Retired teachers and principals supervising the state exams

Hillie45

Has the minister for education has given any directive to the state examinations commission regarding retired teachers and retired principals getting jobs as superintendants to the state exams (leaving and junior cert).

I read on the paper that she has given a directive to principals to hire unemployed teachers for substitute work before them etc. It was just a directive though, not legally binding or anything.

Has there will been any change to the way posts for superintendant to the state exams are given as at present the majority of posts are given based on seniority - i.e. based on the no. of years teaching experience you have. So retired teachers/principals are top of the queue, followed by teachers with plenty of years service.

A seperate small allocation (i think 10%) is allocated differently - spread between unemployed teachers and subsitute teachers who are working odd days and claiming unemployment benefit also for days not worked etc. But only a small number of places are available for such teachers.

So that leaves teachers with a few years service or the many teachers on contract for 11 or 12 hours or on substiute hours (e.g. maternity leave) on the last rung of the ladder for getting substitution as:

a) they will not get it based on seniority

b) they will not get it based on claiming unemployment benefit as they would not be eligible for benefit if contracted for work on 11 or 12 hours unless those hours were all worked in two or three days. This is unlikely due to the nature of teaching.

In my opinion more places should be made available to unemployed/substitute teachers and to teachers on contracts for part time hours (e.g. under 22 hours a week constracted teaching hours) and to teachers just teaching a few years (even if they are on full hours)
as all of the above earn less than more senior teachers.

Please do not give the argument that more senior teachers are more capable/experienced for the exam hall. It was a retired teacher who did not follow the superintendants instructions re: the procedures to be followed when the english paper had to be resat last year. I know that was unfortunate but it happened.

Just wondering if other people have views on this.

Thanks

RH149

I'd agree with you - the only instance where I think seniority should count for the exams is the Corrections. I think having experienced (even if retired) teachers correcting makes more sense than NQT/ unemployed/part time teachers who just haven't enough experience. But for the supervision ......I don't think it should be reserved for the senior members, though I don't think they should be exempt either. I just think it should be a level playing field- maybe a random lottery style selection system. With adequate training, any teachers could supervise so I don't think you should have to wait for years and years to get a chance to do it.

doc_17

Retired teachers shhould only be used if none else wants it - which won't be the case.

spurious

Hillie45 wrote: »

Has there will been any change to the way posts for superintendant to the state exams are given as at present the majority of posts are given based on seniority - i.e. based on the no. of years teaching experience you have. So retired teachers/principals are top of the queue, followed by teachers with plenty of years service.

Just wondering where you heard that this is how people are selected for superintendent posts?

Hillie45

Reply to RH149

Hi, yes that it fair enough to suggest a level playing field or a lottery type effect so that all teachers have the same chance of getting it.

Spurious - I just heard that information second hand from a substitute/umemployed teacher a few years ago, i think it was on literature he got from the state examinations commission too. The 10% could have gone up a bit as I heard of a few substitute teachers getting it this year but the majority who get it are older teachers still as far as I am aware. That leaves a big chunk of teachers still not having a fair chance of getting a position as the majority of places go to more senior/experienced teachers and retired teachers. Retired teachers would be top of the queue as they have the most experience usually.

I rang the state examinations commission before to ask why i was on the reserve panel and they told me they start allocating places to teachers with the highest no. of years teaching and work down the list so the last teacher offered a place could have had to have say 17 years teaching experience for example! (my friend rang them last year and they told her they were at 25 years experience! she has 3 years experience so was unlikely to be offered a place!) Apparently it was very hard to get it last year as a lot of teachers applied for it due to the recession.

That said I have heard of the odd teacher getting it in previous years who have only a few years experience. Pull has been mentioned.

RH149

Most of the teachers I know who do it every year are all pretty senior as in A post holders or long standing B posts (non VEC) but there are a few younger teachers with about 10/12 yrs experience who got in a few years ago from the reserve panel, last minute and then as a result have got it every year since. I think it's a matter of being lucky enough to get your foot in the door. Other than that it seems to be that you have to wait for years which isn't fair imo.

evolving_doors

What a crock of ****

If you're retired you're retired...why do they still get the ticket..share the love mannn..

It has been mentioned in another thread that possibly the reason for choosing the old-folkies is cos they wont have the propensity to strike..unlike proper 'teaching' teachers..

This system is a crock.. have been applying for superintending for the last 5 years...just for the laugh..see all the old folks hobbling into our school to supervise every june..

