Dept. of Transport's 4 year plan on roads released - your reactions?

Tech3

What road projects will proceed in 2011?
· NRA will go ahead with the planned 2011 starts and have adequate money for rehabilitation and minor works.
· Starts include Belturbet / N5 Longford/ Tralee bypasses and the Cork Southern Ring Road junctions.
· Two PPP projects will also start in 2011 - the M17/18 Gort – Tuam PPP and M11/Newlands Cross PPP bypasses.
· Purchase of land for service areas and expressions of interest from developers


What roads projects are planned after 2011?
· There will be no major schemes starting in 2012 or 2013.
· Possibility of commencing construction of N14 Lifford/Letterkenny.
· The following high priority schemes will proceed as funding becomes available and planning permission is granted: N5 Ballaghadreen bypass, the N4 Downes grade separation, the N2 Slane bypass, the N22 Macroom to Ballyvourney, the N8/N25 Dunkettle roundabout.
· The Enniscorthy/ New Ross bypasses PPP may restart the procurement process when there is further insight into 2015 and 2016 funding plans.
· Rehabilitation and minor works will be curtailed in 2013 and 2014, to the extent necessary to balance the budget, but will be increased again in 2015 (even if the overall budget stays very low). This will be necessary to protect existing investment.

What are the plans re tolling?
The Minister has received a report from the NRA with a range of options for tolling. He is examining this report at present and will shortly respond to NRA. If a decision is taken to approve additional tolling any revenue will be used to further improve the road network. The earliest date for introduction of new tolls would be late 2012.

http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=257

Amtmann

The priorities don't seem too bad to me at first glance when you consider that "major" schemes won't be started for the next three years.

Priority "major" schemes would include, to my mind (and not in order of importance):

• M20
• N22 Cork NRR
• N6 Galway Outer Bypass
• N24 Pallasgreen to Cahir
• N28 Ringaskiddy to Cork
• M11 Gorey to Oilgate (Enniscorthy Bypass)
• N25 New Ross Bypass

These are the most important of the biggies.

Of the smaller schemes which are to be advanced, I'm delighted to see the Dunkettle Interchange being advanced through the planning stages, and will be thrilled to see the SRR flyovers underway.

All the listed bypasses are necessary and I'm glad they'll proceed.

Also very pleased that the MSAs seem to back on the agenda.

marmurr1916

What road projects will proceed in 2011?
· NRA will go ahead with the planned 2011 starts and have adequate money for rehabilitation and minor works.
· Starts include Belturbet / N5 Longford/ Tralee bypasses and the Cork Southern Ring Road junctions.
· Two PPP projects will also start in 2011 - the M17/18 Gort – Tuam PPP and M11/Newlands Cross PPP bypasses.

Good to see these going ahead. I presume 'M11 PPP bypasses' includes the Enniscorthy bypass AND the closing of the Arklow - Rathnew gap.

· Purchase of land for service areas and expressions of interest from developers

Why can't the developers buy the land, once the NRA chooses the locations?

It's a pity that nothing is planned for 2012 and 2013, especially the M20, but at least 2011 isn't too bad - assuming the IMF approves this!

According to the four-year plan, the National Pension Reserve Fund is going to be tapped for infrastructure investment.

jd

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Good to see these going ahead. I presume 'M11 PPP bypasses' includes the Enniscorthy bypass AND the closing of the Arklow - Rathnew gap.

Just the N11 gap - the Enniscorthy bypass is in a different PPP package (N25 New Ross by-pass)

Sponge Bob

Cough. The following will not start IN the next 3 years . None will complete IN the next 5 years.

All of these are MAJOR schemes. You forgot Adare which is part of an M20 scheme.

Furet wrote: »

The priorities don't seem too bad to me...

• M20
• N22 Cork NRR
• N6 Galway Outer Bypass
• N24 Pallasgreen to Cahir
• N28 Ringaskiddy to Cork
• M11 Gorey to Oilgate (Enniscorthy Bypass)
• N25 New Ross Bypass

The following is good news for safety reasons. They can drop Athlone if they must but the M7 M8 and M9 are lethally long stretches with no services online or within a convenient 500m hop like Athlone.

Also very pleased that the MSAs seem to back on the agenda.

Amtmann

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Cough. The following will not start IN the next 3 years . None will complete IN the next 5 years.

