Ireland ..don't pay, walk away.

antibailout

Irish people do not have any obligation to pay Anglo Irish bills.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iaWyEuoddQ




Euro game is up... democracy on the wane... very dangerous

EU tells Ireland NOT to have an election until the budget is decided

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gm9q8uabTs




EU diminishes democracy Euro failing politically
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMYHv-BfbBI


Iceland refused to pay their banks bills. They choose democracy and are free of our troubles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAeA4wdD_7o&feature=related



Where is Cowan these days ? Bullied by IMF and Eurocrats and about to sacrifice his people?

Is there anyone who can stand up and take us out of this mess.
Its not a time for squabbling about the pros and cons of the unions. Its time for unity to save Ireland. Is there anyone out there who can do that ?
Someone who is not afraid to put the frauds in jail.

My name is URL

Is it in any way possible to halt the bailout at this late stage? If the president went against the book and voiced disapproval about it would it make a blind bit of difference?

Brussels Sprout

What's the alternative?

Now there is a huge chorus of people screaming 'Default! Default!' like some sort of knee jerk reaction and as someone else said they're probably the same people who were screaming for a bailout before. Have they thought this through?

If we default then we are locked out of the markets. Effectively we have to balance our books immediately. Remember all the hoo-haa about taking 4-6 billion in cuts in the budget. Well that'd be nothing compared to the 20 billion that'd need to accounted for because that's the current shortfall in tax revenues.

In short, defaulting would lead to real austerity. Hundreds of thousands more would emigrate, schools and hospitals would be closed down, the public sector would be decimated and social welfare and pension payments would be a fraction of today's rates . Now I know there's probably people who fantasise about this sort of thing so that they can finally see all the dole scroungers/cosseted PS workers get their come uppance but this would be brutal. In Latvia for example women have had to turn to prostitution because there is no work and their already meagre social welfare gets cut after 9 months.

It's all good and well to say we're getting a raw deal but we're backed into a corner here and we haven't really got a lot of options.

dvpower

No one in their right mind would contemplate a full default. But a bit of debt restructuring maybe would ease the pain...

Shelflife

I saw the headlines on the sindo, didnt bother reading any more, as was outlined above, how would we pay the wages of our civil servants? we have no money . who would loan to someone who has welshed on their loans.

yes alot of the loans are not of our making but from a cash flow point of view we are screwed. the banks need an input of cash, if we default i would say there would be a run on the banks as people take their cash out.

defaulting is totally different to burning some of the loans/bond holders.

if you dont want guards/nurses/teachers/dole etc then default away.

amacachi

dvpower wrote: »

No one in their right mind would contemplate a full default. But a bit of debt restructuring maybe would ease the pain...

We shouldn't have been saddled with the banks' debt though, that's what people want to default on.

zig

Some scare posts here that arent very accurate. "No nurses, guards",wtf??
Before I start I just want to clarify here, when I say default Im referring to just paying back our sovereign debt, approx 90 Billion.

1: we still have money till mid next year,
2:We have pension reserve fund(although was there something on the radio today about that having been gambled away too? I hope not)
3: Our exchequer already has to be practically balanced by 2014, this would speed up the process but leave us in a position where we dont have to pay horrendous interest that will probably result in the death of our economy ANYWAY!!
4. We could print our own money again, if managed correctly we could see growth very quickly so long as we didnt devalue it too much.
5. There is options of Bilateral loans from Countries like England who may support the idea of us leaving the Euro.
6.We would be controlling our own finances again and not being ordered by EU to have budgets passed and deadlines met.
7. Once growth begins, later down the line, markets may gain interest again ,(no pun intended), after all they are in it to make money, if anything it might be an opportunity for them to make back some of the money they lost on us.

and last but not least (this is a personal one)...
8. While our country would go through massive massive changes very very quickly we would see the end of this crisis , the end of our country being sucked away by banks, both Irish and foreign, and most importantly for me personally, I wouldnt have to emigrate. I love this country and I want to live here.

antibailout

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

What's the alternative?

Now there is a huge chorus of people screaming 'Default! Default!' like some sort of knee jerk reaction and as someone else said they're probably the same people who were screaming for a bailout before. Have they thought this through?

If we default then we are locked out of the markets. Effectively we have to balance our books immediately. Remember all the hoo-haa about taking 4-6 billion in cuts in the budget. Well that'd be nothing compared to the 20 billion that'd need to accounted for because that's the current shortfall in tax revenues.

In short, defaulting would lead to real austerity. Hundreds of thousands more would emigrate, schools and hospitals would be closed down, the public sector would be decimated and social welfare and pension payments would be a fraction of today's rates . Now I know there's probably people who fantasise about this sort of thing so that they can finally see all the dole scroungers/cosseted PS workers get their come uppance but this would be brutal. In Latvia for example women have had to turn to prostitution because there is no work and their already meagre social welfare gets cut after 9 months.

