DART Interconnector postponed in cutbacks

Oliver1985

Work on Dublin's Metro North is still scheduled to start in 2012 but the DART Interconnector has been postponed because of the cutbacks in the Government's programme.
Work on Dublin's Metro North is still scheduled to start in 2012 but the DART Interconnector has been postponed because of the cutbacks in the Government's programme.
Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey said because the DART Underground project is still in its planning stage and is not ready to go ahead, there will be no money available to start before 2014.
Luas City Centre and Luas Broombridge lines (Line BXD), connecting the Green Line, which terminates at St Stephen's Green, to the Red Line, which runs along Abbey Street, will not go ahead during the lifetime of the present programme.

Luas extensions to Lucan and Bray are also on hold.
Mr Dempsey said there would be a further review before consideration of phase two of the Western Rail Corridor.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1124/economy_transport.html

:eek::eek:

Run_to_da_hills

Not at all surprised.

Jehuty42

Can't believe they're going through with MN over DU. I thought everyone agreed that if it came down to it, DU was the better choice as it opens up the full potential of the existing heavy rail lines in the GDA. Gutted, absolutely gutted. At least the Luas link-up isn;t going through, but that might just mean that we'll be ripping up the streets a few years after MN.

Run_to_da_hills

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Can't believe they're going through with MN over DU. I thought everyone agreed that if it came down to it, DU was the better choice as it opens up the full potential of the existing heavy rail lines in the GDA. Gutted, absolutely gutted. At least the Luas link-up isn;t going through, but that might just mean that we'll be ripping up the streets a few years after MN.

But at least we will have 4500 extra push bikes on the streets. :pac:

Neworder79

Shocking decision, how will DU be built below an existing metro station? Dig up the green for another 5 years?

They are denying Dublin a more benefical cross city, integrated electric rail network inorder to build a glitzy carrot to dangle over the Dublin electorate and save their asses in the election. :mad:

AlekSmart

They are denying Dublin a more benefical cross city, integrated electric rail network inorder to build a glitzy carrot to dangle over the Dublin electorate and save their asses in the election.

You have it in one,Neworder79.

What this decision more than adequately demonstrates is that the number of personnel in the Dept of Transport capable of actually understanding the nature of Dublins disjointed Public Transport systems are significantly outnumbered by philistines in the Dept of Finance.

It`s a great pity this job-lot was`nt forensically inspected by the "Germans" from the IMF/ECB who might just have reached a different conclusion.

Oliver1985

So now everyone has to walk from the metro north station at the green to Connolly or Hueston:eek:

shamwari

TBH, I'm surprised that both projects weren't shelved. The conspiracy theorist in me has always reckoned that both were to do with providing enhanced transport links to facilitate commuter-belt development on a grand scale. Which as we all know, isn't gonna happen.

Telchak

Oliver1985 wrote: »

So now everyone has to walk from the metro north station at the green to Connolly or Hueston:eek:

Luas Red Line from O'Connell Street?

BluntGuy

Incoming government might shelf MN as well.

KC61

Oliver1985 wrote: »

So now everyone has to walk from the metro north station at the green to Connolly or Hueston:eek:

Not quite - change at Drumcondra for trains to Connolly.

Change at O'Connell Bridge for any of 25/a/b, 26, 66/a/b, 67, 79 or 145 buses to Heuston, or LUAS from Abbey stop.

By the time this is built the integrated smartcard will be up and running.

I agree with previous posters - it is not good to see DART Underground postponed.

Run_to_da_hills

BluntGuy wrote: »

Incoming government might shelf MN as well.

If they had any sense they would.

The only logical reason that I can see for MN is to feed that other white elephant, T2.

The Port tunnel is good enough for commuters reaching Dublin Airport and Swards from the city center.

An e80 Billion credit card bill from the IMF is a scary thing to have on our nation without going on a further spending spree.

CIE

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Can't believe they're going through with MN over DU. I thought everyone agreed that if it came down to it, DU was the better choice as it opens up the full potential of the existing heavy rail lines in the GDA

I see you actually believe the propaganda. It's a waste of money that won't help a single thing. How many DMUs that are not even close to halfway through their useful lives would they have scrapped for that project whose intent is to bring nobody into the city centre?

