Lidl planning appeal

shomershabbas

I live on Skehard Road in the suburb of Blackrock, Cork. 2 mins walk from Supervalu in one direction, 2 minutes walk from Aldi in the other and Mahon Point shopping centre (Tesco) 10 mins walk away. Lidl have sought planning to open a premises with off licence and parking next to my estate. I and others are opposed on the grounds of worsening traffic and an over saturation of food retail outlets. Would it be worthwhile lodging an appeal or are we pissing against the wind? I know that the argument will be that they are creating employment when badly needed but I disagree. We won't suddenly start buying more food - business will simply be taken from other less aggressively priced shops causing job losses elsewhere. If we do decide to lodge an appeal, what is the best way to go about it? many thanks for any advice. ps. i am not involved in the retail trade in any way.

Poor Uncle Tom

If you or others feel strongly enough about it, then you will need to employ an Architect, Technician or Engineer versed in the appeals proceedure to sort out an appeal on your behalf or through your solicitor. Remember you have 28 days from the date of the Local Authority granting the planning permission to you lodging a valid appeal with An Bord Pleanala.

Your agent should be able to decide with you if there are sufficient grounds for an appeal.

rayjdav

Sorry if stating the obvious but, if the application is just gone in, you must submit an observation at initial planning stage (in the first 5 weeks). If not, you CANNOT lodge an appeal the An bord Pleanala after the decision has being issued by your local Council.
Objections cannot be vexacious and must be based on facts. Remember also, these multinationals have professionals working for them who know what they are doing and have most angles covered prior to planning stage. (I used to work for the Architects who did it for their German rivals:D:D:D)
As PUT said above, for your own sake, employ an AT or someone who knows what they are doing to draft it for you. I have seen DIY appeals and trust me, waste of the stamp.;)

Mellor

shomershabbas wrote: »

If we do decide to lodge an appeal, what is the best way to go about it? many thanks for any advice. ps. i am not involved in the retail trade in any way.

Just on this point, if you or somebody else was involved in retail it would be perfectly acceptable to apppeal agaist a "rival". Taking away from your business would be a valid reason imo.

rayjdav wrote: »

Sorry if stating the obvious but, if the application is just gone in, you must submit an observation at initial planning stage (in the first 5 weeks). If not, you CANNOT lodge an appeal the An bord Pleanala after the decision has being issued by your local Council.
Objections cannot be vexacious and must be based on facts. Remember also, these multinationals have professionals working for them who know what they are doing and have most angles covered prior to planning stage. (I used to work for the Architects who did it for their German rivals:D:D:D)
As PUT said above, for your own sake, employ an AT or someone who knows what they are doing to draft it for you. I have seen DIY appeals and trust me, waste of the stamp.;)

I hink by appeal, the OP meant an observatino at planning stage.

I agree regarding employing an Arch Tech

Lantus

There are 2 stages to the appeal process. Objections and then formally to An bord pleanala which is done after planning if the objections dont work and you still feel you have a valid case.

When any enitity puts in an application for planning anyone can make an objection in writing to the local planning authority. You can ring them or often it may be on line to get the details (planning ref no.) It costs around €20.00 (in louth anyway.)

You DONT nedd to appoint an architect or anyone else to do this if you have half a brain and can use the internet. There are loads of examples of well written letters and how to write them in a proffessional and disspassionate manner. (no ranting!)

You would need a significant amount of well written letters to make a dent in any planning process. However, you may well succeed in making the planners consider other variables such as noise, times of construction if in a residential area, traffic and pedestrian, cycling routes and access etc. Thus improving the overall quality of the final build. You may not o course....

If the planning does get accepted and you still feel objectionable then you can apply to An bord Pleanala only if you did the first objection) at a cost of around €150.00 You should take on proffessional advice for this as the cost alone requires a very serious effort.

Of course you can hire prof advice at any stage if you have the cash and desire. Dont let me stop you.

