Time to bring down the Government?

roosh

I know the time has probably long since passed for that, but given that the bailout has been agreed, should we seek to bring down the government and have a general election before the Budget is delivered.

I must state that my opinion is largely and uneducated one, with regard to the effect that this would have in the markets and the bailout, but I think that the people of this country need to demonstrate that we still have some power.

I don't think that it would achieve anything major by way of changing the fortunes of the country - we will still be faced with the austerity measures that are now unaviodable, but it would help to eliminate this sense of helplessness that I think most people feel in light of all that has gone on.

This could all be done peacefully, simply by organising a rally outside Áras an Úachtarán calling for the president to dissolve the Dáil and call an election.

I'm sure that we wouldn't lose the bailout as a result, because Ireland has now become "too big to fail", or rather, too indebted to fail. We would still have a new budget in the near future, but we, as an electorate could show that we are still important - in this country at least.

Thoughts and opinions welcome.

mikemac

mangaroosh wrote: »

This could all be done peacefully, simply by organising a rally outside Áras an Úachtarán calling for the president to dissolve the Dáil and call an election.

I would suggest you have a read of the Constitution

roosh

feelingstressed wrote: »

I would suggest you have a read of the Constitution

this is kind of what I mean by thoughts and opinions.

can the president not dissolve the Dáil?

zig

well while its a nice idea its very hard to put together without having a structure behind it, e.g. the march on saturday had ICTU organising, so maybe get in touch with a political party and see. Its possible the budget wont pass anyway , and this will likely bring down the government, and even if it doesnt, theres an election coming very soon anyway.

MagicMarker

mangaroosh wrote: »

I know the time has probably long since passed for that, but given that the bailout has been agreed, should we seek to bring down the government and have a general election before the Budget is delivered.

I must state that my opinion is largely and uneducated one, with regard to the effect that this would have in the markets and the bailout, but I think that the people of this country need to demonstrate that we still have some power.

I don't think that it would achieve anything major by way of changing the fortunes of the country - we will still be faced with the austerity measures that are now unaviodable, but it would help to eliminate this sense of helplessness that I think most people feel in light of all that has gone on.

This could all be done peacefully, simply by organising a rally outside Áras an Úachtarán calling for the president to dissolve the Dáil and call an election.

I'm sure that we wouldn't lose the bailout as a result, because Ireland has now become "too big to fail", or rather, too indebted to fail. We would still have a new budget in the near future, but we, as an electorate could show that we are still important - in this country at least.

Thoughts and opinions welcome.

You realise the budget is next week?

roosh

zig wrote: »

well while its a nice idea its very hard to put together without having a structure behind it, e.g. the march on saturday had ICTU organising, so maybe get in touch with a political party and see. Its possible the budget wont pass anyway , and this will likely bring down the government, and even if it doesnt, theres an election coming very soon anyway.

cheers, I was wondering how such a thing would be organised, I know the ICTU organise their own, but was wondering how other general rallies get organised.

I know there will be an election soon, but it could be a few months away yet, but as an act it would send a message to the politicians of the country that we can still exercise some power, and despite the fact that we have taken all the lies that have been shovelled down to us, that that isn't something that the people of this country will accept any longer.

roosh

MagicMarker wrote: »

You realise the budget is next week?

I do.

Would a rally take longer to organise?

roosh

Really what I am trying to get at, is whether people think it is a message worth sending to the current, and future governments of this country. If so, why, if not why not?

Kiki10

Its 10 years too late for solving this problem. If any one was listening to eddy hobs or George lee for the last decade they would know that Brian Cowen walked into the stable (under Bertie) let the horse out and gave him a good slap on the arse. Now Brian is the one latching the stable door telling us "not to drag up the past and by the way you need a new horse"

Dorcha

Kiki10 wrote: »

Its 10 years too late for solving this problem. If any one was listening to eddy hobs or George lee for the last decade they would know that Brian Cowen walked into the stable (under Bertie) let the horse out and gave him a good slap on the arse. Now Brian is the one latching the stable door telling us "not to drag up the past and by the way you need a new horse"

There's going to be a general election in another month, or so, anyway, and the government will fall then. All that's in doubt is the depth of the fall. Most of us are hoping that Fianna Fail will be wiped from the political map, but that's probably hoping for a little too much.

