convert to electric?

cantdecide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion

Anyone have any knowledge or opinions on the prospect of converting a car from Internal Combustion to electric?

TBH, I had no idea it was possible. Has it ever been done on this side of the pond?

--Kaiser--

For what reason? Just to inconvenience yourself? Electricity in this country is mostly produced from fossil fuels, therefore it's not going to be 'environmentally friendly' to use an electric car. Unless you have your own solar array.

cantdecide

The way I understand it, the power station burns fossil fuels with a huge amount of efficiency compared to internal combustion engine.

--Kaiser--

cantdecide wrote: »

The way I understand it, the power station burns fossil fuels with a huge amount of efficiency compared to internal combustion engine.

Do you have any stats/ evidence to back this up or do you want to feel better about yourself? You sound like the type of person who buys a Prius and thinks they're being environmentally friendly.

If you really want to be environmentally friendly, then buy a (second-hand) bike.

kodute

The real question here is why would you bother? If its just for fun then knock yourself out, but if you feel your going to get any financial/environmental benefit out of it then don't bother.

robtri

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Do you have any stats/ evidence to back this up or do you want to feel better about yourself? You sound like the type of person who buys a Prius and thinks they're being environmentally friendly.

If you really want to be environmentally friendly, then buy a (second-hand) bike.

actually its true, a fossil fueled power plant is more efficient than an internal combustion engine...

to get an accurate figure for an electric car, just look at the back of your ESB bill, it tells you the avergare CO2 per KWH... they work out the electricas cars KWH per km and figure out CO2...

IIRC, as i have done these calculations before, an electric car will produce around the 80 g per KM .......
so yes they are more efficient and lower CO2... but the big savings are made in the cost of "filling up"

Some guy on here converted a compact BMW to electric, looney waste of time, cash and everything else me thinks.

cantdecide

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

You sound like the type of person who buys a Prius and thinks they're being environmentally friendly.

If you really want to be environmentally friendly, then buy a (second-hand) bike.

Nice.

I've owned had everything from 325s to 'tegs to classics to B4 Legacys to sports bikes.

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Do you have any stats/ evidence to back this up or do you want to feel better about yourself?

No more than you have I suspect. This is a first enquiry and I'm not here to please you. If you can't help....

--Kaiser--

cantdecide wrote: »

Nice.

No more than you have I suspect. This is a first enquiry and I'm not here to please you. If you can't help....

Well, if you don't know that it's significantly more efficient, why would you bother? That's without factoring in;

Time
Money
Short time needed between recharges
Lack of places to recharge
Danger to pedestrians (too quiet)

cantdecide

RoverJames wrote: »

Some guy on here converted a compact BMW to electric, looney waste of time, cash and everything else me thinks.

Any idea who? I expect it'll probably turn out to be a waste of time and money right now. However, my friend feels (and I'm inclined to agree) that it may be a way of avoiding being punished by Biffo on the back of sanctimonious environmetalism.

Plus I bet it's an interesting process.

cantdecide

http://www.jtmpower.ie/index.php?target=news&news_id=21&page=1#21

cantdecide

cantdecide wrote: »

Any idea who? I expect it'll probably turn out to be a waste of time and money right now. However, my friend feels (and I'm inclined to agree) that it may be a way of avoiding being punished by Biffo on the back of sanctimonious environmetalism.

Plus I bet it's an interesting process.

I honestly can't remember

CarMuppet

I've been a petrolhead all my life.... but recenltly got a spin in a Tesla.....

I have to say (while munching on my hat) I can see 'the case' for an electric car based on performance... not the eco-friendly-save-the-whale stuff... (imo).