It's all good and well to say we're getting a raw deal but we're backed into a corner here and we haven't really got a lot of options.

Real austerity ? that is what we are about to experience now with the coming budget and we will have a noose around our necks from the IMF and the EU.

Let the Anglo Irish pay their own bills or sink! Yes , we will have austerity measures but it will be for a much shorter period of time and it would not just be the poor who felt it as we will find with this coming budget which will go for the pockets of the poorest first.

Stop scare mongering about being locked out of the markets... and take a look at Iceland. the peole there were being bullied to take on the debts of the banks and their leader stood up to this bullying and refused to impose this burfen on his people

Did they sink ? No ... in fact they are doing fine, they refused to be frightened by the markets scaremongering and bullying and opted to act in the interests of their people as a democracy should...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUVKQraVF2w


There are many other options open to us rather than enslave the Irish people for the coming decades. We are not backed into a corner. we are being used to prop up a currency that is going to fail anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVH24e0LkXI

yosemite_sam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAfCQ-t7xY0&feature=related Our latest solution

antibailout

metrovelvet wrote: »

I think we should ask to join the UK again and promise to be good.

Well you shall have your wish then as this deal involves a massive loan from the UK as well, and Ireland will be indebted to them

metrovelvet

antibailout wrote: »

Well you shall have your wish then as this deal involves a massive loan from the UK as well, and Ireland will be indebted to them

Thats not what I meant.

roosh

would it be at all possible for a new government to withdraw the blanket guarantee for all bank debt, and just guarantee the deposits?

Amhran Nua

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

In short, defaulting would lead to real austerity. Hundreds of thousands more would emigrate, schools and hospitals would be closed down, the public sector would be decimated and social welfare and pension payments would be a fraction of today's rates .

If we were at 2004 expenditure levels we'd be breaking even right now.

I don't remember any of that apocalypse you described happening in 2004.

Default on those debts which should not be the responsbility of the Irish people is not only neccessary, it is just and right. I read in the papers today that the Europeans "went mad" at the suggestion. Let them, what are they going to do about it. Let them bail out their own banks, we're not on the hook for it.

ShowMeTheCash

antibailout wrote: »

Real austerity ? that is what we are about to experience now with the coming budget and we will have a noose around our necks from the IMF and the EU.

Let the Anglo Irish pay their own bills or sink! Yes , we will have austerity measures but it will be for a much shorter period of time and it would not just be the poor who felt it as we will find with this coming budget which will go for the pockets of the poorest first.

Stop scare mongering about being locked out of the markets... and take a look at Iceland. the peole there were being bullied to take on the debts of the banks and their leader stood up to this bullying and refused to impose this burfen on his people

Did they sink ? No ... in fact they are doing fine, they refused to be frightened by the markets scaremongering and bullying and opted to act in the interests of their people as a democracy should...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUVKQraVF2w


There are many other options open to us rather than enslave the Irish people for the coming decades. We are not backed into a corner. we are being used to prop up a currency that is going to fail anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVH24e0LkXI

I have to agree, the time to fix this has now past, as nation and the state we are in I am not confident we can fix this even if we had the government to do it. Looking back to the protests of PS workers back in 2009 I was a little put back by the attitude of people (I worked in the central bank), the country simply did not have the money to fund how the country was being run. The alternative to take less was always going to be well we cannot afford it now take none and close shop!

Our government has shown no leadership on this at all, words cannot describe how ###### off I am with this whole situation. For the youth of today, you want to make in the world, probably best go somewhere else!!

antibailout

yosemite_sam wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAfCQ-t7xY0&feature=related Our latest solution

It appears that the agreement will be finalised and announced this afternoon.

They managed to bully the Irish in 2010 and ignore the voice of the 120000 yesterday.

They managed to do it without the fuss created by the Greeks or the national strike protests expected.

If this is announced today, I hope the press will announce a national day of closure for mourning tomorrow for Ireland will have truly lost their Independence and without a whisper.

Here is the ' Proclamation of Dependance' from the Irish post

http://www.irishpost.ie/

Amhran Nua

antibailout wrote: »

If this is announced today, I hope the press will announce a national day of closure for mourning tomorrow for Ireland will have truly lost their Independence and without a whisper.

Why? Genuine question, after we have the books balanced, is there anything to stop us just telling the bondholders to take their little rumpelstiltskin act and hit the road?

Aka Ishur

antibailout wrote: »

Real austerity ? that is what we are about to experience now with the coming budget and we will have a noose around our necks from the IMF and the EU.