I have succeded in slowing down a local school expansion and making the planners request traffic and pedestrain/cycle routes for the estate, this may result in traffic lights being installed or a roundabout at the estate entrance so a little victory. better paths and crossings or speed control measures would also be welcome. No AT was employed, did it all myself

Poor Uncle Tom

Lantus wrote: »

There are 2 stages to the appeal process. Objections and then formally to An bord pleanala which is done after planning if the objections dont work and you still feel you have a valid case.

Not entirely correct. These are two seperate procedures.
1. A submission or observation (formerlly known as an objection) is made to a Local Authority in relation to a planning application.
2. An appeal is made to Án Bord Pléanála on foot of a decision being made on a planning application by a Local Authority.
Step 2 cannot be made without first successfully completeing step 1.

Lantus wrote: »

When any enitity puts in an application for planning anyone can make an objection in writing to the local planning authority. You can ring them or often it may be on line to get the details (planning ref no.) It costs around €20.00 (in louth anyway.)

As stated you make a submission or observation and yes it costs €20.

Lantus wrote: »

You DONT nedd to appoint an architect or anyone else to do this if you have half a brain and can use the internet. There are loads of examples of well written letters and how to write them in a proffessional and disspassionate manner. (no ranting!)

The last thing anyone wants is some generic rambling novel, which is supposed to stand as a valid submission. Any submission or observation being made should be relevant, concise and embody all of your concerns, employing someone to do this with you should ensure it is done correctly.

Lantus wrote: »

You would need a significant amount of well written letters to make a dent in any planning process.

Any amount of letters, however 'well written' they are, should not make any dent in the planning process.

Lantus wrote: »

However, you may well succeed in making the planners consider other variables such as noise, times of construction if in a residential area, traffic and pedestrian, cycling routes and access etc. Thus improving the overall quality of the final build. You may not o course....

All of these factors and many, many more should be considered during the design process as well as the planning process. However, I do accept that this is not always the case.

Lantus wrote: »

If the planning does get accepted and you still feel objectionable then you can apply to An bord Pleanala only if you did the first objection) at a cost of around €150.00 You should take on proffessional advice for this as the cost alone requires a very serious effort.

The fee stated is not correct, there are a scale of fees available from Án Bord, the standard for a third party appeal for a single house development is €220.

Lantus wrote: »

Of course you can hire prof advice at any stage if you have the cash and desire. Dont let me stop you.

Making a non-vexatious appeal to articulate your concerns to Án Bord Pléanála through a professional if you feel the Local Authority has not listened to your concerns is not an issue to be scoffed at. However if you are a seriel appellant the fees may become rather strenuous.

Lantus wrote: »

I have succeded in slowing down a local school expansion and making the planners request traffic and pedestrain/cycle routes for the estate,

Finally the light dawns, I notice you don't say,
I succeded in getting traffic lights installed, or
I succeded in getting a roundabout installed. No just,
I succeded in slowing down a local school expansion...
hardly a feat to be lauded.

Lantus wrote: »

this may result in traffic lights being installed or a roundabout at the estate entrance so a little victory. better paths and crossings or speed control measures would also be welcome.

Fortunate side effects which would probably have been conditioned in any case.

Lantus wrote: »

No AT was employed, did it all myself

Quite so;)

Mellor

Lantus wrote: »

You DONT nedd to appoint an architect or anyone else to do this if you have half a brain and can use the internet. There are loads of examples of well written letters and how to write them in a proffessional and disspassionate manner. (no ranting!)

nobody said you need a professional. We said it would be better. I'm sure it is obvious why.
And yes, there are plenty of examples of well written objections from laypeople, but there are far more examples of poorly written objections. The very fact that the OP asked here and didn't just go ahead with it themselves means that they are either aware that it may be best to get help or at least slightly concerned about the content.

shomershabbas

Many thanks for your replies. The planning application notice has just gone up so I am going to make an initial letter of "observation", as it's titled, at a cost of €20. I had a brief read of the application - retail impact assessment etc - and they argue that there is, according to the Cork area strategic plan, a deficit in supply of discount retail stores in the area. There is a **** load of facts and figures to go through but I'll give it a go.

rayjdav

shomershabbas wrote: »

There is a **** load of facts and figures to go through but I'll give it a go.