Joe 90

From your own point of view it might be an interesting exercise but I don't see how you would ever get back the money that it costs you.
From the point of view of saving the environment, yes the fixed power stations will be more efficient than your car in the use of fossil fuel but I suspect that by the time you take in the transmission losses, the losses in your charger system, the losses in the battery and the additional power you waste lugging around several hundred pounds of batteries you might not do much saving.
The fact is, the only savings with an electric car are because petrol and diesel are subject to a high rate of tax while the electricity from the mains is not. I would bet that if/when electric cars appear in any significant number they would be subject to some additional form of tax to make up for the loss in revenues from petrol/diesel tax.
But it sounds like fun so why not do it?

langdang

Even the thought of trying to get through all the red tape with your average civil servant or insurance company phone monkey, or the NCT.... :eek:

Owen

I've a classic Mini shell I picked up on Sunday (After waiting for ages for it), which I'm going to be restoring. It's currently engineless, and one of my ideas was to electrify the drivetrain, and put solar panels into the entire roof.

Doing the conversion, not so hard actually, you can just take an electric forklift motor, and engineer some sort of link between its output shaft, and the gearboxes input spline, fill the car with batteries, and buy off the shelve controllers from the dozens of manufacturers doing conversion kits out there.

The problem comes when you want to use it afterwards, unless you've an all encompassing motor trade policy, it'll be difficult to get it insured!

langdang

langdang wrote: »

average civil servant or insurance company phone monkey

:rolleyes:

In all fairness, no need for that.

Zubeneschamali

PaintDoctor wrote: »

one of my ideas was to electrify the drivetrain, and put solar panels into the entire roof.

Be aware that solar panels on the whole roof will not really help to run the car.

A little fan on the dash, maybe.

Owen

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Be aware that solar panels on the whole roof will not really help to run the car.

A little fan on the dash, maybe.

And the award for Captain obvious goes to ... Captain Obvious.

Of course they won't run the car, but they will contribute to the other current drains on the car, the likes of indicators, radio, etc. If you could have a small separate circuit powered by those panels (Which I measured delivering 60 Watts on an overcast day) and a little battery, it would just make life in the car a little easier.

I really did sit down and put a lot of thought into this, even chatted to some of the conversion companies in the states who are doing lots of kits for various cars. I figured the Mini would be ideal as it's a small car, relatively light weight, and there's plenty of fibreglass/carbon fibre replacement panels available out there to save even more weight.

Sounds like a challenging and interesting DIY project. Probably pretty pointless from a cost/environmental point of view, but then the best DIY projects are always slightly pointless! I say go for it.

Oh and peak oil is currently predicted for 2014, so who knows, maybe the OP is on to something.

cantdecide

PaintDoctor wrote: »

..I really did sit down and put a lot of thought into this, even chatted to some of the conversion companies in the states...

Spill the beans Owen

Does it have to be a car model specific kit? What about auto transmission? Are there serious manufacturers or are there ebay bluffers selling "kits"? I heard you effectively need a donor electric milk float or forklift?

stimpson

PaintDoctor wrote: »

And the award for Captain obvious goes to ... Captain Obvious.

Of course they won't run the car, but they will contribute to the other current drains on the car, the likes of indicators, radio, etc. If you could have a small separate circuit powered by those panels (Which I measured delivering 60 Watts on an overcast day) and a little battery, it would just make life in the car a little easier.

I really did sit down and put a lot of thought into this, even chatted to some of the conversion companies in the states who are doing lots of kits for various cars. I figured the Mini would be ideal as it's a small car, relatively light weight, and there's plenty of fibreglass/carbon fibre replacement panels available out there to save even more weight.

You'd be better off with panels on top of the garage at home setup to get the best from the sun. Use these to charge a battery and swap batteries at night.

Check out 99mpg.com for a wealth of info

Owen

cantdecide wrote: »

Spill the beans Owen

Does it have to be a car model specific kit? What about auto transmission? Are there serious manufacturers or are there ebay bluffers selling "kits"? I heard you effectively need a donor electric milk float or forklift?

You can do all sorts of stuff. One guy I talked to pretty much recommended finding a crashed G Wiz and gutting it for parts.

Huge community here - http://www.diyelectriccar.com/

I'll have to wait until I'm home to dig out some more links, but you can pretty much buy anything you want. There's companies in the states doing physical conversion kits for specific cars, and there's DIY kits where you can go wrecking your car yourself. There's a guy on Youtube who took a yellow MINI Clubman and electrified it. He's got tons of videos on the subject.

alias no.9

It's an interesting project, definitely keep us up to date if you go ahead with it.