All of these are MAJOR schemes. You forgot Adare which is part of an M20 scheme.

I know they are. That's why I said I'm pleased with the schemes that are going ahead, given that they are minor, not "major". They will deliver a lot for the relatively little they'll cost. I included the Adare Bypass with the M20.

Chris_5339762

I'm surprised at what is being done still.

Granted, we've lost the M20 and New Ross/Enniscorthy for now, but I thought it would be a lot worse.

Getting M11/Newlands and M17/18 done will be good, Cork SRRs will help an awful lot of people every day and Dunkettle being bumped up the list is a big thing too.

I'm surprised this wasnt much worse.

Tech3

My first reaction was that the M20 is getting pushed back further. The schemes to start in 2011 are what every poster here expected but zero projects starting in 2012 or 2013 would be a slight suprise.

I still think the Tralee bypass is a waste of capital funding given what crucial projects could be built instead of it. Any one of the these schemes built instead would be more beneficial and will reduce fatal accidents:

• N24 Cahir-Pallasgreen
• N21 Adare-Abbeyfeale
• N17 Tuam-Claremorris

Yes it is essentially "nearly ready to build" but that should not be a reason to get this to construction ahead of the above dangerous sections of national primary roads. I really dont believe it will reduce congestion in the town and the design is flawed.

On the roads announced for 2011 it is indeed great news. Soon we will have Galway-Limerick fully dualed. Also Newlands X will be at last upgraded and the most dangerous section of the N11 will be bypassed. The N5 will be improved slightly with the Longford bypass.

helimachoptor

M11 to newlands X by pass, has anyone a proposed map for this??

Roryhy

helimachoptor wrote: »

M11 to newlands X by pass, has anyone a proposed map for this??

You do realise they're 2 seperate schemes don't you?

I haven't seen finalised maps for either come to think of it!

helimachoptor

Roryhy wrote: »

You do realise they're 2 seperate schemes don't you?

I haven't seen finalised maps for either come to think of it!

Sorry I just read the OP Tuam PPP and M11/Newlands Cross PPP bypasses, and was thinking off an inner outer orbital type road from newlands to the m11/m50 merge

BluntGuy

Given how bad it could have been, I'm glad that the two most important long overdue schemes (in my view), Newlands Cross and the SRRs are getting the priority.

Pity about the M20, but its chances have been fading for a very long time.

-Corkie-

BluntGuy wrote: »

Given how bad it could have been, I'm glad that the two most important long overdue schemes (in my view), Newlands Cross and the SRRs are getting the priority.

Pity about the M20, but its chances have been fading for a very long time.

Im gutted the M20 is of the cards and for how long now is the question..:(:(.

Amtmann

-Corkie- wrote: »

Im gutted the M20 is of the cards and for how long now is the question..:(:(.

On the bright side, it will probably be approved by An Bord Pleanála on 2 December, which means it will be ready to roll rapidly once funding becomes available again. That said, the earliest the southern section can now open would be late 2016 or some time in 2017, if it goes to construction in early 2015.

Chris_5339762

I reckon the M20 will stay on the cards. The fact that its a gigantic missing link in the system and that those in charge have finally realised this is important. Its just too expensive at the moment to built an 80km motorway and small scale improvements just wouldnt be worth it. But I'm convinced it will be built - not sure when though.

BluntGuy

-Corkie- wrote: »

Im gutted the M20 is of the cards and for how long now is the question..:(:(.

Considering it didn't even get a mention, it's most likely joining Dart Underground in either the "post 2020" or "scrapped" queue.

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

Considering it didn't even get a mention, it's most likely joining Dart Underground in either the "post 2020" or "scrapped" queue.

The temptation to blame Martin Cullen is almost irresistible. If the M8 had been routed as is as far as Cashel and then onwards to Kilkenny and Carlow to meet the M7 at Kilcullen, the M9 would not have been necessary and we could have had the M20. I believe the M20, with the M18 factored in, is far more important than the M9. Spilled milk now of course. They also made a bags of the N24 during the boom. It should have been more highly prioritised. This would have benefited Waterford, the midwest and the western seaboard.

Chris_5339762

Furet wrote: »

The temptation to blame Martin Cullen is almost irresistible. If the M8 had been routed as is as far as Cashel and then onwards to Kilkenny and Carlow to meet the M7 at Kilcullen, the M9 would not have been necessary and we could have had the M20. I believe the M20, with the M18 factored in, is far more important than the M9. Spilled milk now of course. They also made a bags of the N24 during the boom. It should have been more highly prioritised. This would have benefited Waterford, the midwest and the western seaboard.