Give up the ghost lads if you're retired you're retired..

It's funny how much concession the 'grey' vote gets.. Just look at FF/ Independent (JHR, NoelO'Flynn) jumping ship saying they won't vote for the budget if they hit OAP's..IMO, most OAP's esp ex-public service have never had it so good these days..

lets see them fighting for NQT rights for a change. If any NQT is lucky enough to get any type of job these days they'll have to hang on for 4 years for a contract of indefinite duration .....what the hell is this about... I'll be indefinite till I die slumped over the OHP..

It'd make a hell of a lot more sense if they hired from the newbies up,, it stands to reason the more senior you are in teaching the less you need the extra few bob in the summer..

Same as correcting exams.. if a teacher is qualified, then what the hell does that have to do with years experience needed in order to correct, it's not rocket science..

Rosita

Armelodie wrote: »

Same as correcting exams.. if a teacher is qualified, then what the hell does that have to do with years experience needed in order to correct, it's not rocket science..

To be fair it is hard to see why lack of experience is used as a blocker of people looking to correct exams considering that there are conferences etc organised to discuss the marking schemes which presumably are clear enough and subject to checking procedures. If someone is considered 'experienced' enough to teach exam classes then it is hard to see why they are not experienced enough to correct exam papers! Citing experience as essential is a sure sign they are over-subscribed, they'd get over it otherwise.

evolving_doors

Rosita wrote: »

To be fair it is hard to see why lack of experience is used as a blocker of people looking to correct exams considering that there are conferences etc organised to discuss the marking schemes which presumably are clear enough and subject to checking procedures. If someone is considered 'experienced' enough to teach exam classes then it is hard to see why they are not experienced enough to correct exam papers! Citing experience as essential is a sure sign they are over-subscribed, they'd get over it otherwise.

Too true Rosita..
the D.ED./SEC either have confidence in ALL their teachers or they don't, has the teaching council not been working so hard to ensure our professionalism and integrity is maintained no matter what rung of the ladder we're on..

easy solution..

Start with NQT's and work up...

maybe make curriculum analysis a bigger part of the HDip within the students special methods subject...
our special methods tutor during the HDip made damm sure we knew exactly the rationale behind of the requirements of curriculum, ( he used to be a chief examiner so it was really interesting to hear about what goes in to the design of a curriculum/syllabus)

maynooth_rules

What a crock of ****

If you're retired you're retired...

Unfortunatly this is the bloody country that we live in. This lovely country that retired teachers on pensions are allowed back in the classroom to do subbing and earn even more money while NQTs are on the dole. The Governments response is to send letters to schools telling them not to do it:rolleyes:

implausible

RH149 wrote: »

Most of the teachers I know who do it every year are all pretty senior as in A post holders or long standing B posts

Other than that it seems to be that you have to wait for years which isn't fair

Damn right, it isn't fair! I've applied every year and I'm teaching 10 years. I got it once (could do it through Irish at last-minute notice), but not since. Because I moved job, I'm back down the list again. Every year I ring the SEC and last year they told me the list started at ten years' experience, God help any NQTs looking for it.

I wonder if last year's exam boo-boo would have occurred if a younger teacher had been supervising the exams:rolleyes:

Rosita wrote: »

To be fair it is hard to see why lack of experience is used as a blocker of people looking to correct exams
<snip>
Citing experience as essential is a sure sign they are over-subscribed, they'd get over it otherwise.

Of course it's a way of deciding who gets to mark and it makes perfect sense - the longer you've been teaching the better able you are to recognise types of questions and good answers. I can only speak for my own subject (English), but as you go up the levels, experience is more and more valuable.

It's funny, isn't it, that the job which really requires no experience is impossible to get without it and the job which does need the experience has been farmed out in the past to undergraduates and non-teachers:rolleyes:

rainbowtrout

deemark wrote: »

Damn right, it isn't fair! I've applied every year and I'm teaching 10 years. I got it once (could do it through Irish at last-minute notice), but not since. Because I moved job, I'm back down the list again. Every year I ring the SEC and last year they told me the list started at ten years' experience, God help any NQTs looking for it.

I wonder if last year's exam boo-boo would have occurred if a younger teacher had been supervising the exams:rolleyes:



Of course it's a way of deciding who gets to mark and it makes perfect sense - the longer you've been teaching the better able you are to recognise types of questions and good answers. I can only speak for my own subject (English), but as you go up the levels, experience is more and more valuable.