Let the Anglo Irish pay their own bills or sink! Yes , we will have austerity measures but it will be for a much shorter period of time and it would not just be the poor who felt it as we will find with this coming budget which will go for the pockets of the poorest first.

Stop scare mongering about being locked out of the markets... and take a look at Iceland. the peole there were being bullied to take on the debts of the banks and their leader stood up to this bullying and refused to impose this burfen on his people

Did they sink ? No ... in fact they are doing fine, they refused to be frightened by the markets scaremongering and bullying and opted to act in the interests of their people as a democracy should...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUVKQraVF2w


There are many other options open to us rather than enslave the Irish people for the coming decades. We are not backed into a corner. we are being used to prop up a currency that is going to fail anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVH24e0LkXI

If you actually spoke to anyone there you would realise that everything is not fine. Nobody can take holidays anymore because foreign currency is ridiculously expensive. Multinationals are still evacuating. Ordinary living costs, groceries and white goods have also gone thru the roof.

a148pro

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

If we default then we are locked out of the markets.

we already are locked out of the markets

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Well that'd be nothing compared to the 20 billion that'd need to accounted for because that's the current shortfall in tax revenues.

In short, defaulting would lead to real austerity. Hundreds of thousands more would emigrate, schools and hospitals would be closed down, the public sector would be decimated and social welfare and pension payments would be a fraction of today's rates .

this is what will happen if we take the bail out. we will need a minimum of 10 billion a year just to pay the interest on all our loans. maybe more. the budget is almost an irrelevancy in the context of those figures. how would we ever clear those loans?

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

It's all good and well to say we're getting a raw deal but we're backed into a corner here and we haven't really got a lot of options.

you're absolutely right, unless the IMF EU give us a loan at about 2-3% there is only one option

Cannibal Ox

The Iceland comparison is a non-runner I think. They are receiving money from the IMF (as well as Scandinavian countries) but they've been threatened with no access because of the money owed to Dutch and English investors from the collapse of Icesave. The referendum did vote against paying Dutch and English investors, but the new government put forward a bill to pay them back that was then (afaik) blocked by the supreme court, and in turn the IMF threatened them denial of funds if they didn't. Their government bonds are rated junk by at least one group, if not two now, they're trying to recapitalise the three banks they nationalised through private investment but they're being held up in parliament, and they're trying to figure out if they can let some of their citizens default on mortgages because some crazy high % is at risk. It's pretty messy.

Empire o de Sun

I've emigrated, and compared to the taxes in Ireland, I'm paying allot more in Germany. I pay close to 40% of my wages in tax. I'm not a big earner. Far Far from it. I'm way below the average industrial wage in Ireland. I'd say I'm paying more than in Ireland even after all the rises there. petrol tonight was € 1.46 /litre.

If Ireland doesn't take the bailout, the government won't be able to function after a while, teachers won't get paid, civil servants wont get paid etc. The money simply won't be there.

I think the interest rate is huge.

joe12345

/

EastTexas

I find it more than interesting who quickly and behind closed doors this is wrapped up.
Just in time for the markets to open on Monday.
Ah the markets.
But the Irish people signed away to pay for this for years to come if not indefinably weren’t asked or permitted to deliberate over THEIR future.
Personally I would rather make a bad judgment call and fail instead of letting somebody else decide for me.

IMHO, it’s not Ireland’s responsibility to save the Euro for a little while longer (until Spain pops off) but to save itself.

karlth

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

The Iceland comparison is a non-runner I think. They are receiving money from the IMF (as well as Scandinavian countries) but they've been threatened with no access because of the money owed to Dutch and English investors from the collapse of Icesave. The referendum did vote against paying Dutch and English investors, but the new government put forward a bill to pay them back that was then (afaik) blocked by the supreme court, and in turn the IMF threatened them denial of funds if they didn't. Their government bonds are rated junk by at least one group, if not two now, they're trying to recapitalise the three banks they nationalised through private investment but they're being held up in parliament, and they're trying to figure out if they can let some of their citizens default on mortgages because some crazy high % is at risk. It's pretty messy.

It certainly is messy, but Iceland didn't guarantee the banks. The senior debt holders(Icelandic and foreign) took the hit because their investments failed. The taxpayer didn't pay for the crash, the hit we took was because of the devaluation in our Krona (currency).

Our funding needs aren't as acute as Ireland's as we have a domestic currency. So the Icelandic government can fund itself easily with domestic bonds. The IMF and Nordic currency loans aren't being used, they are just kept in reserve. Iceland has a considerable trading surplus now.

In regards to the mortgage problem it has mostly to do with households carrying mortgages in foreign currencies which were judged to be illegal by the supreme court.