Those awkward moments......gah!

whatdoicare

I have always been a non believer - I stopped going to mass the weekend after my confirmation. My Mother, in the delusional belief that I would go of my own free will and in a bid to prove my (also non believer) Father wrong, gave me the choice and of course I chose not to go, to my Mothers horror.

Now, she never pushed it because she's a proud woman and my Dad had been proven right for once in his life. This suited me grand and I carried on with life happy out only going for weddings and such.

That is, until the last two to three years......I have no idea what changed in this time but all of a sudden my Mother has felt this intense need to drop the "God" bomb on me in every conversation. She claims she no longer believes in mass after the child scandals (she never went anyway) and now only believes in Angels or some nonsense.

When she started adding Angels to every conversation or Gods will or whatever, I would not acknowledge she said anything, go quiet and respectfully look away. Then when she changed the subject I would enthusiastically talk about that instead. I hoped this would give her a hint that I wasn't going along with the train of thought and that I wasn't too keen to continue the conversation about religion.

Then, she started buying me Angel cards, books ("Angels in her hair"?), card reading appointments, Angel statues, Rosary beads etc etc and I would thank her (not with glee - a bland respectful "Thanks" mostly with a puzzled look) and then leave them on the counter when I left to go home. I never took these things home with me.

Now, for the question, what is my next step? It's getting increasingly awkward and embarrassing for me. I'm afraid I'm going to lose my temper with her and I don't want that. How do I get her to stop? What do I say?? I tried saying that I don't believe but I respect that she does. It's like she didn't hear me! It's becoming upsetting for me now.

I also want to start having babies soon (newly married, no church or holy guy involved) and I want this situation resolved as I assume it's only going to get worse once babies start getting older and she realises there's going to be no baptismal....



TL;DR Mother driving me mad with God bombs! Make it stop!

DOC09UNAM

whatdoicare wrote: »

I have always been a non believer - I stopped going to mass the weekend after my confirmation. My Mother, in the delusional belief that I would go of my own free will and in a bid to prove my (also non believer) Father wrong, gave me the choice and of course I chose not to go, to my Mothers horror.

Now, she never pushed it because she's a proud woman and my Dad had been proven right for once in his life. This suited me grand and I carried on with life happy out only going for weddings and such.

That is, until the last two to three years......I have no idea what changed in this time but all of a sudden my Mother has felt this intense need to drop the "God" bomb on me in every conversation. She claims she no longer believes in mass after the child scandals (she never went anyway) and now only believes in Angels or some nonsense.

When she started adding Angels to every conversation or Gods will or whatever, I would not acknowledge she said anything, go quiet and respectfully look away. Then when she changed the subject I would enthusiastically talk about that instead. I hoped this would give her a hint that I wasn't going along with the train of thought and that I wasn't too keen to continue the conversation about religion.

Then, she started buying me Angel cards, books ("Angels in her hair"?), card reading appointments, Angel statues, Rosary beads etc etc and I would thank her (not with glee - a bland respectful "Thanks" mostly with a puzzled look) and then leave them on the counter when I left to go home. I never took these things home with me.

Now, for the question, what is my next step? It's getting increasingly awkward and embarrassing for me. I'm afraid I'm going to lose my temper with her and I don't want that. How do I get her to stop? What do I say?? I tried saying that I don't believe but I respect that she does. It's like she didn't hear me! It's becoming upsetting for me now.

I also want to start having babies soon (newly married, no church or holy guy involved) and I want this situation resolved as I assume it's only going to get worse once babies start getting older and she realises there's going to be no baptismal....



TL;DR Mother driving me mad with God bombs! Make it stop!

Explain it to your mother that you don't believe, and you never will.

I have had this conversation with my mother before, and she was very understanding about it.

whatdoicare

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

Explain it to your mother that you don't believe, and you never will.

I have had this conversation with my mother before, and she was very understanding about it.

Indeed I did have this conversation but it fell on deaf ears. (I said this above ^^^)

robindch

whatdoicare wrote: »

I have no idea what changed in this time but all of a sudden my Mother has felt this intense need to drop the "God" bomb on me in every conversation.