Was all the money to fill in the right of way for the two outer tracks at Pearse (instead of making them into leads for quadruple-tracking the Loop Line, or will all the crying about the "capacity constraints" echo forever) plus all the dough to do other ridiculous things like continually reduce the capacity at Connolly worth it by comparison? Imagine a Connolly with the capacity it had in the late 1970s, being able to host trains from the Kildare Line running through the Phoenix Park Tunnel. (Oh wait; they spent money to make that impossible. So now it's double spending to shrink Connolly plus induce demand for an Interconnector. What a brilliant piece of social engineering.)

At least the Luas link-up isn't going through, but that might just mean that we'll be ripping up the streets a few years after MN

Ripping up the streets? Thought Metro construction was going to be TBM instead of cut/cover? Not even a shred of consideration towards making a Swords-Cherrywood Metrowe...? :rolleyes:

loyatemu

Neworder79 wrote: »

Shocking decision, how will DU be built below an existing metro station? Dig up the green for another 5 years?

I assume they'll build the DU station at the same time as the MN station and then tunnel into it at a later date... (well, I actually assume neither of them will be built as it will become blatantly clear in 6 months time we can't afford MN either)

Cool Mo D

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Can't believe they're going through with MN over DU. I thought everyone agreed that if it came down to it, DU was the better choice as it opens up the full potential of the existing heavy rail lines in the GDA. Gutted, absolutely gutted. At least the Luas link-up isn;t going through, but that might just mean that we'll be ripping up the streets a few years after MN.

DART Underground could never go ahead of the metro for the simple reason that it is 2 years behind in the planning process.

Anyway, the four year plan is irrelevant, as this Governemnt will be out the door soon, and a new plan will be written by another crowd.

ClovenHoof

So let me see this:

Interconnector dumped

Metro to built into a dead end

Everything else for Dublin is scrapped

Western Rail Corridor; Depends on how many torch lit parades though Mayo the clergy can organise...


YOUNG PEOPLE READING THIS - PLEASE EMIGRATE AND BURN YOUR IRISH POSSPORTS ONCE YOU ARE OUT OF THE COUNTRY - TELL NO ONE YOU ARE IRISH. RUN RUN RUN TO THE NEAREST AIRPORT OR FERRY TERMINAL AND NEVER RETURN!

ClovenHoof

Oliver1985 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1124/economy_transport.html

:eek::eek:

Can anyone confirm this story or is it just another crazy Irish hack on the sauce again lost in the hysteria of his own magical thinking?

Seems to me it is mention nowhere else. The RTE welfare case being the only source for this.

KC61

That is speculation by journalists based on the PSO grant paid to the CIE Group of companies being reduced - we will have to wait and see.

Any fare rises would have to be approved by the NTA/Department of Transport in any case.

ClovenHoof

KC61 wrote: »

That is speculation by journalists based on the PSO grant paid to the CIE Group of companies being reduced - we will have to wait and see.

Cheers so it is not dead at all. Just another Irish hack on the sauce making up pork pies once more.

KC61

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Cheers so it is not dead at all. Just another Irish hack on the sauce making up pork pies once more.

????

I was referring to the suggestion in that report that fares will rise.

ClovenHoof

KC61 wrote: »

????

I was referring to the suggestion in that report that fares will rise.

Yes but didn't the journalist extrapolate this to claim it meant the DU was binned?

KC61

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Yes but didn't the journalist extrapolate this to claim it meant the DU was binned?

Whether he did or didn't was irrelevant to my post - I was referring to the rise in fares as I thought you were!

Crossed wires!

robd

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Yes but didn't the journalist extrapolate this to claim it meant the DU was binned?

According to Dept Transport DU is not going ahead, at least not the tunnel part. What a farse.

See
http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=257

Much to my annoyance one Jackie Healy Rae appears to have secured his Tralee Bypass. I'm sure the 1,920 residents of Dingle will be delighted. What a country we live in. Wonder what the social-economic return on that one is? 0.01 !!!!

robd

The thing is. I don't agree with Metro North getting the nod ahead of Dart Underground. The benefits of Dart Underground are much clearer and greater. However I'll settle for it. The reality is the Dart Underground is no where near ready to proceed. Metro North is. If it starts now it will likely get done.