All the same, I don't see what's wrong with marches and rallies about what the government have done; it won't bring them down right now, but it will help towards it.

As for worrying about the effect of protests on the market, take as your example, the Green Party. They weren't worried that announcing that they were withdrawing from the collation would affect Ireland negatively. (However they may find out that this latest example of trying to save their own skins regardless of the damage to the country will not go down well with the Irish people.

micro_dot

If we are a banjaxed country.
If we are about to flush every cent we have down a hole.
If we are about to default anyway, according to the market, or whatever it is.

Why say it and then sit back and let it happen? The unions get 100,000 people out - peacefully. And then they send everyone home, to our doom.

If we are where we are, why not face where we really are, like our interest rates say? I don't know if Icelanders read their constitution before taking to the streets to give default a mandate.

Like Richard Bruton, they have the government on the ropes and then they pull back.

We have a week to give Jackie Healy Rae and Michael Lowry the heebie jeebies about voting in the budget. A lunchtime protest outside your local authority venue might help. If unions don't want to strike, get people to harangue anyone and everyone they can.

jmayo

Kiki10 wrote: »

Its 10 years too late for solving this problem. If any one was listening to eddy hobs or George lee for the last decade they would know that Brian Cowen walked into the stable (under Bertie) let the horse out and gave him a good slap on the arse. Now Brian is the one latching the stable door telling us "not to drag up the past and by the way you need a new horse"

We won't be able to get a new horse, we will be lucky if we can afford a clapped out old donkey.
Then again he wouldn't look out of place at the current cabinet table. :rolleyes:

wolfpawnat

jmayo wrote: »

We won't be able to get a new horse, we will be lucky if we can afford a clapped out old donkey.
Then again he wouldn't look out of place at the current cabinet table. :rolleyes:

What are you on about, our government will have beautiful pure bred Arabians while we are pulling the ploughs and carts ourselves!!!!!

Always the way.

Do we need a new gov, YES.

Is it too late for one that can save us, yes!

Will the boyo's make sure they are well looked after when they are kicked out. Most definately!!!!

optocynic

mangaroosh wrote: »

cheers, I was wondering how such a thing would be organised, I know the ICTU organise their own, but was wondering how other general rallies get organised.

I know there will be an election soon, but it could be a few months away yet, but as an act it would send a message to the politicians of the country that we can still exercise some power, and despite the fact that we have taken all the lies that have been shovelled down to us, that that isn't something that the people of this country will accept any longer.

I feel your passion, and I share it too. However, what difference would it make? Who do we have to vote for that represents the politics of common sense, and national interest. Who will NOT pander to the Unions? Not Labour anyway!!
Who will not pander to the special interests who financed their campaigns?
Not Fine Gael!

Can the Irish people themselves be trusted to vote in the best interests of the country, and not vote for the gombeen that is a member of their local GAA club, and got their brother in Law planning permission?

(Jackie Healy Rae is a prime example of this!)...

Unfortunately, I see no way out, and no prospects of change or gravitas in the Dail.

Do you think the Queen will have us back??:D

zig

OP, the best way to bring down the Government would be to attend the protest outside the dail on budget day. If this budget fails the government fails. Having your voice heard that day will have far more affect than any other day.

Dowdy20

i think it would be best to put the energy that people seem to have for a protest to better use.

why not go out and raise the spirits of the people of your community and try and make your town/city a more productive place.

protesting is a great idea when your sat at home but in reality all your doing is standing round Dublin for the day doing nothing in the freezing cold.

if thats what you want go ahead as its your right to. but i think it would be better spent trying to make your life better and those around you. small steps around you town/city will get the ball rolling. get the people going again and stop the moaning and groaning its doing no one any good at all.

Fr0g

Dowdy20 wrote: »

i think it would be best to put the energy that people seem to have for a protest to better use.

why not go out and raise the spirits of the people of your community and try and make your town/city a more productive place.

protesting is a great idea when your sat at home but in reality all your doing is standing round Dublin for the day doing nothing in the freezing cold.

if thats what you want go ahead as its your right to. but i think it would be better spent trying to make your life better and those around you. small steps around you town/city will get the ball rolling. get the people going again and stop the moaning and groaning its doing no one any good at all.

First we have to stop the the government from making things worse. Things won't improve until they stop getting worse.