Same happened in my extended family some years ago. It's only got worse with time and was compounded by mild alcoholism.

whatdoicare wrote: »

Then when she changed the subject I would enthusiastically talk about that instead. I hoped this would give her a hint that I wasn't going along with the train of thought and that I wasn't too keen to continue the conversation about religion.

Nice try, but pointless.

whatdoicare wrote: »

Now, for the question, what is my next step? It's getting increasingly awkward and embarrassing for me.

If the experience of my own extended family is anything to go by (and I've seen people in other families go through exactly the same thing), then all I can say is get used to it. I realize that's not helping much, but once religion bites people (women preferentially, in my experience), it can bite them hard. Particularly, in my experience, if they have alcohol problems, or low levels of education and attainment, low levels of self-esteem and empathy.

whatdoicare wrote: »

How do I get her to stop?

You can't.

whatdoicare wrote: »

What do I say?? I tried saying that I don't believe but I respect that she does. It's like she didn't hear me!

Been there. Generally, most of my family just leaves this elderly lady gas on as long as she wants and when she finishes a rant about whatever, just changes the conversation to something else. Doesn't happen all the time of course, but it's the only strategy that reliably avoids the kind of standing-up-and-storming-out-of-the-room-in-tears that still happens fairly regularly.

whatdoicare wrote: »

I also want to start having babies soon (newly married, no church or holy guy involved) and I want this situation resolved as I assume it's only going to get worse once babies start getting older and she realises there's going to be no baptismal.

Your mum may not know, but people can be baptized even if they're not present at the ceremony. My brother + sisters are all fairly sure that our elderly relative has gone through some kind of weird voodoo ceremony where our kids are baptized in absentia. Try mentioning this and seeing what happens -- might keep her out of your hair.

On the plus side, of course, my generation are never short of anything to talk about over dinner and our informal running tab of her nastiest personal insults ("You don't deserve to be a father and you'll do an appalling job") does help to relieve the irritation when they're being delivered

Welcome to extreme religion, btw!

Galvasean

Robin, I'm sure you're a lovely father. Teaching your kids about volcanoes.

liamw

I have the opposite problem. My Mum won't talk about mass or religion any more with me for fear I start asking her difficult questions How can I solve this?

Gregor Samsa

liamw wrote: »

I have the opposite problem. My Mum won't talk about mass or religion any more with me for fear I start asking her difficult questions How can I solve this?

Swap mums with the OP.

Canis Lupus

OT but I've discovered today that my sister in law believes her grandads spirit inhabits a robin and he visits her everyday. She believes this because a psychic told her.

That's more embarrassing I think.

MrPudding

Canis Lupus wrote: »

OT but I've discovered today that my sister in law believes her grandads spirit inhabits a robin and he visits her everyday. She believes this because a psychic told her.

That's more embarrassing I think.

That is pretty embarrassing. If we are in the confession zone outing our embarrassing relatives I have two in particular.

The first is my mum. I know there is no way for her to see sense, she considers herself to be RC, but she clearly isn't. I have has a few conversations with her about CoE, which would be a much closer fit, but she is having none of it. Despite the fact she has no truck with transubstantiation, has no problem with sex before marriage, believes people should be able to use contraception and, inter alia, thinks the pope is a cnut, she reckons she is a good catholic.

My sister is into those spiritualist churches and believes in angels and all the associated crap that brings. Perhaps I was adopted...?

MrP

Beruthiel

whatdoicare wrote: »

Then, she started buying me Angel cards, books ("Angels in her hair"?), card reading appointments, Angel statues, Rosary beads etc etc and I would thank her (not with glee - a bland respectful "Thanks" mostly with a puzzled look) and then leave them on the counter when I left to go home. I never took these things home with me.

The fact that she keeps giving you stuff you never take home, yet she still keeps giving them to you, means she believes she has to keep trying. Eventually, if she doesn't give up, you might come around and see the light.

Thankfully, my parents rarely bring up religion. I think they're actually afraid to know what I really think on the subject and would rather remain in ignorance. That way they can pretend to themselves that I must have some sort of belief system.

I'm afraid I'm going to lose my temper with her and I don't want that. How do I get her to stop?