The M6 and M7 should have been built as planned. The M8 should have gone via Kilkenny across to Cahir, Mitchelstown and Fermoy. Waterford should have been provided via an extended and slightly re-routed M11. M20 should have been done via Mitchelstown.

I'm thankful for what we have though, imagine if the bust had come a year earlier before the final sections of the interurbans had been signed. (Imagine now having M7/M8 scheme cancelled before it started for instance).

Amtmann

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I'm thankful for what we have though, imagine if the bust had come a year earlier before the final sections of the interurbans had been signed. (Imagine now having M7/M8 scheme cancelled before it started for instance).

On the whole I'm very thankful too. I will be delighted to see the back of FF, but in fairness to them, they were some party to build roads. The road improvements and the smoking ban - two good things they did.

Sponge Bob

Lets see. Noel Dempsey announced the following in January 2010

http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=170

Seven projects are moving forward into the Compulsory Purchase Order stage in 2010 and the projects are:

q N4 The Downs Grade Seperation

q N14/N15 Link to Strabane

q M20 Cork to Limerick

q N21 Adare Bypass

q N25 Carrigtwohill to Middleton

q N30 Clonroche to New Ross

q N52 Carrickbridge to Dalystown.

Lets see.

q N4 The Downs Grade Seperation cancelled

q N14/N15 Link to Strabane sent to redesign

q M20 Cork to Limerick cancelled

q N21 Adare Bypass cancelled

q N25 Carrigtwohill to Middleton cancelled

q N30 Clonroche to New Ross cancelled

q N52 Carrickbridge to Dalystown. cancelled

Instead we get

N25 SRR
N3 Belturbet Bypass
N5 Longford Bypass

What about last year, 2009 ?

http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=48

N11 Gorey to Enniscorthy (Incl Enniscorthy Bypass)
N20 Cork to Limerick – Northern Section
N20 Cork to Limerick – Southern Section
N22 Cork Northern Ring Road Dual Carriageway
N22 Ballyvourney to Macroom Dual Carriageway
N25 Carrigtwohill to Middleton
N56 Mountcharles to Inver

N11 Gorey to Enniscorthy (Incl Enniscorthy Bypass) cancelled
N20 Cork to Limerick – Northern Section cancelled
N20 Cork to Limerick – Southern Section cancelled
N22 Cork Northern Ring Road Dual Carriageway cancelled
N22 Ballyvourney to Macroom Dual Carriageway cancelled
N25 Carrigtwohill to Middleton cancelled
N56 Mountcharles to Inver cancelled

2008 was a good year

N4 Carrick on Shannon to Dromod
N11 Enniscorthy Bypass
N15 Ballybofey / Stranorlar Bypass
N22 Tralee Bypass / Tralee / Bealagrellagh
N22 Ballyvourney to Macroom
N25 Carrigtwohill to Middleton
N56 Mountcharles to Inver
N87 Ballyconnell Inner Relief Road

N4 Carrick on Shannon to Dromod cancelled
N11 Enniscorthy Bypass cancelled
N15 Ballybofey / Stranorlar Bypass cancelled
N22 Tralee Bypass / Tralee / Bealagrellagh NOT CANCELLED HALLELUJAH
N22 Ballyvourney to Macroom cancelled
N25 Carrigtwohill to Middleton cancelled
N56 Mountcharles to Inver cancelled
N87 Ballyconnell Inner Relief Road cancelled


Forgive me for not believing a single word that comes out of any part of Noel Dempsey

Back in 2007 there was a Martin Cullen who announced the following CPO list for 2007

January 2011 Status

RED = Not Tendered
BLUE = Tendered NOT CANCELLED but NOT Under Construction
GREEN = Under Construction