Seweryn

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh and peak oil is currently predicted for 2014, so who knows, maybe the OP is on to something.

95% of Irish electricity is generated from fossil fuels, so the electric car is not a solution for this problem.

Owen

Should point out that even though I looked into this for a good long while, I'll probably put a dinosaur powered engine back into the shell when I've rebuilt it. And then nail a supercharger onto it.

mchammer

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Should point out that even though I looked into this for a good long while, I'll probably put a dinosaur powered engine back into the shell when I've rebuilt it. And then nail a supercharger onto it.

Just wondering if you came across a good source for a suitably powered electric motor (secondhand) during your investigation or if you could recommend one?

looking in to a similar type project for 73 beetle
Cheers
MC

Owen

Still have the project car, but I've done nothing with it yet. No time

Only suitable motors I came across are from electric forklifts, otherwise you're paying for a purpose built motor.

Mr Benevolent

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Still have the project car, but I've done nothing with it yet. No time

Only suitable motors I came across are from electric forklifts, otherwise you're paying for a purpose built motor.

Jam in a VTEC engine. Far more fun. Just as hard to insure though.

langdang

Confab wrote: »

Jam in a VTEC engine. Far more fun.

Twould seize up in no time surely????



http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/1860919

Mr Benevolent

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/1860919[/QUOTE]

I want.

keithclancy

Seweryn wrote: »

95% of Irish electricity is generated from fossil fuels, so the electric car is not a solution for this problem.

http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Statistics_Publications/SEI_Renewable_Energy_2010_Update/RE_in_Ire_2010update.pdf

More like Renewables accounted for 14.4% of Electricity Generation in Ireland.

The installed wind capacity as of 12 January 2010 was 1,264 MW contributing to the overall renewable capacity of
1,441 MW

Thats more generation than the Unterwesser Facility in Germany thats shut down at the moment which is 1410MW

Renewable Energy isn't doing too badly at the moment, however people should think beyond the plug in the wall, its completely possible to have your own Energy Generation and sell it back to the Grid, in the form of Wind/Water/Solar/ Geothermal (heating)

E.G.
http://www.hydro.mb.ca/earthpower/how_it_works.shtml

I would love an Electric car for scooting around the city, over here you can get everywhere by train for longer distance. In Ireland your boned as public transport is shocking.

unkel

Dude in the states converted his Porsche 928 to full electric. His next plan was to increase power and reduce weight by replacing all the lead acid batteries with the latest ni-cad ones. He sure has no shortage of funds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ICCsJI2wdI

Owen

Confab wrote: »

Jam in a VTEC engine. Far more fun. Just as hard to insure though.

One of the guys in our club has a Z Car. VTEC on board. Insane yoke.

derry

The environmental case for electric cars is weak at best

The best case 7 stage gas electric generation plant in Holland with local warm water heating gets ~87% efficiency at peak loads eg the breakfast and supper times when there is the most demand for electricity

Coal ,oil and most gas electric generation is at peak more like ~60% efficiency

Factor in night time off peak and the electric generation stations efficiency drops to more like ~40% with base load calculations added in

We call this base load where ~80% of electric power is generated night and day even though there isn't much demand at night with ,maybe 20% power inputs from quick ramp up electric power generation from less efficient sources like Jet turbine engines

Then there is line transmission losses ~5%

Then there is losses in battery charger ~20% and ~30% losses in converting lead acid into electric stored power

So we can say approx that 100 units of power from electric power will store about ~20 units of power in the lead acid (maybe more at night time when you factor in the power was going to waste anyway )

Roughly ~20% efficiency from the electric power grid to lead acid or lipo batteries

Then the electric engine AC type might give back ~80% efficiency ( often less with DC types about 70% )
Factor in losses like rolling resistance air drag and others losses like effeicy of battery maybe ~80 and speed controller ~90% and we might get back ~12% efficiency global return for the whole exercise .
Best case with the state of the art AC engines and light weight lithium batteries we might on a good day get ~20% global return on energy input with probably ~15% global energy as the norm