Why not just tell her that?
"Please stop pushing your religion on me, it's becoming frustrating and I'm afraid I'll loose my temper with you if it continues and I'd rather that didn't happen."

robindch

Beruthiel wrote: »

"Please stop pushing your religion on me, it's becoming frustrating and I'm afraid I'll loose my temper with you if it continues and I'd rather that didn't happen."

Oh, the innocence -- clearly you are under Santa's influence and need to be pushed even more!

whatdoicare

robindch wrote: »

Your mum may not know, but people can be baptized even if they're not present at the ceremony. My brother + sisters are all fairly sure that our elderly relative has gone through some kind of weird voodoo ceremony where our kids are baptized in absentia. Try mentioning this and seeing what happens -- might keep her out of your hair.


Welcome to extreme religion, btw!

Oh ho no, no way am I telling my mam that she can baptise any kiddies without us knowing. I did not know that could happen. I wish I didn't now as I'm sure she already knows about it. EEeep!

whatdoicare

[QUOTE=Beruthiel;69263737


Why not just tell her that?
"Please stop pushing your religion on me, it's becoming frustrating and I'm afraid I'll loose my temper with you if it continues and I'd rather that didn't happen."[/QUOTE]
I've had this conversation already with her on many occassions (mostly around my wedding) - not sinking in at all. She's just not getting it!

magicbastarder

tell her that if she can prove to you that angels exist, you'll believe in them. and that you'll only take one making you a cup of tea as proof.

keppler

whatdoicare wrote: »

Oh ho no, no way am I telling my mam that she can baptise any kiddies without us knowing. I did not know that could happen. I wish I didn't now as I'm sure she already knows about it. EEeep!

As far as I know for any baptism to be legit in the RCC water must be poured over the childs head. For gods sake dont leave your future children alone in a kitchen, bathroom, lake, reservoir, or river bank otherwise she might do a Ned Flander's on ya.

iguana

I'm just curious but how bad exactly would it be if you did lose your temper with her? I know it's not nice and nobody ever wants it but there are times that an argument is necessary in order to move forward. I read a study many years back that found that parent/adult-child relationships that have experienced strong arguments as the child reached adulthood tend to be stronger and formed on mutual respect. This is because the parent/dependant-child relationship needs to be broken apart so that the foundations of an adult/adult friendship are laid. It's why teenagers are such self-righteous, arrogant and stubborn little pricks so much of the time.

It could be crap but I know I fought like crazy with my parents through my late teens and early twenties and we've ended up with a fantastic friendship. Apart from my husband, my mother is by far and away my very best friend. She fully respects that I'm a person in my own right and never, ever lays pressure on me to conform to her ideals and I respect her opinions and that it's ok for her to occasionally be wrong about some things.

robindch

keppler wrote: »

As far as I know for any baptism to be legit in the RCC water must be poured over the childs head.

Not completely true, at least about the head bit anyway. Water is involved though, especially if it involves some kind of hydraulic "dipping" action. And it can be done by absolutely anybody, including atheists:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm#V

BTW, the formal catechism of the Vatican is an engagingly weird document -- arrogant, nonsensical, pedantic, self-absorbed to a point way beyond autism, it's unforgettably awful stuff.

keppler

robindch wrote: »

Not completely true, at least about the head bit anyway. Water is involved though, especially if it involves some kind of hydraulic "dipping" action. And it can be done by absolutely anybody, including atheists:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm#V

BTW, the formal catechism of the Vatican is an engagingly weird document -- arrogant, nonsensical, pedantic, self-absorbed to a point way beyond autism, it's unforgettably awful stuff.

So its 'triple pour' or 'triple immersion'. In fairness though I cant imagine anyone immersing an infant lol.
I always knew the act could be done by anyone however, for some reason I'm under the impression that this can only be done if the childs life is in danger. If the child then lives the sacrament must then be redone by an ordained clergyman?
All I seem to be able to find about this in the link is

1284 In case of necessity, any person can baptize provided that he have the intention of doing that which the Church does and provided that he pours water on the candidate's head while saying: "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

Does 'necessity' imply its still ok even if against the will of parents and/or the childs life is not in danger?

Goduznt Xzst

whatdoicare wrote: »

Then, she started buying me Angel cards, books ("Angels in her hair"?), card reading appointments, Angel statues, Rosary beads etc etc and I would thank her (not with glee - a bland respectful "Thanks" mostly with a puzzled look) and then leave them on the counter when I left to go home. I never took these things home with me.

As others have said, stop being so submissive and assume the role of an adult. If you want your parents to treat you like an equal, then act like you are their equal.

I reached a tipping point regarding this. I could no longer have a peaceful day out with my parents without it deterioting into a constant barage of nags to get me to relinguish my apostate ways. So every time it got brought up, I spoke up. Never angered, just explaining why I had rejected the particular belief they wanted me to reaccept as fact.

This went on for months, with sometimes a few days in between where we wouldn't speak to each other, usually as my mother left in tears (not due to me being agressive, just more the fact she believed the demons where filling my mind with these satanic beliefs). But each time I calmly reasoned my opinion, and asked them to use the PC I had bought them to research my points for themselves on the internet, and come back to me with any further questions.

After several of these arguments the tables had actually turned. I no longer had to try and reason against the plethora of scriptures they used to back up their beliefs, but rather they now had a mounting list of topics to research on the internet to continue the argument with me.

I knew they wouldn't. It eventually reached a critical mass where they could no longer bring up the argument any more as I would ask them what they had found out about the last point I had made, which they had no new information on.

This was a few years ago and I can't say we've had a religious discussion since. Similar to Iguana, my relationship with my parents is actually the best it's ever been and I would view them as close friends now rather than parents. Myself and my OH have gone on 2 week long Holidays with them without incident. We are already planning another holiday together next Summer.

robindch

keppler wrote: »

I always knew the act could be done by anyone however, for some reason I'm under the impression that this can only be done if the childs life is in danger. [...] Does 'necessity' imply its still ok even if against the will of parents and/or the childs life is not in danger?

As in my case, the wishes of the parents are irrelevant, since they are clearly under the influence of one demon or another.

I imagine such baptisms are fairly rare these days in mainstream christianity anyway, but back in the 19th century, things weren't quite so tidy. Here's an interesting, if sad, piece of history related to what I suppose you could call "stolen baptisms":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara

kylith

I agree with the others, you need to tell your parents that you don't share their beliefs, and that's the end of it. It might lead to a row, but the row will clear the air. If you don't want to get married in a church or have your children baptised then don't, explain that you think it'd be hypocritical to do something that you don't believe in.

My mother tried to guilt me into going to mass by using my nieces 'Will you come to mass with us Auntie Kylith? Why won't you come to mass?', so I had a quiet word with her and said that I didn't want to have an arguement, but she is never, ever to ask me or try to guilt me in to going to mass ever again. She moans sometimes about "what would I do if you died?" but now she doesn't talk about it at all.

Whenever I visit she still wakes me up at Stupid O' Clock on Sunday, in her mass clothes, rolling her eyes and sighing theatrically. She brings a cuppa though, so I can live with it.

whatdoicare

I did NOT get married in a church, I DON'T go to mass, I HAVE told her to stop!
I have yelled at her to stop, I have begged and pleaded with her to stop. I am now trying to ignore it!

Arguing with her achieves nothing, nothing at all. She just rewinds the tape and goes again!

I have argued everything I could think of, shown her loop holes and inconsistencies in the bible, left the crap she gets me in her house, shown her how similar Christianity is to other religions, mapped out the history of Religion in Ireland and the world- I could go on and on and on and on... I fought this for years and thought not getting married in a church would have hit the point home.

I'm just tired of it now. She's not listening.


To whoever called me submissive - Not cool, not helpful - just insulting. I'm a very direct willful person and am not a blubbering idiot - if I was submissive I'd be just going along with all of her crap (like the rest of my family) and life would be easy as pie. I'd even get a grand day out at the baptism and easy access to schools but I can't do that, it's not how my mind works.

kylith

Have you tried saying that you don't want to talk about religion and leaving the room every time she starts?

whatdoicare

kylith wrote: »

Have you tried saying that you don't want to talk about religion and leaving the room every time she starts?

Hmmmm....I never thought of that....worth a try.

keppler

robindch wrote: »

As in my case, the wishes of the parents are irrelevant, since they are clearly under the influence of one demon or another.