BLACK = BUILT AND OPEN

Appendix 4 Projects Proceeding to CPO / EIS during 2007

Route Region Scheme Road Type Length Km

N4 BMW Carrick on Shannon Bypass 2+1 Carriageway 6
N5 BMW Longford Bypass Single Carriageway 2.6
N7 S&E Newlands Cross Interchange
N11 S&E Enniscorthy Bypass Dual Carriageway 20
N15 BMW Ballybofey / Stranorlar Bypass Dual Carriageway 16
N17 BMW Galway / Tuam Dual Carriageway 22
N22 S&E Tralee Bypass / Tralee / Bealagrellagh Single Carriageway 11
N22 S&E Ballyvourney to Macroom Single Carriageway 42
N25 S&E New Ross Bypass Dual Carriageway 16
N25 S&E Carrigtwohill to Middleton Dual Carriageway 4.5
N26 BMW Ballina / Bohola Phase 2 Single Carriageway 18
N56 BMW Mountcharles to Inver Single Carriageway 4.9
N87 BMW Ballyconnell Inner Relief Road Single Carriageway 1.2

Chris_5339762

Furet wrote: »

Also very pleased that the MSAs seem to back on the agenda.

Just thinking about it, with the success of the two on the M1 and the M4 MSA, the penny has dropped that scrapping the rest of them was a daft idea. The M1 ones are always wedged with people and having one at Cashel on the M8 at least is necessary. One on the M7 near Roscrea wouldnt hurt. Maybe the M9 can just about do without one but one near Castledermot would keep us ticking over for now.

celticbest

Would there be a cost to the Government through the NRA for MSA's? Would the person awarded the contract for running the SA not bear the cost of construction?

Is the Newlands X freeflow still planned??

jd

celticbest wrote: »

Is the Newlands X freeflow still planned??

Yes (see first post in thread)

celticbest

jd wrote: »

Yes (see first post in thread)

Sorry, I thought "Newlands Cross PPP bypass" was a new scheme, not the freeflow upgrade.......

Zubeneschamali

My reaction is the same as my reaction to the Governments 4 year budget plan: not worth the paper it's written on.

Amtmann

Look at what that so-called "transport reporter" Paul Melia wrote in the Independent today:



Clearly doesn't know his arse from his elbow when it comes to the road plans for this country. The HUGE story yesterday, from a roads point of view, was that the M20 has been put into suspended animation. Yet he never mentioned that, instead merely listing all the schemes on the DoT press release and getting that wrong too. The N22 Macroom to Ballyvourney, for instance, is seemingly BACK on the agenda after yesterday because it had been suspended for the best part of the past year-and-a-half. The N8/N25 Dunkettle Interchange has rocketed to the forefront of NRA plans rather than been "shelved". Cork is not going to get a "south ring road". How this man is a transport journalist is utterly beyond me.

Road-Hog

Not if anymore but when we have the new government in place (sometime in february) are there likely to be any changes to the proposed projects shelved etc.......??

Amtmann

Road-Hog wrote: »

Not if anymore but when we have the new government in place (sometime in february) are there likely to be any changes to the proposed projects shelved etc.......??

That's a good question. I'd say the bulk if not all of the contracts for 2011 will have been signed by the time the government changes, so any changes to the list would happen post-2011 I'd say.

Whatever government comes in will be limited by two factors: scheme cost, and scheme readiness to be built. The schemes listed in yesterday's release are both cheap and almost ready, so these will probably go ahead as planned between 2012 and 2014.

The only real change, I think, would be that a putative Cork transport minister (i.e. Simon Coveney) might try to advance the North Ring Road and the N28. I know from private correspondence with him that the N28 in particular is a personal priority of his. I've no problem with that, since its business case is very solid indeed. Its EIS hasn't even been prepared yet, let alone submitted to An Bord Pleanála. We could also see the M20 moving towards construction again, since a number of FG TDs have been quite vocal on the need to get it built.

So, as I see it, no schemes will be dropped from the announcement that issued yesterday regardless of who the next minister is. If any scheme is to be added again, then I think they would be the M20, the N28, and the Cork NRR. Coveney is also committed to the service areas (he says). Joe Costello is Labour's transport spokesman; I really hope he doesn't become the minister, because he's had next to nothing to say about roads in a very long time.

JupiterKid

I'm pretty surprised that any major new road schemes are going to construction next year but I am very glad that the ones that are are those most deserving of prioritisation. The N11 gap and Newlands Cross are "backlog" schemes which must proceed with urgency.

I'm also very thankful that the the MIU motorway system was put into place before this fiscal crisis. We have the legacy of a superb system of roads. The MSAs needs to be rolled out on the M7 and M8.

However, I'm sceptical of many aspects of the recovery plan and think that it's got an FF gombeen flavour all over it with a few to saving the few votes that they have left in the next election.The economic growth rates that it is predicated on are a little too optimistic IMO.