Is this not valid reason enough to actually employ an AT or similar to do it for you? You get one chance to do it and if you feel strongly enough about it, it will be €€ well spent, imho...

Lantus

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Not entirely correct. These are two seperate procedures.

I did state thte there were 2 and the first was the the local authority and the second to ABP?

1. A submission or observation (formerlly known as an objection) is made to a Local Authority in relation to a planning application.
2. An appeal is made to Án Bord Pléanála on foot of a decision being made on a planning application by a Local Authority.
Step 2 cannot be made without first successfully completeing step 1.

Said all this in my post.

As stated you make a submission or observation and yes it costs €20.

correct?!?

The last thing anyone wants is some generic rambling novel, which is supposed to stand as a valid submission. Any submission or observation being made should be relevant, concise and embody all of your concerns, employing someone to do this with you should ensure it is done correctly.

Like I said all letters should be written in a proffesional manner. Believe it or not some of us are capable of doing this without having to run for the golden pages. As I also said you can employ someone if you want. ONLY the objectioner can know how serious they are about any issue and so if they feel you really need help they will search it out I'm sure.

The fee stated is not correct, there are a scale of fees available from Án Bord, the standard for a third party appeal for a single house development is €220.

OK fee, has gone up since I last checked. Obviously if your doing this you would check yourself and any hired help would advise and direct. Also I said AROUND not EXACTLY.

Making a non-vexatious appeal to articulate your concerns to Án Bord Pléanála through a professional if you feel the Local Authority has not listened to your concerns is not an issue to be scoffed at. However if you are a seriel appellant the fees may become rather strenuous.

I never said it was !!!!!!! The reason why the cost is so high is so the ONLY people who have a grevious reason to make a further case do so. I never made light of this at any point.

Finally the light dawns, I notice you don't say,
I succeded in getting traffic lights installed, or
I succeded in getting a roundabout installed. No just,
I succeded in slowing down a local school expansion...
hardly a feat to be lauded.

Finally your insult axe falls. No I have not succeded in any of this. I may of have a hand in helping to achieve it but it is still on hold pending information so yes none may come to pass and you can laugh as the residents of my estate have to put up with awful traffic and massive school in a small estate on the edge of fields if we fail. But at least I tried.

I dont want a medal or an award and I thought twice before even doing it because having been unemployed for a year €20 is a lot of money when you dont know how your going to pay for your next meal. BUT, the greater good of the community is worth more than that and I believe that good people should stand up and fight for it. Maybe if we had more people like me the Ireish landscae wouldn't riddled with awful estates and poor planning. 7 times the zoned retail space per capita than the UK and a legacy we have not yet fully been able to rationalise because the fallout of our poor planning is still several years in the future. Another ticking time bomb...wont spoil it for you.

Nothing may come of my objection but you should give others hope because in an era of proffesional doomsayers it's only going to be the positive that drives us forward. Sometimes that means standing up for each other and our local areas.

Mellor

Lantus wrote: »

I did state thte there were 2 and the first was the the local authority and the second to ABP?

You said two stages, PUT was clarifying for laypeople that there isn't actually two stages and they are totall separate processes.

Like I said all letters should be written in a proffesional manner. Believe it or not some of us are capable of doing this without having to run for the golden pages. As I also said you can employ someone if you want. ONLY the objectioner can know how serious they are about any issue and so if they feel you really need help they will search it out I'm sure.

But msot aren't. Not an opinion, a simple fact.
The fact that you can doesn't change this.