Dowdy20

Fr0g wrote: »

First we have to stop the the governments from making things worse. Things won't improve until they stop getting worse.

but surely the people doing nothing wont help.

theres plenty to be doing now. i think people should stop relying on the star and the sun for info...find out themselves stop pointing fingers and sort out there own lives and help other as well.

the moaning and whining has gotten old now.

be assertive and solve your problems. don't wait for someone else to come along and do it. just get it done.

micro_dot

regarding moaning and whining, an East German told me once that the people who jumped the Wall were the ones who 'wouldn't fit into society anyway', that it wasn't the way East Germany was a basket case economically.

All the people who wouldn't, or couldn't, put up with what's happening here have left. That's get-up-and-go, not sitting back, if you like.

It is one thing to know something is happening, agree with it, and move on.

It is entirely different to know something is happening, like the National Pension Reserve going down a black hole, disagree with it, and let it happen.

That is part of the lack of leadership we have. People do want the best way out of a complete mess. And if the bailout was convincing, it wouldn't be a problem. But if leaders call it a banjax, can we really move on? Cheer up, this'll kill you?

If you agree with this asset strip, then fine. If you don't, then email your local representative at least, and tell him or her to push it down. Mandate.

Yixian

It's quite frankly an embarrassment that Leinster House wasn't occupied and the government physically removed from power weeks ago, I swear, even the crushingly apathetic Brits would have done it by now if this was happening in the UK.

Evidently the spirit of rebellion is completely and utterly dead in Ireland, that is perhaps the most tragic part of the last 2 years. From this point on it doesn't matter who is elected, they will know they can do exactly whatever they want and the public will all lie down like doormats and take it.

RichardAnd

OP, there will be an election before easter and we'll have a new government then. Before then, the budget needs to be passed.FF will go and rightfully so but the time is not right now.

optocynic

RichardAnd wrote: »

OP, there will be an election before easter and we'll have a new government then. Before then, the budget needs to be passed.FF will go and rightfully so but the time is not right now.

Absolutely. But I would like to see the other 'options' running give us some realistic and clear ideas and solutions.
None of the parties have managed to pry themselves away from the pandering to unions and special interests that has gotten us where we are.
I am waiting to be impressed by someone.

Bob_Latchford

micro_dot wrote: »

regarding moaning and whining, an East German told me once that the people who jumped the Wall were the ones who 'wouldn't fit into society anyway', that it wasn't the way East Germany was a basket case economically.

All the people who wouldn't, or couldn't, put up with what's happening here have left. That's get-up-and-go, not sitting back, if you like.

It is one thing to know something is happening, agree with it, and move on.

Very interesting, and the fact its been happening for over 100yrs to each or every other generation, means whats left is not great in the get up and go attitude. Whats lefyt would have more an attitude you need friends and powerful friends, turn a blind eye to what they do, its the way it works

Ireland has exported its rebels and non comformists, their children are changing other countries now

You could do a phd on that thesis.

Bob_Latchford

by coincidence just found this.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/seanad/2010/02/23/00012.asp

This is what happens if you dont conform in 21st century Ireland

Bob_Latchford

Just for balance, here is couple of other Irish Rebels in action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD2VpesAt2I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxucWmoQfN0&NR=1

Is it the same guy? Anyone know who it is?

roosh

zig wrote: »

OP, the best way to bring down the Government would be to attend the protest outside the dail on budget day. If this budget fails the government fails. Having your voice heard that day will have far more affect than any other day.

is there a protest on budget day?

at short notice that would be the best way about it.

The weather will probably keep numbers to a minimum though will it?

roosh

optocynic wrote: »

I feel your passion, and I share it too. However, what difference would it make? Who do we have to vote for that represents the politics of common sense, and national interest. Who will NOT pander to the Unions? Not Labour anyway!!
Who will not pander to the special interests who financed their campaigns?
Not Fine Gael!

Can the Irish people themselves be trusted to vote in the best interests of the country, and not vote for the gombeen that is a member of their local GAA club, and got their brother in Law planning permission?

(Jackie Healy Rae is a prime example of this!)...

Unfortunately, I see no way out, and no prospects of change or gravitas in the Dail.