Hogzy

Furet wrote: »

I know from private correspondence with him that the N28 in particular is a personal priority of his.

Probably because he lives within a stones throw away from it.

Amtmann

Hogzy wrote: »

Probably because he lives within a stones throw away from it.

He certainly does. However, the N28 is very important for Cork City, the port, and the pharmaceutical industry. It is monstrously over-capacity, extremely hazardous, and utterly insufficient. Furthermore, the upgrade will only be 13km long. This is one road that should go ahead and I'll be happy if Coveney pushes it. That said, Carrigaline's population grew to ridiculous levels during the boom and no services were provided. It is dominated by cars whizzing all over it. I've never seen the like to be quite honest.

Hogzy

Furet wrote: »

He certainly does. However, the N28 is very important for Cork City, the port, and the pharmaceutical industry. It is monstrously over-capacity, extremely hazardous, and utterly insufficient. Furthermore, the upgrade will only be 13km long. This is one road that should go ahead and I'll be happy if Coveney pushes it. That said, Carrigaline's population grew to ridiculous levels during the boom and no services were provided. It is dominated by cars whizzing all over it. I've never seen the like to be quite honest.

Cant disagree with you one bit. It is massively over crowded and quite dangerous too. THere have been numerous deaths on that road in the previous years (2 in the last 4 months). Ill never forget the morning i flew out of Cork airport and looked over the N28 and just saw a line of headlights stretching from the Rochestown flyover back to Carrigaline. It really does need an upgrade and its good to see that Coveney will be supporting it.

Aidan1

However, the N28 is very important for Cork City, the port, and the pharmaceutical industry.

Absolutely. That road services some critical FDI projects that provide a huge amount of employment, and a massive amount of our export capacity. The importance of that cluster of high end pharma business to the national economy shouldn't be underestimated.

Furthermore, Port of Cork were refused planning for a large expansion of the Ringaskiddy site, at least partially on the basis of the poor road network. Without the port expansion, POC can't move out of the city centre, and free up quay space there. Furthermore, the region needs improved port capacity badly, particularly if exports are to grow (and they will need to). So, in short, the N28 is of national importance. Personally, I'd put it ahead of the M20 and N25 junctions in the pecking order.

Amtmann

Aidan1 wrote: »

So, in short, the N28 is of national importance. Personally, I'd put it ahead of the M20 and N25 junctions in the pecking order.

Yet even the detailed design hasn't even been done yet. The more I think about it, the fact that it has been mothballed is outrageous.

ongarboy

tech2 wrote: »

My first reaction was that the M20 is getting pushed back further. The schemes to start in 2011 are what every poster here expected but zero projects starting in 2012 or 2013 would be a slight suprise.

I still think the Tralee bypass is a waste of capital funding given what crucial projects could be built instead of it. Any one of the these schemes built instead would be more beneficial and will reduce fatal accidents:

• N24 Cahir-Pallasgreen
• N21 Adare-Abbeyfeale
• N17 Tuam-Claremorris

Yes it is essentially "nearly ready to build" but that should not be a reason to get this to construction ahead of the above dangerous sections of national primary roads. I really dont believe it will reduce congestion in the town and the design is flawed.

On the roads announced for 2011 it is indeed great news. Soon we will have Galway-Limerick fully dualed. Also Newlands X will be at last upgraded and the most dangerous section of the N11 will be bypassed. The N5 will be improved slightly with the Longford bypass.

I agree with you tech2 that there are bigger priorities than the Tralee bypass. I'm from Tralee originally so am pleased for Tralee that it is getting this bypass but rationally, I can see that infrastructure like bypasses of Slane and Adare (or even the Macroom to Ballyvourney road) surely were far more important. Tralee is really just an end destination on the national road networ. I guess the fact that the planning permission/EIS/constraints/purchase and tenders were all ready to go that it was easier to proceed with it. My sympathies to other areas that are now going to have to wait 4+ years for their improvements (especially the death trap that is Slane village)

Chris_5339762

Cheap & ready to go. Thats why its being done.

Mayo Exile

Pleased to see the N5 Longford bypass is to start next year. Many use the Lisbrack Road as the current "unofficial" N5 bypass of the town. Dangerous junction when trying to get on to the west bound lane of the N5 from this road.