OK fee, has gone up since I last checked. Obviously if your doing this you would check yourself and any hired help would advise and direct. Also I said AROUND not EXACTLY.

Clarifying for the OP. Serious, what is with the attitude?

I never said it was !!!!!!! The reason why the cost is so high is so the ONLY people who have a grevious reason to make a further case do so. I never made light of this at any point.

Your "don't let me stop you" comment came accross a bit like "its not needed but suit yourself". Which may or may not be intended. Again, clarify for laypeople.

Finally your insult axe falls. No I have not succeded in any of this...

... Sometimes that means standing up for each other and our local areas.

TBH, preventing a school recieve planning for additional space is hardly totally helping the local area, there are positive aspect as well as negitive aspects. PUT's point, and I agree, was that a school that likely needed the space (or else it wouldn't recieve funding) and another shopping centre where not required are no exactly on the same level.

Nobody said you have to do it either way. I have seen what people consider a "high quality submission", ditto for planning applications. In my opinion, its better to seek professional help. Am I biased, maybe. But, the point you ar missing is;

Maybe if we had more people like me the Ireish landscae wouldn't riddled with awful estates and poor planning

Maybe is more people got professional help instead of doing it themselves would more objections be successful.
And, before you get insulted again, this is in no way a comment on your situation and objection. I have no idea if it was good or terrible. How would I.

Poor Uncle Tom

Mellor has cleared up most of what would have been my response but I would just like to add in relation to the fee for an appeal. If it is not correct the appeal may not be accepted as being valid, so it is important to get it exact.

Lantus wrote: »

Like I said all letters should be written in a proffesional manner. Believe it or not some of us are capable of doing this without having to run for the golden pages.

Yes, that is the case. But, I submit that there are even more people who are not capable of making an appeal without the help of a professional.

Lantus wrote: »

Finally your insult axe falls. No I have not succeded in any of this.

I was responding to your own words in your previous post

I have succeded in slowing down a local school expansion and making the planners request traffic and pedestrain/cycle routes for the estate, this may result in traffic lights being installed or a roundabout at the estate entrance so a little victory.

I think I need to make myself very clear here.

The appeals process is a very necessary procedure to aid in the proper planning and sustainable development for an area, if and when a developer, a designer and a planner lose sight of the bigger picture and allow a development where it shouldn't be or refuse a development where it ought to be, then a member of the public can step forward, through the appeal process, and attempt to rectify that wrong.

I am in favour of the appeals procedure, I am not in favour of the abuse of the appeals procedure, where someone jumps in to upset/delay/stop a development just because they can. The final paragraph of your post No.5 on this thread, reads as though there is a vexatious element to your appeal, if that is not the case then my comment was acidic and consider it retracted.

th awful estates and poor planning. 7 times the zoned retail space per capita than the UK and a legacy we have not yet fully been able to rationalise because the fallout of our poor planning is still several years in the future. Another ticking time bomb...wont spoil it for you.

Nothing may come of my objection but you should give others hope because in an era of proffesional doomsayers it's only going to be the positive that drives us forward. Sometimes that means standing up for each other and our local areas.

We are well overdue a total overhaul of the planning system in this country, imo, a discussion for another thread.

urbanachiever1

To follow up on the original posting. Lidl's application (10/34663 - [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]16/11/2010[/FONT]) to build on this site was rejected by Cork City Council. There were 34 submissions/objections. They are appealing. At the same time they have lodged a modified version of the original planning application (11/34853). There were 25 submissions/objections this time. We are awaiting the decision. I guess they will keep applying until concerned locals are worn down and give up.

sydthebeat

extremely cheeky applying for a modified version of the proposal they have at appeal stage..... there must be significant changes

if not, the council could have been stronger and not accepting an application for a proposal which is by and large the same as the one thats at appeal stage....

sinnerboy

That's exactly what Aldi did in my town - and they are here now . So are Lidl.