The Dart Underground people need to keep planning and getting all the bits done that they can. It's likely then, that the project will actually get done when we actually recover. Metro North will need it to join all those dots. If it was the other way round MN would be scrapped entirely.

dowlingm

It will be interesting to see if Dublin-Sligo/Castlebar/Galway/Killarney traffic increases because of the air PSOs not being renewed. Of course we'll have to depend on rumour from the answer because IE take the money but only produce ridership figures when they want to close a line.

Oliver1985

dowlingm wrote: »

It will be interesting to see if Dublin-Sligo/Castlebar/Galway/Killarney traffic increases because of the air PSOs not being renewed. Of course we'll have to depend on rumour from the answer because IE take the money but only produce ridership figures when they want to close a line.

How much more expensive will it be to fly then with the airports pso removed?:eek:

Chris_5339762

I'm really not sure which would be better.

DU would be great, but without Metro North, the big city center link is missing. Originally I thought that DU would be the better project to go for, but heres my thinking.

MN without DU = Fine
DU without MN = Not so good

DU connects Heuston to Stephens Green and Docklands. Its a commuter line without MN I think. It'll ferry people from Heuston into Stephens and the Docklands. However, it doesnt have that critical city center link. You cant get to O Connell Street and all the center of town with it.

MN has that utterly vital airport link. For that reason ALONE it will have a higher economic benefit I think - its more likely to pull companies into Dublin than DU would. It also has the Stephens Green - Connolly linkup. That city center part will be used far more than most people think. It links the two Luas lines, something which should have been done from the start and that the now postponed BXD would do. It also opens up a whole new part of Dublin to public transport (Swords etc).

Dont get me wrong, I still hope DU gets built eventually. It links the whole system together. But as for 'have one but not the other', I think MN wins it. Having DU without MN just wouldnt work properly. Having MN without DU is preferable for now.

CIE

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Cheers so it is not dead at all. Just another Irish hack on the sauce making up pork pies once more

Who said it was dead? Postponed does not mean cancelled.

oliver1985 wrote: »

How much more expensive will it be to fly then with the airports pso removed?

Since the "O" in PSO stands for "obligation", that means that nobody will be forced to fly there. If there's a demand, flights will continue, but for a non-subsidised rate.

BenShermin

Ah who needs Dart Underground anyway, we have the 145:cool:.

schemingbohemia

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I'm really not sure which would be better.

DU would be great, but without Metro North, the big city center link is missing. Originally I thought that DU would be the better project to go for, but heres my thinking.

MN without DU = Fine
DU without MN = Not so good

DU connects Heuston to Stephens Green and Docklands. Its a commuter line without MN I think. It'll ferry people from Heuston into Stephens and the Docklands. However, it doesnt have that critical city center link. You cant get to O Connell Street and all the center of town with it.

MN has that utterly vital airport link. For that reason ALONE it will have a higher economic benefit I think - its more likely to pull companies into Dublin than DU would. It also has the Stephens Green - Connolly linkup. That city center part will be used far more than most people think. It links the two Luas lines, something which should have been done from the start and that the now postponed BXD would do. It also opens up a whole new part of Dublin to public transport (Swords etc).

Dont get me wrong, I still hope DU gets built eventually. It links the whole system together. But as for 'have one but not the other', I think MN wins it. Having DU without MN just wouldnt work properly. Having MN without DU is preferable for now.

You're missing the most vital part of DU in that it allows for a second DART line! Electrifying Maynooth and extending electrification to Drogheda (or Balbriggan initially) and Hazelhatch provides for many more services on both lines as the congestion in Connolly is avoided, it's a game changer that has been lost for 5 years (at least).

CIE

schemingbohemia wrote: »

You're missing the most vital part of DU in that it allows for a second DART line! Electrifying Maynooth and extending electrification to Drogheda (or Balbriggan initially) and Hazelhatch provides for many more services on both lines as the congestion in Connolly is avoided, it's a game changer that has been lost for 5 years (at least).