Then we can expect average ~300 cycles for the lead acid battery types before replacement .These have to be melted down and recycled which takes energy .Alternatively we can use lithium types with maybe 2000 cycles as he norm but often cost a lot more

When you factor in the replacement costs of the batteries the cost per mile is often similar to petrol of diesel type cars


Enter the petrol cars
On a good day don't expect more than ~7.5% global efficiency
The ~30% engine efficiency has then got losses in transmission air drag rolling resistance etc.
On highways at 55MPH efficiency could be as high as ~15% but ~12% tends to be the norm
Then there is the fact that it often takes three gallons of oil to make 10 gallons of petrol get into the tank of the car.
Eg oil used to suck oil from ground ship it and convert crude oil into refined petrol and then get it to the garage forecourt for us to put it in our tanks

So the industry average for global efficiency for petrol cars is often rated at ~5% (diesel can often be global efficiency ~6%)
Electric cars global efficiency is often rated at ~10%
Hybrid early generation made a car maybe global efficiency 6%

From a simple point of view if you commute from Bray to Dublin or Wicklow to Dublin distances forget it there is no way any electric car be made to be economical or fast enough to meet your needs in terms of range and cost per mile
If your living in Stillorgan or Rathmines commuting to work or doing local school runs and doing short range runs particularly in stop start traffic there is stronger case for getting a electric car

The older generation of Hybrids were easily outclassed with more economical Diesel engine cars which did the job cheaper and better and did similar MPG equivalents as Hybrids

More modern Hybrids have still be verified ???


However with the rise of revolution's in the Arab regions oil going to maybe $200 a barrel and maybe oil supplies reduced for many years in chaos in that region having a electric runabout might not be such a dumb idea

However there does exist other ways to fuel a car
They can run on syn gas basically burning wood logs twigs or leaves in a special oven that can run the car like they did in WW2.

hope that info inspires wanna be electric conversion types

Me I think I will go with investing in carrot to put in front of the donkey and a good whip to make the stubborn donkey move the cart

Derry

unkel

derry wrote: »

Me I think I will go with investing in carrot to put in front of the donkey and a good whip to make the stubborn donkey move the cart

De Valera and McQuaid would be proud of you, derry

derry

unkel wrote: »

De Valera and McQuaid would be proud of you, derry

Yep when all is sad and done yer cant beat good old manure power. If your short on fuel there is plenty of grass on the sides of the road to fuel the beast while you go off and do your thing in the fields with the mot .

Derry

derry

Well it seems that Romania has banned thier Donkeys and horse from the roads an d they all ended up in our fast burgers meals so its getting hard to buy a cheap nag

Apart from the lack of horse to buy It came to my attention that there is maybe a new EXPERIMENTAL solution for Electric cars that might work and make it more interesting for those who do low millage every day and don t need fast charging and want to use the cheaper lead acid car batteries on the market (and will keep the batteries temperature above zero degrees in the winter time

The average life time of run of the mill Lead acid batteries is about 1000 cycle 4 year on light cycle duty .Heavy deep cycle they will only return 20 cycles so that means that 250 cycle deep cycle versions are the only solution and that costs big bread
However it seems that replacing the sulfuric acid in car batteries with another material basicaly distiled water with aluminum salt like Epsom salts will convert these useless batteries in to wonder horses that will deep cycle and last up to 15 years in deep cycle abuse.
There will be drop in voltage down to 1.5volts per cell and the battery wont work in winter time what temp it freezes at i don't know
However it will go from high of 15 volts down to 8 volts and come back no problems .It will recharge quickly about two hours so better than lead acid of about 8 hours

If one puts 6000 euro of batteries in the car and gets 15 years from them it will be economic.The present deep cycle when you factor in the battery 2 to 4 year replacement works out closer to the same price as petrol per mile

All the info shows that converting second hand batteries for this use will probably not work so well as the plates will have lead sulfate blocking the power demands .Converting the old batteries works well for light demands such as solar battery back up solutions

lots of info on youtube converting lead acid batteries to Alum


Hope that helps

Derry