I imagine such baptisms are fairly rare these days in mainstream christianity anyway, but back in the 19th century, things weren't quite so tidy. Here's an interesting, if sad, piece of history related to what I suppose you could call "stolen baptisms":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara

hmm is this the story from 'The God Delusion' ? I think ive read it before somewhere. yeah pretty sad alright.

keppler

whatdoicare wrote: »

I'm just tired of it now. She's not listening.


To whoever called me submissive - Not cool, not helpful - just insulting. I'm a very direct willful person and am not a blubbering idiot - if I was submissive I'd be just going along with all of her crap (like the rest of my family) and life would be easy as pie. I'd even get a grand day out at the baptism and easy access to schools but I can't do that, it's not how my mind works.

I dont think anyone here really thinks you're a blubbering idiot . At least not in the sense that you can't construct a convincing argument with your mum lol. from what you've outlined in the thread so far I certainly dont think you are.

Your mother sounds like a very determined woman (I have the opposite problem in that my father is the thorn in my side). You mentioned that your siblings think along the same lines as you. Have you tried talking to them about this? Could you maybe convince some of them to ally to you when you're having another fight with your mum (even without them having to out their own atheist beliefs).

Maybe the decision to not baptize your children when the time comes could be just what it takes to show your mum that you're even more determined than she is, no?

Goduznt Xzst

whatdoicare wrote: »

I'm a very direct willful person and am not a blubbering idiot - if I was submissive I'd be just going along with all of her crap.

The above statement is contrary to what you originally said:

whatdoicare wrote: »

Then, she started buying me Angel cards, books ("Angels in her hair"?), card reading appointments, Angel statues, Rosary beads etc etc and I would thank her (not with glee - a bland respectful "Thanks" mostly with a puzzled look) and then leave them on the counter when I left to go home. I never took these things home with me.

I'm sorry but that reads as submissive. Repeatedly accepting and saying "thanks" for gifts you detest does not sound like the actions of a "direct willful person". My parents would never give me a toy angel because I would not put out my hand to receive it, or say thanks for it.

You seem to be placating your mother to spare her feelings, at least in this regard.

Anyway, I don't know you, I'm merely going on what you've written. Some parents will never change, regardless of how much you fight against them. In their minds, not being religious is akin to taking hard drugs. They think you are destroying your chances of a life in heaven and will do anything to make sure that you will be there with them.

vibe666

kylith wrote: »

Have you tried saying that you don't want to talk about religion and leaving the room every time she starts?

i was reading through the thread and had planned on saying the same thing but you beat me to it.

any time she starts, just get up and leave. don't even say anything to her (maybe just a sigh) and she'll get the point sooner or later that if she keeps it up you'll keep walking out.

or, you could just make a point of only visiting her at night from now on and get some white face makeup, red contact lenses and false vampire teeth and any time she mentions anything religious just hiss at her, cover your face and back away until she stops.

kylith

vibe666 wrote: »

or, you could just make a point of only visiting her at night from now on and get some white face makeup, red contact lenses and false vampire teeth and any time she mentions anything religious just hiss at her, cover your face and back away until she stops.

Oh, that sounds like much more fun that what I said! Do that OP!

fisgon

whatdoicare wrote: »

I have argued everything I could think of, shown her loop holes and inconsistencies in the bible, left the crap she gets me in her house, shown her how similar Christianity is to other religions, mapped out the history of Religion in Ireland and the world- I could go on and on and on and on... I fought this for years and thought not getting married in a church would have hit the point home.

I'm just tired of it now. She's not listening.
.

You have my sympathies. I can't identify with it at all though, if anything, me and my unbeliever siblings have turned our mother away from any element of religion she had. Have a loopy aunt who keeps sending me 'miraculous medals', but that's about the height of it.

As for your mother, it sounds like she is ruining any chance that you two have of having a good relationship. She is doing this, clearly, not you. Maybe she needs to hear this, that she is spoiling her relationship with her child, a relationship that you value. Guilt her, as she is trying to guilt you. The Irish mammy, as well as positive things, is good at claiming victimhood, at manipulation, at guilt, and it's often easy to give in to this, to bow before the fact that she gave birth to you and brought you up. But you have to draw a line in the sand at some stage, or else stop visiting as often, make it clear that she has made it impossible for you to do so. It sounds like something drastic is in order.