Hilarious that people still believe that. Nothing like going from Balbriggan to nowhere near the city centre, and requiring a transfer to boot. (There were even people suggesting turning the Howth branch into a shuttle at one point! but such people also agreed with the notion of de-electrifying Bray-Greystones...anyone remember that one?)

So where will all the DMUs that IE's bought over the recent years go? The fleet is between 8 and 17 years old, with an average age overall of 11.8 years (excluding the 22000-class), which makes replacing them en-masse with EMUs a terrible and inexcuseable waste of money to the taxpayer. (That's a total of 180 cars, from 2600 through 2900 classes.)

There wouldn't be "congestion at Connolly" if the crossovers were properly upgraded and they didn't shrink platform capacity continuously, as well. (And does anyone remember the run-around track that used to be by Platform 7? CIE didn't think to keep it and build a Platform 8 next to it.)

Losty Dublin

CIE wrote: »

Hilarious that people still believe that. Nothing like going from Balbriggan to nowhere near the city centre, and requiring a transfer to boot. (There were even people suggesting turning the Howth branch into a shuttle at one point! but such people also agreed with the notion of de-electrifying Bray-Greystones...anyone remember that one?)

Most people would consider a service linking the northern commuter line on a direct to Spencer Dock, (Luas) Pearse/Merrion Square (Dart South and west), St. Stephens Green (Metro and Luas), Christchurch, Heuston (Luas and mainline south/west trains), Inchicore, Parkwest, Clondalkin (Metro) and Adamstown to be a considerable improvement on the current line. This is excluding the expansion to Bray/Greystones to Maynooth services.

CIE wrote: »

So where will all the DMUs that IE's bought over the recent years go? The fleet is between 8 and 17 years old, with an average age overall of 11.8 years (excluding the 22000-class), which makes replacing them en-masse with EMUs a terrible and inexcuseable waste of money to the taxpayer. (That's a total of 180 cars, from 2600 through 2900 classes.)

I'd not worry about the DMU's for now. By 2020 the 2600 class DMUs will be life expired, 2700 and 2800 class will be getting on and 29000 will be due mid life overhaul and refurbishment. They could be easily cascaded to Cobh/Tralee/Limerick/Ballina/Waterford/Gorey/Longford/Mullingar services but it is a long time away and even so, they will need to phased out in time.

CIE wrote: »

There wouldn't be "congestion at Connolly" if the crossovers were properly upgraded and they didn't shrink platform capacity continuously, as well. (And does anyone remember the run-around track that used to be by Platform 7? CIE didn't think to keep it and build a Platform 8 next to it.)

The crossovers are due for renewal when the resignalling works are carried out which is work that has been funded as part of DART underground pre works. Yeah, it's been long in the waiting but it will bear fruit when done.

There isn't any room for a platform 8 alongside platform 7.

Jehuty42

(There were even people suggesting turning the Howth branch into a shuttle at one point! but such people also agreed with the notion of de-electrifying Bray-Greystones...anyone remember that one?)

What's wrong with either one of those suggestions? The Greystones extension slows down the network massively and was built because of political interference. The Howth branch might be better served by an (EMU) shuttle- that would reduce congestion on the Northern Line.

CIE

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Most people would consider a service linking the northern commuter line on a direct to Spencer Dock, (Luas) Pearse/Merrion Square (Dart South and west), St. Stephens Green (Metro and Luas), Christchurch, Heuston (Luas and mainline south/west trains), Inchicore, Parkwest, Clondalkin (Metro) and Adamstown to be a considerable improvement on the current line. This is excluding the expansion to Bray/Greystones to Maynooth services

Bray to Dublin cannot be expanded any more than they currently are without quad-tracking the DSER.

All destinations from the north will require a transfer to get closer to the city centre. Nobody wants that.

