mention of a dating site.


Be at peace,

Z

LegacyUser

Zen thank you so much.Your post has made me cry.

There wasn't even cameras involved, it was just typing.

I am very much one of those people who likes to understand the mechanics of what people do and why. The logic of their actions. I said earlier that I kind of understand why he did it...or rather, why he kept doing it. You have put my understanding into words that I just couldn't. Again, I'm not saying it makes it right - I'm just saying, that's how I understand it.

It doesn't change the fact that I felt totally and completely shocked, betrayed, horrified, heartbroken...you name it.Everything.Weirdly enough, I don't think I'd mind it so much if it was just looking at pictures of naked women. But this hit me for 6.

He's admitted himself - it's a stupid, stupid thing to cause the end of a relationship over. And knowing him like I do, knowing our relationship like I do, it's an even stupider thing to see as the end of our relationship. I love him so much...and I know I've said it before but I know how much he loves me.Thank you so much for putting it to me like that. We are talking, we will consider counselling. I'm so glad that the instant reaction from everybody is not "break up", because...............there's so much more here, too much to not at least try and make it work.We will keep talking.Thanks.

LegacyUser

I hear what you're saying sunflower27.Which is why I'm finding it so hard to trust him again. I know that.
But I equally know that we have too much here to just walk away instantly. If everyone did that at the first hint of trouble, nobody would ever have a relationship.
I have to at least try.WE have to at least try.

liah

When did she say it was porn/sex chat?

Did I miss something? As far as we know we don't know exactly what medium he used, I just see a lot of assumptions.

LegacyUser

Sorry Sunflower27, just reread your post.....only the once it's happened.(as in, I've only found out about it once, it hasn't re-occured since)

LegacyUser

And again - to clarify - it was online chatting sites, typing only, no cameras, no dating sites.
Sorry for multiple posts.

LegacyUser

Guys like really pi** me off, in a stable steady relationship yet choose to go online, chat up single women in the pretense they are single too! Its the reason women dont trust men on these sites, and why they have a bad name, because of guys like your Boyfriend!

He is an emotional cheater, directing his energy outside of the relationship..

its a sign of unsteady foundations in your relationship.. first it will be hiding behind the protection of a computer screen... next it could be. "oh i was drunk and my lips fell onto her's"

he is weak and does not deserve you, cut your losses and move on..

Miss Fluff

trust again?? wrote: »

And again - to clarify - it was online chatting sites, typing only, no cameras, no dating sites.
Sorry for multiple posts.

Ah ok, I completely misconstrued it as him chatting to real actual girls on an Irish dating site where he would have the opportunity to meet up with them if he wanted. So he ahs basically been using a porn/sex chat site then?

LegacyUser

Miss Fluff - yes

Sunflower - I AM vulnerable.There's no way to make myself strong in this. The obvious option seems to everyone, as I've said "walk away, never speak to him again" etc,etc.
But I don't want to.Not yet. And yes that makes me sound vulnerable. In the world of internet advice, where things are black and white, it does.But relationships are grey. I call this cheating. But I'm willing to work on it.I know how this goes.Once a cheat, always a cheat, as far as I'm concerned. Equally, I know my OH. I've even seen his profile on one of those sites. And knowing him like I do, I know the comment he's written is basically "I'm trying to sound like I know what I'm doing but I don't really".

Sounds totally dumb doesn't it? I know.But as has been pointed out, I also know him.

Can't you see why I want to at least try and work on this?And look....God, I'm going to sound like such an incredible weirdo saying this.....we got together young, and....we still haven't slept together.As in, full, penetrative sex.

I can't believe I've actually put that out there.We just decided we wanted to wait. So can you see now why I'm willing to work on this? 9 years, living together, been through a lot and he's okay with waiting. Why would I NOT want to work on this?? This is a man that has respected my wishes from day 1, who was willing to wait, who has put me before absolutely everything else at all times. God, I know this sounds so stupid (and I'm in tears again)....but seriously, can you not see why I'd want to at least try??? That's why he didn't have a clue what I'd like...why he's still uncertain.

Can I make myself sound any stupider??

cafecolour

trust again?? wrote: »

And again - to clarify - it was online chatting sites, typing only, no cameras, no dating sites.
Sorry for multiple posts.