I'm glad too.

katierose1

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

If you or others feel strongly enough about it, then you will need to employ an Architect, Technician or Engineer versed in the appeals proceedure to sort out an appeal on your behalf or through your solicitor. Remember you have 28 days from the date of the Local Authority granting the planning permission to you lodging a valid appeal with An Bord Pleanala.

Your agent should be able to decide with you if there are sufficient grounds for an appeal.

OP, if you have any concerns about your ability to respond to a planning application, a properly qualified planning consultant is the best person to advise. Some architects, ATs and Engineers will have experience of the planning process regarding individual applications, one-off developments and such but a qualified planning consultant will have a comprehensive knowledge of the planning system and be well versed in submissions, objections and, most importantly, the appeals process. It's a pity planners aren't consulted more often -especially in cases like this where a community issue is involved.

If you objected to the original application, you should also submit a comment to an Bord Pleanala if the decision is appealed. This is important as the Bord consider all application as if they were new applications.

rayjdav

katierose1 wrote: »

Some architects, ATs and Engineers will have experience of the planning process regarding individual applications, one-off developments and such but a qualified planning consultant will have a comprehensive knowledge of the planning system and be well versed in submissions, objections and, most importantly, the appeals process. It's a pity planners aren't consulted more often -especially in cases like this where a community issue is involved.

Katierose1,
Sorry, but could not let this go, I tried:D

If you care to hang around here you will see that there are MANY AT's/Arch's that are VERY WELL versed and have very comprehensive knowledge of the complete Planning System.
Do agree that in a situation involving a respected Multi-National's application, some form of professional should be employed, be it AT/Arch/Eng. and even Planning Consultant....;)

katierose1

rayjdav wrote: »

Katierose1,
Sorry, but could not let this go, I tried:D

If you care to hang around here you will see that there are MANY AT's/Arch's that are VERY WELL versed and have very comprehensive knowledge of the complete Planning System.
Do agree that in a situation involving a respected Multi-National's application, some form of professional should be employed, be it AT/Arch/Eng. and even Planning Consultant....;)

I don't entirely disagree with you - especially as those who submit to Boards will be interested and probably have sufficient knowledge - but not all ATs/Archs/Engs will!

Unlike architects, there is little restriction on who can set themselves up as a 'planning consultant' at the moment, although there are plans to change this. AFAIK, most architect's courses will have modules in planning but not many other professions will, unless it is those limited aspects of planning directly related to their specific discipline.


Most people who submit a planning application will hopefully have an appropriate level of knowledge or an agent who knows what they are doing - this isn't really an issue for simple applications, especially as most architects can deal with these. The bigger applications will always employ someone who is qualified in planning.

In a case like this, (the OPs) , a member of the public or community group responding to an application - it can be difficult to know where to go for advice (especially at appeal stage, where the time is short) but so often a qualified planner isn't even considered (possibly because most people believe planners are only employed by the councils?) :rolleyes:

I would firmly advise anyone objecting to an appeal to at least consider having some professional advice - it is amazing how much a properly worded concise letter can achieve. If an appeal goes to an oral hearing, even more so - as these are often court-like in their set up, with the multi-national employing a barrister and a range of consultants.

The tactic of submitting an amended application while another is under appeal is not unheard of - it can confuse objectors and the company involved can always withdraw either their application or appeal, whichever comes out first in their favour..... keep an eye on both.

shomershabbas

I am unemployed so I can't afford to pay for the services of an architect or planning consultant. One would think that the planning process is fairly clearly defined and when an application to build a development that contravenes the council's own development plan for that area, then that should be enough to stop it.

shomershabbas

Also, Sinnerboy, I don't think there is any need for the huge flag waving! I've nothing against Germans, Aldi or Lidl. I shop in my local Aldi often. This is simply a case of bad planning.

sydthebeat

shomershabbas wrote: »

Also, Sinnerboy, I don't think there is any need for the huge flag waving! I've nothing against Germans, Aldi or Lidl. I shop in my local Aldi often. This is simply a case of bad planning.

shemora, you have only two posts so far in this thread so its hard to gain exactly whats happening here but a few pointers:

1. as you live in an estate, is there enough of a feeling within to create a focus group where you can all pitch in and hire someone? or share out appeal costs.....