Furthermore, calling for this waste of a project excuses the wasteful spending done to shrink the capacity of Connolly and Pearse. Spending on top of spending to solve nothing and create more problems.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I'd not worry about the DMU's for now. By 2020 the 2600 class DMUs will be life expired, 2700 and 2800 class will be getting on and 29000 will be due mid life overhaul and refurbishment. They could be easily cascaded to Cobh/Tralee/Limerick/Ballina/Waterford/Gorey/Longford/Mullingar services but it is a long time away and even so, they will need to phased out in time

So the 2600-class is "life-expired" in a mere 27 years? That's more public waste. They should last at least ten years longer than that. What about the newer DMUs? And who's to say that IE won't be trying to close more main lines in the next ten years anyway, i.e. if the public doesn't stop them?

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The crossovers are due for renewal when the resignalling works are carried out which is work that has been funded as part of DART underground pre works. Yeah, it's been long in the waiting but it will bear fruit when done

It would have "borne fruit" if they had done it years ago like they should have. But instead, they want to create the illusion of "capacity constraints at Connolly" so they can induce unnecessary spending.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

There isn't any room for a platform 8 alongside platform 7

I did not say "alongside Platform 7" anyhow. Underneath the current Platform 7 is former track-bed; the current track alongside the expanded Platform 7 is in the space occupied by the former run-around track. Instead of building a Platform 8 (and removing a moribund turntable that last served a purpose only when the suburban tank steam engines ran), CIE chose to tear out a track and widen Platform 7 to be adjacent to the run-around track. That's in addition to the other follies over the years (making the tracks adjacent to Platforms 3 and 4 shorter, getting rid of the track by the inset Platform 4 years before that, and so on)...and they still can't build a connecting track between Docklands and the PPT at Glasnevin Junction for fear that it might actually work, go figure...

jehuty42 wrote: »

me wrote: »

There were even people suggesting turning the Howth branch into a shuttle at one point! but such people also agreed with the notion of de-electrifying Bray-Greystones...anyone remember that one?

What's wrong with either one of those suggestions? The Greystones extension slows down the network massively and was built because of political interference. The Howth branch might be better served by an (EMU) shuttle- that would reduce congestion on the Northern Line

Great way to excuse incompetence. Funny how the network gets slowed down only now but not in the past when more people relied on the train? There were loads of suburban trains that got turned in Greystones in the past and the network wasn't "slowed down". South of Greystones, there are a mere seven inbound trains and six outbound per weekday (three each way on Sunday), so how can the network be "slowed down" except through incompetence?

Turning the Howth branch into a shuttle will be its demise. Ridership will go down due to turning a one-seat ride into two and forcing people to jam onto Northern Line trains (that won't even go to Connolly anymore, so in reality it's a three-seat ride to reach the city centre under the DU scheme, and aren't they supposed to be increasing Northern Line service and thus creating just as much congestion if not more?); next we'll be hearing stories about how the route 31 bus is "faster than the DART, and direct as well" and undergoing a revival (and maybe they'll bring back the 30 to serve Howth via James Larkin Road and Clontarf Road or something), then IE will announce single-tracking the Howth Shuttle, then taking down the wires...see where this is going?

corktina

(And does anyone remember the run-around track that used to be by Platform 7? CIE didn't think to keep it and build a Platform 8 next to it.)
:eek:

Losty Dublin

CIE wrote: »

Bray to Dublin cannot be expanded any more than they currently are without quad-tracking the DSER.

All destinations from the north will require a transfer to get closer to the city centre. Nobody wants that.

One transfer which will be at one of the three city centre stations; that's not a lot to ask considering the journey options that will be opened up in time. There is the intention for some through trains to and from Bray via the northern line so transfers are not an issue; faster more reliable services than get you places are more in keeping with the traveling public. The resignalling and realignment of Connolly will not far off double train movements into and out of Connolly and allow trains on the Sligo line better movements as well as improving the sidings at the station which is essential, tunnel or no tunnel.

CIE wrote: »

Furthermore, calling for this waste of a project excuses the wasteful spending done to shrink the capacity of Connolly and Pearse. Spending on top of spending to solve nothing and create more problems.So the 2600-class is "life-expired" in a mere 27 years? That's more public waste. They should last at least ten years longer than that. What about the newer DMUs?