Assuming, I understand you correctly, IMHO this is much closer to porn (or SEX! the video game!) than it is to cheating. First, to be blunt, at least half and probably more, of the 'women' your fiance has been chatting with were really men pretending to be women. It's almost just like roleplaying interactive porn, or working together to write a porn story you'd both like. So in his brain, he probably didn't think of it anything like cheating, and I wouldn't worry he's going down that path.

This is versus trolling an online personal ad site - where you are looking at real people and are chatting only with women you are interested in. Versus sex chat where you are basically fantasizing, and the other person is pretending to be your fantasy (and vice versa). They even have computer programs to sex chat with.

seenitall

trust again?? wrote: »

So can you see now why I'm willing to work on this? 9 years, living together, been through a lot and he's okay with waiting. Why would I NOT want to work on this?? This is a man that has respected my wishes from day 1, who was willing to wait, who has put me before absolutely everything else at all times. God, I know this sounds so stupid (and I'm in tears again)....but seriously, can you not see why I'd want to at least try??? That's why he didn't have a clue what I'd like...why he's still uncertain.

Can I make myself sound any stupider??

OP, calm down. No one on here is judging you for anything. You are putting way too much importance on what people on RI threads think of you and your relationship. You don't sound stupid either, just mildly hysterical, but that is understandable too, you are upset.

You came on here looking for some opinions, and you are getting them, but you should take them with the good will that they were proffered with and also with a pinch of salt. As you have said yourself, you know your b/f and your relationship better than anyone else, so no one on here will be able to somehow magically destroy what the two of you have just by saying "dump him" or whatever. It is all about the two of you and you are the only people who will sort this out, what anyone else says is just friendly advice at best.

Just take a few deep breaths and talk to your boyfriend. Personally, I don't think that what he has done is a dumpable offence, but it does raise trust issues for the two of you. If you feel it as a betrayal, then there is a good chance it is a betrayal of sorts. He does need to know just how deeply you feel about these things. Talk to him, sort it out. If he loves you, he will want to rebuild the trust.

Best wishes.

dearg lady

I'd have to agree with a few others who say this isn't a reason to dump him. From what you've said, you guys have a pretty good relationship. I had something similiar happen to me before with a boyfriend, and it hurt a LOT. Probably the only thing that will make you feel better is time. Talk to him about it, and slowly rebuild the trust, if that's what you want. You shouldn't feel guilty for wanting to stay with him.
Best of luck with the future OP

Miss Fluff

Having this clarified also makes me think it is not a dumpable offence. You really need to sit down and discuss it together.

And on another note, he has waited nine years to have sex with you. When are you proposing to consummate the relationship? Or are you intending not to? Are you both virgins? I mean if he's on sex sites and he has noit had sex presumeably in nine years then don't you think this really needs to be addressed more than anything OP?

Wagon

trust again?? wrote: »

Can't you see why I want to at least try and work on this?And look....God, I'm going to sound like such an incredible weirdo saying this.....we got together young, and....we still haven't slept together.As in, full, penetrative sex.

I can't believe I've actually put that out there.We just decided we wanted to wait. So can you see now why I'm willing to work on this? 9 years, living together, been through a lot and he's okay with waiting. Why would I NOT want to work on this??

Why exactly haven't you slept with each other? It's been 9 years. And i know, people will want to wait until the right time and that's fine but it sounds like to me that he is starting to get a little pissed off with waiting. Are you absolutely sure he is okay continuing to wait? Because I'm starting to see more and more why he may have done this.

AJG

Agree with Wagon and Miss Fluff. Waiting is fine but 9 years! Your living together too and presumably sharing a bed? After weighing it up I can see why he might have indulged in some internet fantasy and I mean he seems to have good cause to be doing a lot worse (but he seems to have proven himself to be a better person than many) Maybe this might be the elephant in the room that needs addressing.

I'm trying to put myself in his position. I think he would have to be very understanding to wait that long. All I can conjure is the image of some poor guy carrying his scrotum around in a wheel barrow and extremely frustrated by the place he finds himself in (I know that sounds callous but I'm having a hard time relating to the situation).

Zen65

trust again?? wrote: »

And again - to clarify - it was online chatting sites, typing only, no cameras, no dating sites.

trust again?? wrote: »

And look....God, I'm going to sound like such an incredible weirdo saying this.....we got together young, and....we still haven't slept together.As in, full, penetrative sex.

Now these are two details that probably should have been mentioned in the first post, OP. Not to worry, the picture is a little clearer. What remains unclear is just how young are you both, and what are you waiting for before having sex with your partner?

Since the web site now appears to have only been an adult chat room (no credit cards, no screen performances) I think you should cut your partner a lot of slack. You say yourself that he has not got a lot of support in terms of friends and family, and you seem to have decided collectively (or was it simply your decision?) not to have sex, despite being together for a 9 years. I think you should really not overestimate the significance of him simply chatting to others in an adult way, it's starting to sound like a fairly modest form of release for him.

Be at peace,

Z

LegacyUser

OP here.

Sorry, I was a bit hysterical earlier, I was very upset.Thanks seenitall, you are right. I didn't really want to say anything about sex because I knew what people's reactions would be. Let's just say, we've done pretty much everything else except have full, penetrative sex - and do, on a regular basis.It was a collective decision not to have sex, for reasons I won't go into, and funnily enough, I'm pretty open to it right now, and have been for a good while, but he says he's torn between wanting to hang on (again, for reasons I won't go into), and wanting to do it.Yes we are both virgins.Yes we do pretty much everything else you can imagine.....as I said before I know it sounds silly, but it's our relationship at the end of the day.

Thanks for all the advice, it's good to get some other perspectives. No there were no credit cards or dating sites involved. I know (and he's confirmed) it's something he did every few months, and that was it.Chatting online with women...cybersex, whatever you want to call it.No cameras.No paying.No meeting for dates.No pretending he was single.Nothing else.

Your points are all excellent, and I have taken them on board. We've discussed it again this evening, he's open to some sort of counselling if he feels it's something he can't stay away from, but he's going to try his best to. (which might sound like I'm compromising, but it's a compromise I'm okay with, because his best tends to be excellent).We've discussed sex....the response was as I said above.We talk, our relationship is very open, so that's not a problem.

I suppose I better ask the mods to lock this...I've probably got all the advice I'm going to get...so thanks to everyone again.

And yes, I know it's a totally weird situation, but it had me very upset.

LegacyUser

OP, I went through something similar a few years ago.
My boyfriend and I met very young, and we moved a little too quick I guess. 2 years in, and he freaked out, broke up with me, moved out, partied, drank and slept with a few girls.
I was heartbroken. He didn't cheat, but it felt like he did.

Once he'd seen what else was out there, he realised what we'd had and wanted it back.
He learned very quickly that the grass isn't always greener!
We stayed apart for a year. I wanted nothing to do with him.
After that year, we started talking. It took a long time, but we did get back together, and are still together now, 3 years on.

I am going to be honest. It took a LONG time for me to get over what happened and to trust him again.
I lashed out. I brought it up in every argument. I had to deal with it in my own way.
After about a year and a half, I got to a point when I didn't think about it every day.
He made a mistake, but he realised it and took responsibility for his actions.
We love each other and we got through it.

You will have good days and bad days, and he needs to understand this as well as you.
It will take time, and understanding, and love, but most importantly, communication.

If this is worth saving, and I think it is, you will get through this.
Be patient.

Best of luck x

LegacyUser

Thanks I'vebeenthere.

I'm okay, we're doing a lot of talking. I'm now at the stage where I genuinely know in my head that what he has done wasn't that awful realistically, especially in comparison to what some other people have found.But it just was at the time - the shock of it.

So I'm okay, but every so often I just feel I've been kicked in the guts. I get this awful anxiety in my stomach.We've talked so much, everything is out in the open and we know where we are going. The problem is I'm unemployed and snowed in. I literally have nothing else to think about all day. I spend the day obsessing about...I don't even know what I'm obsessing about! Just keep getting these attacks of absolute panic inside me.I don't know why because I know what I feel, I know what we want, I know what I want....so why do my insides suddenly keep lurching? And then I move on to obsessing about obsessing and wondering will I ever be normal again....(sigh)

I'm just hoping it gets better over time.

Ickle Magoo

trust again?? wrote: »

I suppose I better ask the mods to lock this...I've probably got all the advice I'm going to get...so thanks to everyone again.

I see you have posted again since posting the above - just say if you decide you want the thread locked.

Ickle

LegacyUser

Actually thanks Ickle, could you lock the thread please???