2. have you made a submission yet on the newer application? what exactly are the modifications between the first and second application?

Poor Uncle Tom

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

If you or others feel strongly enough about it, then you will need to employ an Architect, Technician or Engineer versed in the appeals proceedure to sort out an appeal on your behalf or through your solicitor. Remember you have 28 days from the date of the Local Authority granting the planning permission to you lodging a valid appeal with An Bord Pleanala.

Your agent should be able to decide with you if there are sufficient grounds for an appeal.

I believe the highlighted section above explains where I was coming from with that statement.

katierose1 wrote: »

OP, if you have any concerns about your ability to respond to a planning application, a properly qualified planning consultant is the best person to advise. Some architects, ATs and Engineers will have experience of the planning process regarding individual applications, one-off developments and such but a qualified planning consultant will have a comprehensive knowledge of the planning system and be well versed in submissions, objections and, most importantly, the appeals process. It's a pity planners aren't consulted more often -especially in cases like this where a community issue is involved.

I make no apology for recommending someone in my profession, provided they are versed in the procedure, as stated above.

katierose1 wrote: »

I don't entirely disagree with you - especially as those who submit to Boards will be interested and probably have sufficient knowledge - but not all ATs/Archs/Engs will!

For an appeal of the nature described, I believe experience in the procedure will prove more valuable than the profession of the agent.

katierose1 wrote: »

Unlike architects, there is little restriction on who can set themselves up as a 'planning consultant' at the moment, although there are plans to change this. AFAIK, most architect's courses will have modules in planning but not many other professions will, unless it is those limited aspects of planning directly related to their specific discipline.

More reason to get someone well versed in the appeals procedure.

katierose1 wrote: »

but so often a qualified planner isn't even considered (possibly because most people believe planners are only employed by the councils?) :rolleyes:

Highlighting the profile of the profession may help, but this is not the forum for that, and given that "there is little restriction on who can set themselves up as a 'planning consultant' at the moment," is it any wonder?

katierose1 wrote: »

I would firmly advise anyone objecting to an appeal to at least consider having some professional advice

Agreed 100%

Mellor

katierose1 wrote: »

Unlike architects, there is little restriction on who can set themselves up as a 'planning consultant' at the moment, although there are plans to change this. AFAIK, most architect's courses will have modules in planning but not many other professions will, unless it is those limited aspects of planning directly related to their specific discipline.

You appear to not separate (or are unaware of the difference) between Architects and Architectural Technologists

To clarify,
Architects have professional title protection, ATs do not
ATs also study the planning system in a similar capacity to Architects

shomershabbas

sydthebeat wrote: »

shemora, you have only two posts so far in this thread so its hard to gain exactly whats happening here but a few pointers:

1. as you live in an estate, is there enough of a feeling within to create a focus group where you can all pitch in and hire someone? or share out appeal costs.....

2. have you made a submission yet on the newer application? what exactly are the modifications between the first and second application?

Yes, there is a focus group organised by a third party and I think that if the appeal is successful a professional may be hired with shared costs.

The second application (11/34835) was refused on 21/6/2011. The first application is at appeal stage.The first application included two additional small retail units to the standard Lidl shopping centre, car park and signage as seen throughout the country. These retail units were dropped in the second application.
The reasons given for the refusal of the second application are, in summary:
1. The area is zoned for "Residential, Local Services and Institutional Uses" in the Cork City Development Plan 2009 and the nature and the scale of the proposed development does not adhere to this.
2. Area would not cope with extra traffic, noise and activity and the value of residential property in the area would depreciate.