DMU's in theory have a shorter working life than locos for several reasons (engine wear, stress of bogies and vibration being the three main ones) but it's not to say that they can't last longer; the 2600 class have been reliable in traffic but they are nearing their envisaged retirement date when introduced in 1994. Most of the railcars currently in service are being overworked and it's due to good work by Irish rail mechanics on reliable machines that have not seen them cut short by breakdowns too much.

CIE wrote: »

And who's to say that IE won't be trying to close more main lines in the next ten years anyway, i.e. if the public doesn't stop them?It would have "borne fruit" if they had done it years ago like they should have.

The lines that are at most risk are Limerick Junction-Waterford and Ballybrophy-Limerick but it's ultimately up to Government decision if lines are to be closed or open. This year we saw the WRC, Middleton and Dunboyne reopen to traffic and a shortage of stock on Ballina and some Galway services so for now there is little stock free and little chance of any new orders in the mid term.

CIE wrote: »

But instead, they want to create the illusion of "capacity constraints at Connolly" so they can induce unnecessary spending.I did not say "alongside Platform 7" anyhow. Underneath the current Platform 7 is former track-bed; the current track alongside the expanded Platform 7 is in the space occupied by the former run-around track. Instead of building a Platform 8 (and removing a moribund turntable that last served a purpose only when the suburban tank steam engines ran), CIE chose to tear out a track and widen Platform 7 to be adjacent to the run-around track. That's in addition to the other follies over the years (making the tracks adjacent to Platforms 3 and 4 shorter, getting rid of the track by the inset Platform 4 years before that, and so on)...and they still can't build a connecting track between Docklands and the PPT at Glasnevin Junction for fear that it might actually work, go figure...

Platform 6/7 were widened in the early 80's for the DART and given the numbers which use it, it's well appreciated there. Platforms 3 and 4 are shorter because they don't accommodate trains with 14+ carriages as was common in the past and allowances for buffer space in the event of a crash; Heuston has a similar arrangement

In relation to Glasnevin Junction, relaying it would require the closure of the Sligo line, the PPT line and Docklands for several weeks with little benefit for commuters time wise; remember that Docklands station is no more handier for most of Dublin city centre than Luas linked Heuston is. Oh and the cost of points is enormous

Jehuty42

CIE wrote: »

CIE chose to tear out a track and widen Platform 7 to be adjacent to the run-around track. That's in addition to the other follies over the years (making the tracks adjacent to Platforms 3 and 4 shorter, getting rid of the track by the inset Platform 4 years before that, and so on)

That was the right choice, runaround track is worthless nowadays. Even if that track remained, there would be nowhere to put a platform on the north side of that runaround loop. In case you haven't noticed, at peak times the island between 6 and 7 is extremely full, to the point of people almost being pushed off it. Widening and lengthening the island is a much better idea that retaining track that can't be used for anything but runaround and stabling.

Platforms 3 and 4 are both perfectly long. I suspect that the inset platform was removed for not being long enough given the DART scheme coming online. There is more than adequate terminating space at Connolly, it's the lack of through paths that are the problem.

Also, all that happened at Pearse was the removal of terminating bays. By your own admission, Pearse is apparently not in the CC, so who would want to end their journey there? Seems as though Irish Rail actually agreed with you on that point:rolleyes:

CIE wrote: »

There were loads of suburban trains that got turned in Greystones in the past and the network wasn't "slowed down". South of Greystones, there are a mere seven inbound trains and six outbound per weekday (three each way on Sunday), so how can the network be "slowed down" except through incompetence?

There wasn't a 15/30 minute DART timetable in effect then. The current service to Greystones requires the single line section from Bray to Greystones to be occupied virtually all day. The problem is that any delay to a train getting to Greystones, turning around, and returning, causes knock on delays to other Greystone-bound and -from trains, in addition to anything trying to go South or come from the South. The solution would be to double-track the line, which is almost impossible given the geography, or stop trying to impose a high frequency timetable on a single track line.

In relation to your other points, changing trains is a fact of life in commuting anywhere. You can't have direct trains to everywhere, and we don't at the minute anyway. Why don't we have a service Drogheda->Connolly->Maynooth? Alleviate the injustice of having to change at Connolly:rolleyes: