Winter Grit/Salt Stocks

mike65

Anyone know what the plan for this winter is? All indicators point to another cold winter and prolonged periods of ice is a certainty.

Pauleta

I noticed some on the road the yesterday. Im sure after last year they will have more but it looks like this winter could be worse than last.

Victor

The NRA did a centralised purchase earlier in the year.

Irish Rail currently distributing their own supplies to stations.

Capt'n Midnight

If only there was a salt mine on our Island...

Rackstar

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

If only there was a salt mine on our Island...

http://www.irishsaltmining.com/home.htm

January

Rackstar wrote: »

http://www.irishsaltmining.com/home.htm

I actually think he was being sarcastic

Stonewolf

If only county councils used a reasonable policy of plowing and gritting instead of reaching for the salt at the slightest cold snap.

Salt is very bad for vehicles.

delta_bravo

Stonewolf wrote: »

If only county councils used a reasonable policy of plowing and gritting instead of reaching for the salt at the slightest cold snap.

Salt is very bad for vehicles.

As fas as I know you need a good bit of snow to plough it. You cant plough 1-2cm.

Stonewolf

Properly gritted such a small amount of snow isn't a huge problem, assuming people don't drive like morons.

Salt should be reserved for black spots.

parsi

Stonewolf wrote: »

Properly gritted such a small amount of snow isn't a huge problem, assuming people don't drive like morons.

Big proviso there.

People want to be able to drive the same way in snow, rain , darkness as they do on a gorgeous dry day. The idea of adjusting for conditions is anathema to a lot of people.

Stonewolf

There are plenty of other parts of the world where they get far more snow for far longer and with much colder temperatures. People there don't seem to have a problem adjusting to winter driving, Irish people are not special unique flowers.

foggy_lad

Irish people become real special cases whenever it rains or snows, even when the sun is shining it can get in their eyes and they need the nanny state to protect them and the innocent when they the responsible drivers turn into morons.

Losty Dublin

Stonewolf wrote: »

If only county councils used a reasonable policy of plowing and gritting instead of reaching for the salt at the slightest cold snap.

Salt is very bad for vehicles.

Crashing your car due to iced up roads is far worse;)

Bullseye1

I can tell you that there is inadequate or no gritting on the main street and main road in Arklow. God knows what the N11 is like. Why do businesses pay rates (lots of cancellations in local hotel) if the LA are not out helping business by keeping roads clear.

mickydoomsux

foggy_lad wrote: »

Irish people become real special cases whenever it rains or snows, even when the sun is shining it can get in their eyes and they need the nanny state to protect them and the innocent when they the responsible drivers turn into morons.

I pay €450 road-tax a year. I expect the roads to be salted/gritted during bad weather. They haven't bothered doing them since last week here. There's your nanny state.

I won't be going to work today and possibly tomorrow as a result :mad:

foggy_lad

mickydoomsux wrote: »

I pay €450 road-tax a year. I expect the roads to be salted/gritted during bad weather. They haven't bothered doing them since last week here. There's your nanny state.

I won't be going to work today and possibly tomorrow as a result :mad:

Perhaps a smaller engned car would lighten the road tax burden for you? and it would also be more economical and better for the environment.

Then you could drive a bit slower in poor conditions and remember there are really bad drivers out there who dont have the competence or indeed the confidence to drive in snow and icy conditions!

Remember also that narrow wheels like were on Volkswagen beetles are much more beneficial in snow/slush than big balloon tyres on a Range Rover/Chelsea tractors

Ado75

Moan Moan Moan. Typicle whingeing about natural events we can do little about. Even If every road was gritted it would still be dangerous.

BBC traffic reports are telling UK drivers that only 20% of roads in the UK are ever gritted and to stick to major routes and even then they are dangerous when gritted.

I've driven 20km to work this morning. Most of the gritted roads were poor at best. Do I blame the NRA or the gritting crews? No. I blame the snow and the fact it was - 7.

Drive slowly and carefully - simple.

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

Perhaps a smaller engned car would lighten the road tax burden for you? and it would also be more economical and better for the environment.

If he happens to have a diesel engined car it's more likely to have a larger engine.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Remember also that narrow wheels like were on Volkswagen beetles are much more beneficial in snow/slush than big balloon tyres on a Range Rover/Chelsea tractors

If you are driving over snow all the time and if you have proper snow tyres, then yes that's correct. However, nobody drives over snow 24 7 so for ice, wet, dry, slush and other normal road conditions, snow tyres are not far useless and wide tyres are better as a whole.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

If he happens to have a diesel engined car it's more likely to have a larger engine.



If you are driving over snow all the time and if you have proper snow tyres, then yes that's correct. However, nobody drives over snow 24 7 so for ice, wet, dry, slush and other normal road conditions, snow tyres are not far useless and wide tyres are better as a whole.

You don't need snow Tyres to get the benefits of narrow Tyres over thicker Tyres. And for a diesel car the road tax is lower than similar sized petrol cars afaik

Bullseye1

Ado75 wrote: »

Moan Moan Moan. Typicle whingeing about natural events we can do little about. Even If every road was gritted it would still be dangerous.

BBC traffic reports are telling UK drivers that only 20% of roads in the UK are ever gritted and to stick to major routes and even then they are dangerous when gritted.

I've driven 20km to work this morning. Most of the gritted roads were poor at best. Do I blame the NRA or the gritting crews? No. I blame the snow and the fact it was - 7.

Drive slowly and carefully - simple.

Tell that to the local businesses losing money as a result of inaction by their local authorities. They pay rates for a reason. This is not moan moan moan this is people fighting for their jobs and business.

Dowdy20

Ado75 wrote: »

Moan Moan Moan. Typicle whingeing about natural events we can do little about. Even If every road was gritted it would still be dangerous.

BBC traffic reports are telling UK drivers that only 20% of roads in the UK are ever gritted and to stick to major routes and even then they are dangerous when gritted.

I've driven 20km to work this morning. Most of the gritted roads were poor at best. Do I blame the NRA or the gritting crews? No. I blame the snow and the fact it was - 7.

Drive slowly and carefully - simple.

nail on the head..

same as last year and every winter complain complain complain.

just drive to suit the conditions and use your brains when driving on ice and snow and everything will be fine.

also i think more people should invest in winter tyres in this country id say the amount of cars out there now on normal tyres and bald tyres is crazy. and these people expect to be able to drive normally on ice with these??

wise up stop the moaning pull your weight and make it safer to drive in these conditions. be assertive and sort the problem.

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

You don't need snow Tyres to get the benefits of narrow Tyres over thicker Tyres. And for a diesel car the road tax is lower than similar sized petrol cars afaik

That is only true when you are driving over snow all the time which we don't here in Ireland. Even then, you need a specific winter tyre to gain any reasonable safety advantage over conventional tyres.

As to car tax, it's based either on engine size unless you car was bought from July 2008 in which case it's based on CO2 emissions. Fuel type does not come into it at all; I'd like to know where you are taxing your car as it appears that you don't know what you are talking about here.

Capt'n Midnight

Ado75 wrote: »

Moan Moan Moan. Typicle whingeing about natural events we can do little about. Even If every road was gritted it would still be dangerous.

BBC traffic reports are telling UK drivers that only 20% of roads in the UK are ever gritted and to stick to major routes and even then they are dangerous when gritted.

We have about 55,000 tonnes of salt for the whole winter, we have maybe 60,000 miles of road , it's the equillivant of one thing of table salt (750g) per meter of road

it ain't ever going to be enough to do all roads, no amount of salt can work in the middle of a blizzard, gritters by definition will be driving on ungritted roads (don't overtake them !) and so will take time to cover even the main roads

and salt is no substitute for common sense, leave 8-10 seconds from the car in front when slippy or unsure,

try to slow down approaching lights so you can toddle on through the green rather than stopping and starting again on the slippy bit at the lights

slaneyphone

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

We have about 55,000 tonnes of salt for the whole winter, we have maybe 60,000 miles of road , it's the equillivant of one thing of table salt (750g) per meter of road

it ain't ever going to be enough to do all roads, no amount of salt can work in the middle of a blizzard, gritters by definition will be driving on ungritted roads (don't overtake them !) and so will take time to cover even the main roads

You're dead right. According to someone I know who works in one of the county councils last year they didn't even get all the salt that had been ordered before such January's poor conditions where predicted. Even if all winters are going to be like this for the future then unless the state buys a salt mine somewhere else it's going to difficult to see how all roads could be completely gritted 24/7.

slaneyphone

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I can tell you that there is inadequate or no gritting on the main street and main road in Arklow. God knows what the N11 is like. Why do businesses pay rates (lots of cancellations in local hotel) if the LA are not out helping business by keeping roads clear.

There was a gritter out near Hill's garage at the north end of the town yesterday evening, though it may have come off the N11 as opposed to be working towards the town itself. I agree ideally there should more resources but I guess there is only so much equipment out there, especially seen as the south east traditionally doesn't get much heavy snowfalls compared to the west.

Del2005

mickydoomsux wrote: »

I pay €450 road-tax a year. I expect the roads to be salted/gritted during bad weather. They haven't bothered doing them since last week here. There's your nanny state.

I won't be going to work today and possibly tomorrow as a result :mad:

You pay €0 road tax a year. You pay €450 MOTOR tax a year. There's a big difference.

Stonewolf wrote: »

There are plenty of other parts of the world where they get far more snow for far longer and with much colder temperatures. People there don't seem to have a problem adjusting to winter driving, Irish people are not special unique flowers.

They spend huge money to have the infrastructure in place to deal with it. People would be going mad if the councils spent millions of € on snow and ice clearing machinery for the rare times we actually have bad weather. The last 2 years have been extremes for us.

Cookie_Monster

mickydoomsux wrote: »

I pay €450 road-tax a year. I expect the roads to be salted/gritted during bad weather. They haven't bothered doing them since last week here. There's your nanny state.

I won't be going to work today and possibly tomorrow as a result :mad:

No, you don't pay any road tax at all. you pay motor tax for the pleasure of having a motor car, nothing more.

Cookie_Monster

Losty Dublin wrote: »

If you are driving over snow all the time and if you have proper snow tyres, then yes that's correct. However, nobody drives over snow 24 7 so for ice, wet, dry, slush and other normal road conditions, snow tyres are not far useless and wide tyres are better as a whole.

that's what winter tyres are for, legal requirement in the like of Germany in fact.

AlekSmart

Wise up stop the moaning pull your weight and make it safer to drive in these conditions. be assertive and sort the problem.

I believe Dowdy20 is correct here,however I would direct that sentiment at Mr Noel Dempsey and perhaps Mr John Gormley.

These gentlemen are ostensibly Ministers in this Government with Responsibility for maintaining the safety of our roads infrastructure during events such as this.

These conditions in European terms are relatively mild,but they have been increasing in strenghth and duration for the past decade.

This episode has been well flagged by Met Eireann in particular as far back as last Monday,and with some accuracy too.

We had,on Saturday,the somewhat odd sight,on RTE`s 6 PM News,of a Press Conference featuring Minister Dempsey,Met Eireann`s Evelyn Cusack and representatives of the National Roads Authority.

The message from Minister Dempsey was very clear....WE are prepared,there will be no repetition of last years chaos as stocks and equipment are in place.

Now,either Noel Dempsey was remarkably ill-informed OR he was lying.

I was mobile on Saturday from 0500 to 1630 and my experience was of NO gritting in an area stretching from Rathcoole to Stillorgan to Ballymun.

Again on Sunday I was abroad from 0700 to 1600 from Grange Castle to Tallaght to Stillorgan to Ballymun and encountered a single truck at 1000 in Stillorgan which was not operating.

IF this constitutes "Being Prepared" in Noel Dempseys increasingly strange world then the people need to be advised of what other definitions this Minister applies to his area of responsibility.

All of that being said,there is a very real issue concerning the behaviour of Irish motorists in these conditions.

There has in past decades been a semi-official line that in the Greater Dublin area the major Bus Routes would be treated first and then the crews would attend to other locations as available.

This did NOT happen this weekend for whatever reason,perhaps Minister Dempsey can clarify the reasons.

What was perhaps worse was the lack of any information to Bus Drivers and Controllers as to what resources,if any,would be deployed as the day progressed.

Knowledge is power and gives one the ability to plan for events and adopt alternative strategies...except in this Republic,where knowledge is restricted to Ministers of the Oireachtas and kept securely locked within their thick crania.

Attempting to operate a Bus in conditions such as this is challenging,not due to any driving issues,but largely down to the behaviour and attitudes of other road users.

My work is totally focused upon the footpath.

That is where my passengers come from and where they want to get to.

As a consequence I must attempt to position my 12 tonne 11 metre long 2.5 metre wide vehicle as close to the footpath as possible.

Driving the vehicle presents no great issues,but manouvereing into and out of Stops proves to be an unending war of attrition with a seemingly unending supply of myopic,selfish,aggressive INDIVIDUALS each of whom apparently shot awake that morning with the belief that God had spoken to them during the night and commanded them to go forth and impose their right to do mad-stuff on the world.

The general level of service operated by Dublin Bus over the weekend was good.
The general level of service provided by the Local Authorities was poor to non-existant.

In my own depot the main issues were largely from the usual suspects who don`t stir out until the afternoon and then expend great energy attempting to break things or antagonize other people.

Foxrock Church and Ballyogan apparently had an excess of youthful types this time round who`se priority was to set traps and attack Busdrivers and their passengers.

I have little doubt but that both locations had many elderly or infrim inhabitants who were in need of assistance but perish the thought that any of these cretinous youths might have to perform such worthwhile stuff.

The more I see of how Modern Ireland has collapsed the more I say bring-it-on to the IMF/ECB or whatever entity attempts to put order on our native chaos...I wish yiz luck lad`s !!!

BrianD

I think that certainly in Dublin a good job has been done this year. M50 was moving swiftly last night (people driving 80-100). N3/M3 was also moving fast.

All the nain arteries in the city are drivable. Care required of course.

Big problem is the pavements. We have no tradition of residents and businesses grabbing a spade and clearing them like other countries. Some businesses have and fair play to them.

Colm R

My experience this morning was postive. Most drivers on the M2 seemed to be handling it, and the road seems to have been treated from an early hour.

I am very worried about tomorrow morning, with lots of snow expected tonight.

Cookie_Monster

BrianD wrote: »

Big problem is the pavements. We have no tradition of residents and businesses grabbing a spade and clearing them like other countries. Some businesses have and fair play to them.

the problem here is if you or a business clear the street they are liable. if someone falls of part of a badly cleared street they can sue you for negligence so nobody does it. if you fall on uncleared streets its just your own fault.

Its ****ty but just another fact of life in modern day Ireland. In some countries on the continent you have legal responsibility to clear the path outside you dwelling / business

Capt'n Midnight

BrianD wrote: »

Big problem is the pavements. We have no tradition of residents and businesses grabbing a spade and clearing them like other countries. Some businesses have and fair play to them.

IIRC businesses have a responsibilty to keep the pavement out side their premesis clear

and in Germany you have to have it clear by 8am ? even for private residences

antoinolachtnai

I believe there is a requirement in the Dublin bylaws to keep adjacent pavements clear. http://www.mcgarrsolicitors.ie/2010/01/10/slip-and-fall/

Capt'n Midnight

http://dublincity.wordpress.com/2010/11/29/severe-weather-monday-29th-november-1010am/

Severe Weather – Monday 29th November – 10:10am

The Council has been spreading salt on all national primary,secondary and appropriate regional roads. In addition all main public transport routes and cross connecting routes are receiving salt. The Council has adequate stockpiles of salt and further quantities are available if required. The NRA have been tasked to source all salt supplies for the Country.

The Council has also mobilised an additional workforce of 500 this morning (29th November) to commence clearing footpaths, shopping areas and public transport hubs.

The Council would encourage all householders and shopkeepers to attend to the footpaths outside their dwelling and premises, particularly where no salting of the roads has been carried out.
Met Eireann forecast that this severe weather will continue, at least ,to next weekend.

The following websites may be of interest for additional information on travel services and precautions that be taken for a safe journey:

www.dublincity.ie
www.met.ie
www.transport.ie
www.rsa.ie
www.dublinbus.ie
www.rpa.ie
www.irishrail.ie
www.nra.ie
www.buseireann.ie

encourage , if there is an onus on them to do so then state it

BrianD

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the problem here is if you or a business clear the street they are liable. if someone falls of part of a badly cleared street they can sue you for negligence so nobody does it. if you fall on uncleared streets its just your own fault.

Its ****ty but just another fact of life in modern day Ireland. In some countries on the continent you have legal responsibility to clear the path outside you dwelling / business

Cookie_Monster - I have heard this before but I believe it is scaremongering as there certainly deosn't seem to have any cases so far. Dublin City Council have just issued an alert/press release asking all homeowners and business owners to clear in front of their dwelling or premises.

http://dublincity.wordpress.com/2010/11/29/severe-weather-monday-29th-november-1010am/

BrianD

Pavement clearing advice from DCC via Twitter:

"Our advise would be to shovel the snow from centre to the sides leaving a clear surface to walk on and try not to block drains"

aliveandkicking

Practically all main roads in Dublin city centre have been treated and are clear. Some footpaths have been treated also. Seems to be a lot better managed this time than it was in January.

AlekSmart

Practically all main roads in Dublin city centre have been treated and are clear. Some footpaths have been treated also. Seems to be a lot better managed this time than it was in January.

Yes aliveandkicking that`s true,BUT are we now to take it that road treatment will not take place on weekends ?

If that is the case then all I want is a clear public announcement that this is so.

There were few if any treatment operations on Saturday and Sunday...again not a problem IF we are told !

KC61

I did actually see DCC staff out tackling pavements in the city centre yesterday.

aliveandkicking

AlekSmart wrote: »

Yes aliveandkicking that`s true,BUT are we now to take it that road treatment will not take place on weekends ?

If that is the case then all I want is a clear public announcement that this is so.

There were few if any treatment operations on Saturday and Sunday...again not a problem IF we are told !

Not sure about that Alek. I personally saw a gritter at 4am on Saturday morning when I was coming home from a night out (my taxi got stuck behind it) and coming into work this morning at half 7 the roads had already been done so they were out last night too (Sunday).

antoinolachtnai

It is really hard for the City to cover all the streets, not to mind the pavements. You are talking about a massive area when you put it all together.

It is disappointing that a shopowner on Grafton St. will spend a half a million a year on rent and rates, but doesn't see it as worth his while to salt the road and clear his part of the pavement.