It's funny, isn't it, that the job which really requires no experience is impossible to get without it and the job which does need the experience has been farmed out in the past to undergraduates and non-teachers:rolleyes:

Agree with all of that. I'm teaching 10 years and have applied for supervision and inevitably have got the letter every year saying 'you are on the panel for any positions which may arise' which means 'you haven't a hope in hell of getting it as usual'

I do think correctors need experience. All teachers are professionals but do set class work, homework and tests in their own way. Each has different expectations as to what they will and won't accept and that can vary from class to class even with one teacher.

Even at the correction conference where answers are straightforward (science, maths) teachers will argue 'I would accept that from my students, it's obvious what the student was trying to say' and another teacher will say 'No way would I accept that answer' so I think it's good for teachers to start off on JC papers where there is less room for error and less is expected of students, and a lot of papers are fill in the blanks type exams where there is only one or two answers, rather than at LC level where more interpretation of answers may be required.

spurious

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Agree with all of that. I'm teaching 10 years and have applied for supervision and inevitably have got the letter every year saying 'you are on the panel for any positions which may arise' which means 'you haven't a hope in hell of getting it as usual'

Strange. I wonder is it because there are too many applying from your area?
I have colleagues with much less service than that who have been appointed as superintendents. Once you're in, it certainly appears that as long as you haven't had an 'incident' the gig is yours for as long as you want. Similarly with correcting, even if you haven't done it in years.

implausible

spurious wrote: »

Strange. I wonder is it because there are too many applying from your area?
I have colleagues with much less service than that who have been appointed as superintendents. Once you're in, it certainly appears that as long as you haven't had an 'incident' the gig is yours for as long as you want. Similarly with correcting, even if you haven't done it in years.

The last time I rang them, they told me that the list was starting at ten years, so it's obviously different for different counties/areas.

There is, however, no need for retired teachers to be doing it. There is more than enough demand for this work.

rainbowtrout

spurious wrote: »

Strange. I wonder is it because there are too many applying from your area?
I have colleagues with much less service than that who have been appointed as superintendents. Once you're in, it certainly appears that as long as you haven't had an 'incident' the gig is yours for as long as you want. Similarly with correcting, even if you haven't done it in years.

All the teachers that have retired from my school in the last 10 years do it, so you may be right. It's hardly worth applying at this stage.

MathsManiac

A timely piece of news from the Oireachtas:

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2010-12-01.1123.0

So, according to the Minister, "Priority is given first to recruitment of unemployed and substitute teachers, before drawing on the wider pool of applicants."

freckly

MathsManiac wrote: »

A timely piece of news from the Oireachtas:

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2010-12-01.1123.0

So, according to the Minister, "Priority is given first to recruitment of unemployed and substitute teachers, before drawing on the wider pool of applicants."

In that case I bagsy Offaly... think of the travel expenses! Oh and Ill correct LC HL of course:D

evolving_doors

MathsManiac wrote: »

A timely piece of news from the Oireachtas:

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2010-12-01.1123.0

So, according to the Minister, "Priority is given first to recruitment of unemployed and substitute teachers, before drawing on the wider pool of applicants."

That woman hasn't a clue.. we're all goosed now

evolving_doors

freckly wrote: »

In that case I bagsy Offaly... think of the travel expenses! Oh and Ill correct LC HL of course:D

I Bags Dublin (with a holiday home in Cork as my primary residence)

implausible

Armelodie wrote: »

That woman hasn't a clue.. we're all goosed now

She hasn't a clue? Hang on, does Ruairi Quinn want to give superintending to non-teachers?:eek:

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)

Question 93: To ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills the arrangements in place to ensure posts as supervisors for the State examinations are open to suitably qualified members of the public; if she will instruct the State Examinations Commission to drop the requirement that all supervisors must be teachers; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [45483/10]

delta_bravo

On the application form there is a section to fill out your status and "non teacher" is one of them. If you think about it, the job doesn't require any teaching experience so anyone could do it.

evolving_doors

deemark wrote: »

She hasn't a clue? Hang on, does Ruairi Quinn want to give superintending to non-teachers?:eek:

Hmm don't forget Ruairi Quinn isn't the Minister, he's just trying to get her to justify NOT giving someone a job.. It'd be interesting to see what he'd do in her position,, he's lost the teacher vote from me in my books(if he was in my constituency that is!!)