Why are the government acting like the EU have us by the balls and not the other...

hatrickpatrick

...way around?

6.7% interest rate suggested, and the government are going to accept this?

If I have it right, the EU need us to accept the bailout and to prop up our banks because of their own banks' bad debts to them.

So why don't our government just say to them "Look, either you play this our way and play fair or we'll just walk away from the bailout, continue with our own plans, let the banks go to hell as they should, and tough luck to anyone who made foolish investments in them"?

If the EU truly is desperate in terms of saving the Euro etc I can't imagine they would allow that.

Our government is allowing these people to walk all over us as if we're begging for help from them, even though the reality is that they came to us begging us to take this package so as their own banks wouldn't be held accountable for their sh!tty decisions with regard to ours.

I say "Fine. Either you give us a bailout which WON'T completely screw our country for the next several years, or we go ahead with our original 4 year plan, **** the bailout, let those rotten banks collapse as they should, and you can sort out the mess which your own banks have made".

Beggars can't be choosers here. Demanding that we accept help and then giving us completely unacceptable terms for that help makes no sense and is the height of arrogance.

Bob_Latchford

you would have to see the terms of the debt facility. Bailout is loaded term imo.

IMF/ECB are the lender of last resort. The credit lines are closed to the banks. first they went to Irish Central Bank, then to ECB, now IMF/ECB.

Its quite amazing that handful of banks in Ireland has burned a hole so big that ECB has needed help from IMF & EU

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/1126/1224284182197.html

Presumably Jean-Claude Trichet, the president of the ECB (pictured below), had become increasingly uncomfortable about the fact that a country with 1 per cent of the EU’s gross domestic product (GDP) had ended up with more than 20 per cent of the ECB’s emergency bank lending.

They need money, there is no where else willing to lend at 6.7%.

I cant see that they are bothered whether Ireland ruins itself, pulls out the euro, or burns the bondholders completely to be honest. We have run up to much debt in the ECB and they have said no.

I dont think they asked Ireland to take a "bailout" they realised before Ireland that Ireland would need a bailout. Which is very poor from the government but hardly surprising

EastTexas

Bob_Latchford wrote: »

you would have to see the terms of the debt facility. Bailout is loaded term imo.


Its quite amazing that handful of banks in Ireland has burned a hole so big that ECB has needed help from IMF & EU

Spain is burning a much larger hole as we speak and there aren’t enough euros printed to fill that one.

Cavehill Red

a bailout for billionaires, paid by us.

Where's the democracy here? 100,000 people marched against this today, and Donegal flatly rejected this current government, and you can bet the other two constituencies would too, yet these worms are seeking to rush this through without a referendum or even a Dail debate before the markets open on Monday.

If Biffo wants to pay off billionaires so badly, let's see him do so out of his own capacious pockets and pensions.

Bob_Latchford

Cavehill Red wrote: »

a bailout for billionaires, paid by us.

Where's the democracy here? 100,000 people marched against this today, and Donegal flatly rejected this current government, and you can bet the other two constituencies would too, yet these worms are seeking to rush this through without a referendum or even a Dail debate before the markets open on Monday.

If Biffo wants to pay off billionaires so badly, let's see him do so out of his own capacious pockets and pensions.

Burn the bank bondholders 100% then. I just dont think the IMF/EU/ECB cares one way or the other.

Inquitus

Cavehill Red wrote: »

a bailout for billionaires, paid by us.

Where's the democracy here? 100,000 people marched against this today, and Donegal flatly rejected this current government, and you can bet the other two constituencies would too, yet these worms are seeking to rush this through without a referendum or even a Dail debate before the markets open on Monday.

If Biffo wants to pay off billionaires so badly, let's see him do so out of his own capacious pockets and pensions.

It was 50k and the vast majority of them were Union people marching for their own self interest, not for the nations good.

Cavehill Red

Bob_Latchford wrote: »

Burn the bank bondholders 100% then. I just dont think the IMF/EU/ECB cares one way or the other.

We should burn them because they're not our responsibility. Cut the banks loose and let them go under. The reason we won't do that is because the IMF/EU/ECB very much care that we pay off the banks' debts.

If we choose not to, a domino effect will cascade across European banks, taking some of them down too, and possibly the euro with it once the vultures target Spain.

Anyway, to cheer us all up, here's a nice picture I found on the interwebz.

Festus

We know the answer:

The Irish Government is either too stupid to realise, too gutless to do something about it, or they've all been promised jobs in the IMF and ECB when it all goes tit's up next year because the are such good financial wizards as evidenced by the Celtic Tiger and the IMF will need their expertise to collapse other economies.

The only intelligence that operates in Irish politics is criminal intelligence.

FF formerly the IRA
FG formerly the IRA
Lab formerly the unions
SF formerly the PIRA

Ok, that may be a little harsh but there is no evidence to suggest that any Irish politician bar maybe a couple of independants who have anything other than self interest at heart.

We have the Euro and the European Union by the balls and we can demand whatever we want. What can they do to us that we haven't already done to ourselves?

EastTexas

In the US news Spain and Portugal appear to be way more the radar then Ireland
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ Frontpage headline


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/26/AR2010112601943.html?hpid=topnews

Wouldn’t it be a grave mistake for Ireland to take the bailout and stay with the Euro, if Spain can collapse the whole deck of cards/ Euro?

Bob_Latchford

Cavehill Red wrote: »

We should burn them because they're not our responsibility. Cut the banks loose and let them go under. The reason we won't do that is because the IMF/EU/ECB very much care that we pay off the banks' debts.

I have read reports suggesting IMF wants bondholders to absorb some of the losses. EU was neutral. Merkle has said in effect no free money for bondholders. The bond markets are selling bonds in Irish banks at a discount to face value. Bond prices have gone up in response to all this

Everything I can see points to bondholders taking a haircut. The FF government apparently are the ones resisting.

EU/ECB/IMF I would have imagined have run through scenarios about what they can and cant do, given any particular haircut imposed or agreed with the bondholders.

Will find out tomorrow maybe what the terms are hopefully

Festus

EastTexas wrote: »

Wouldn’t it be a grave mistake for Ireland to take the bailout and stay with the Euro, if Spain can collapse the whole deck of cards/ Euro?

More than grave. Disasterous. Even if the Euro collapses we would still have an agreement signed by elected politicians. It would be very difficult for any future government to renege on the deal.

Greece has a relatively cheap loan and could potentially survive. Ireland no, not at the rates offered.

It was 2% and 3% that got us into this mess. Why not get a bailout at 2% or 3%? At the moment the choice is between usury and penury.

Maybe the government can tell them they want to hold off to see what Belgium does.

Sorry, Portugal, or Spain. Belgium will be given immunity and have their debt forgiven.

EastTexas

Festus wrote: »

We know the answer:

The Irish Government is either too stupid to realise, too gutless to do something about it, or they've all been promised jobs in the IMF and ECB when it all goes tit's up next year because the are such good financial wizards as evidenced by the Celtic Tiger and the IMF will need their expertise to collapse other economies.

We have the Euro and the European Union by the balls and we can demand whatever we want. What can they do to us that we haven't already done to ourselves?

I agree,
With Spain casting it’s shadow over the Euro, Ireland may in the unique position here to turn the tables and regain its independence from the Eurocrats in Brussels, more or less just out to cover their own butts, their banks and make a buck where ever they can in the interim.

I think Brussels, France and Germany would be terrified if Ireland rejected the bailout and choose to go it’s own way.

Their schemes have made them way more dependent then they admit.
The Euro is their spacial needs child, not Ireland's.

Festus

someone somewhere is making an unimaginable profit from all this

Cavehill Red

Festus wrote: »

someone somewhere is making an unimaginable profit from all this

Hedgers against the euro. Precious metals holders.

But primarily, they aren't the people provoking this. The fault remains with the nature of the global banking system of fractional lending.

We need a new gold standard.

opinion guy

Anyone remember when everyone said "We can't afford to let the banks fail !!!!!"

Well....I guess in reality it turns out we couldn't afford NOT to let the banks fail.

EastTexas

Festus wrote: »

someone somewhere is making an unimaginable profit from all this

Has anybody ever wondered why it is only Germany posting record profits and trade surpluses whilst many others in the EU are suffering?
At whose expense are those profits?
Since 70% of German exports (many of them originally from China, Germany’s new best friend) are to other Eurozone nations and not subjected to a cent of custom’s fees under EU law.
Germany, the third largest weapons manufacturer and suppler in the world.
But very shy about using their own supply in the name of “peace”

Though Greece could not be accused of sound money management by any stretch of the imagination, but didn’t Germany take advantage of that and shoved product and arms sales down their throat until they chocked on it.
Largely financed by German banks... bailed out in the Greek bailout?

Inquitus

EastTexas wrote: »

Has anybody ever wondered why it is only Germany posting record profits and trade surpluses whilst many others in the EU are suffering?
At whose expense are those profits?
Since 70% of German exports (many of them originally from China, Germany’s new best friend) are to other Eurozone nations and not subjected to a cent of custom’s fees under EU law.
Germany, the third largest weapons manufacturer and suppler in the world.
But very shy about using their own supply in the name of “peace”

Though Greece could not be accused of sound money management by any stretch of the imagination, but didn’t Germany take advantage of that and shoved product and arms sales down their throat until they chocked on it.
Largely financed by German banks... bailed out in the Greek bailout?

Germany is doing well because they are fiscally prudent and run their nation in a responsible and sustainable manner. We however are not doing well because we run our nation like a Vegas gambler high on Coke.

kumate_champ07

Inquitus wrote: »

It was 50k and the vast majority of them were Union people marching for their own self interest, not for the nations good.

were you there?

EastTexas

Inquitus wrote: »

Germany is doing well because they are fiscally prudent and run their nation in a responsible and sustainable manner. We however are not doing well because we run our nation like a Vegas gambler high on Coke.

Germany’s banks and corporations are booming, but not the domestic economy at all.
Severe wage dumping, 1 euro the jobs.
Loan worker scams.
They only list about one third of their unemployed in the stats
You can be on full unemployment or 95% unemployment in Germany and not be listed in the stats through all kinds of bureaucratic redefinitions and parsing.
Employed does not mean getting paid.
2010 will mark a new record for bankruptcies.
Private and small business

Bob_Latchford

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

were you there?

I was there, Jack O'Connor got booed and heckled. It was hardly pro union even though they organised it.

Festus

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Hedgers against the euro.

short selling, naked or otherwise

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Precious metals holders.

not really a problem unless they expect Croag Patrick to go up for sale.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

But primarily, they aren't the people provoking this. The fault remains with the nature of the global banking system of fractional lending.

True. The opportunity was handed them on a plate

Cavehill Red wrote: »

We need a new gold standard.

True. Is it called fiat money because we have to fix\finance it again tomorrow?

(old joke - apologies)

thebman

If people want to know what the IMF think of the Euro, it is here:
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/survey/so/2010/NEW112110A.htm

I need of reform but not going anyway.