Do you think the Queen will have us back??:D

Dowdy20 wrote: »

i think it would be best to put the energy that people seem to have for a protest to better use.

why not go out and raise the spirits of the people of your community and try and make your town/city a more productive place.

protesting is a great idea when your sat at home but in reality all your doing is standing round Dublin for the day doing nothing in the freezing cold.

if thats what you want go ahead as its your right to. but i think it would be better spent trying to make your life better and those around you. small steps around you town/city will get the ball rolling. get the people going again and stop the moaning and groaning its doing no one any good at all.

RichardAnd wrote: »

OP, there will be an election before easter and we'll have a new government then. Before then, the budget needs to be passed.FF will go and rightfully so but the time is not right now.

I agree with the sentiment of those who question what difference it would make in immediate and practical terms, it wouldn't really change anything in the short term by way of the political parties.

The effect it would have though, is that it would instill some sense of empowerment back into the irish people, who have been left feeling completely helpless in the face of everything that has gone on. It would to a certain extent, change the mood of the country and it would send a message to the politicians that the government is still answerable to the people. Granted, this is all a little late in the game, but it could still send this message.

There is a saying, "if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got". If we wait til easter for a general election, and elect a new government, we will be sending the message that while we disagree with this kind of politics, we are ultimately powerless to do anything about it. Any successive governement will know that all they need is to gain a majority in the Dáil and they can do what they like for 4years.

Dowdy, I agree with your sentiment, that we should get active at a local level, but there is nothing to say that both cannot be done. In the grand scheme of things, and with the length of time it will take us to get turn our fortunes around, the time dedicated to a one-off rally like that, would not leave people with no time for local level engagement. If anything it would send a message of empowerment to all people at local level that they can do something to change their fate.

The sense of apathy and helplessness, that can be felt all over the country, is part of the collective psychology of the country, and the people bringing down the government, even at this late stage, would go some way to affecting this psychological effect.

Atilathehun

mangaroosh wrote: »

I agree with the sentiment of those who question what difference it would make in immediate and practical terms, it wouldn't really change anything in the short term by way of the political parties.

The effect it would have though, is that it would instill some sense of empowerment back into the irish people, who have been left feeling completely helpless in the face of everything that has gone on. It would to a certain extent, change the mood of the country and it would send a message to the politicians that the government is still answerable to the people. Granted, this is all a little late in the game, but it could still send this message.

There is a saying, "if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got". If we wait til easter for a general election, and elect a new government, we will be sending the message that while we disagree with this kind of politics, we are ultimately powerless to do anything about it. Any successive governement will know that all they need is to gain a majority in the Dáil and they can do what they like for 4years.

Dowdy, I agree with your sentiment, that we should get active at a local level, but there is nothing to say that both cannot be done. In the grand scheme of things, and with the length of time it will take us to get turn our fortunes around, the time dedicated to a one-off rally like that, would not leave people with no time for local level engagement. If anything it would send a message of empowerment to all people at local level that they can do something to change their fate.

The sense of apathy and helplessness, that can be felt all over the country, is part of the collective psychology of the country, and the people bringing down the government, even at this late stage, would go some way to affecting this psychological effect.

Are you in the public / civil service?

zig

mangaroosh wrote: »

is there a protest on budget day?

at short notice that would be the best way about it.

The weather will probably keep numbers to a minimum though will it?

Yea, Ive a feeling it may be a big one (relatively), I know the socialist party are definitely having one at 6, I dont support them but isnt going to stop me from going but theres definitely other groups organising protests that evening too.
You may be right about the weather, hopefully itll clear up by then!! Its not looking like it though. Personally I feel i have to go, it probably wont achieve anything, but you never know , it might sway even one vital vote.

roosh

Atilathehun wrote: »

Are you in the public / civil service?

nope

roosh

zig wrote: »

Yea, Ive a feeling it may be a big one (relatively), I know the socialist party are definitely having one at 6, I dont support them but isnt going to stop me from going but theres definitely other groups organising protests that evening too.
You may be right about the weather, hopefully itll clear up by then!! Its not looking like it though. Personally I feel i have to go, it probably wont achieve anything, but you never know , it might sway even one vital vote.

good stuff.

It would be a good excuse for me to head to Dublin.

EDIT:what day is it on by the way?

kev68in

get ride of one shower of self centered self promoting ventriloquist dummies for another load of the very same wearing a different badges. what is going on here is mass conditioning we have all become conditioned to take all sorts of abuse from the so say elected persons in charge of this country its all a really bad joke.