How much did FF know in advance?

Doesitmatter?

First off, my apologies if this thread is in the wrong place. Is it just me or does anyone else feel that FF knew and have known for the past 18 months that outside help would be needed and have deliberately delayed and stalled to prevent outsiders (and us) really seeing what was going on. I feel they've spent that time covering their tracks and destroying paper trails and getting their own ducks in a row before walking out the door with the last 6 pack under their arm?
If there is even a hint of wrongdoing they should all be arrested on suspicion of treason for the damage they have done to our nation.
I would be delighted to welcome a new European style govt after the behaviour of our politicians (and I include all parties in that) over the last few decades.
FG need not think they can walk in and carry on as normal either. I've just finished reading a book about Dublin spanning the last 100 years and it has the same old names popping up in politics in that 100 years, we need to break these political dynasties now!

hobochris

I think after they are gone, and investigation should be undertaken and any wrong doing should be put forward the dpp for prosecution a strong message needs to be sent to any would be chancer's who think about entering politics to milk the system for personal benefit.

Monty Burnz

I think there isn't a chance in a million that the DPP will investigate anything like this - which is deeply worrying. I'm not saying that Cowen and Comical Lenny were definitely acting to protect a tiny elite when they guaranteed the banks, but it's certainly possible - while an investigation into it is more or less impossible.

paddy462

Fianna Fail are a bunch of gangsters and cowboys. There claim to the the Republican party is a joke. There is only one republlican party. The country also needs a new Liberal Democratic Party. One with appeal for both Fine Gael and Fianna Fail voters.

Colm R

Regarding an investigation, I've been saying it for a while. It will do absolutely nothing to resolve the situation. However we as a nation will never move on from this until certain bankers, politicans and civil servants go to jail.

And if this does not happen, then we can never be sure if something like this will happen again.

jdivision

Longer they stayed in power the higher their pensions as ministers. QED. Yes they knew. They also knew what they were causing. But their sole purpose was to remain in power so it worked. In the end we can only blame ourselves.

LostinBlanch

Colm R wrote: »

Regarding an investigation, I've been saying it for a while. It will do absolutely nothing to resolve the situation. However we as a nation will never move on from this until certain bankers, politicans and civil servants go to jail.

And if this does not happen, then we can never be sure if something like this will happen again.

Absolutely, I agree 100%, otherwise we will be doomed to suffer this again in 20 or 30 years time.

Dannyboy83

It's plausible that this government genuinely believed their strategy would work.

Occam's razor says this catastrophe is primarily the result of incompetence.

flutered

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

It's plausible that this government genuinely believed their strategy would work.

Occam's razor says this catastrophe is primarily the result of incompetence.

the damage done could not be done by incompetence alone, bad weed possibly, one needs to say POWER removed whatever resemblence of scruples and common sense they had left.

Manach

If FF is investigated by the DPP, they might claim political harassment.
My understanding is that the DPP is controlled by the attorney-general, who is the government's legal representative. So by allowing such an investigation of the former government, it could be made out to be a purely political move on their part. An independent investigation could avoid that, but would likely cost much more money to set-up.

Cavehill Red

It's time people started going on trial.

It's what, 15 months or more since the Garda investigation into Anglo began?

How long has Bertie Ahern been sucking up a wage from the Dail even though he's NOT TAX COMPLIANT and doesn't even attend?

Send the CAB in after all the banksters immediately. Let's see some people in the dock on corruption charges. You might be surprised who they start naming when you take their houses and yachts away and threaten to end their days in Mountjoy.

Sand

Youd be amazed at how human beings can convince themselves to ignore realities, look at Ireland over the past 10 years. Truly Orwellian group think can occur in an adversarial political enviroment.

Quite simply, Fianna Fail can honestly claim that they thought they knew what they were doing. No matter how blatant the evidence that their policies were disastrous (bank guarantee, NAMA, Croke Park, etc) they have always refused to even engage in an honest examination of possible solutions.

Note that Lenny, Cowen and all the usual suspects are very, very found of the phrase "I dont accept that" in response to any question that challenges them to examine their decisions or thinking. By saying "I dont accept that" they simply close down the thought process and refuse to even acknowledge the invitation to discuss or examine their decisions. Its much like the old favourite "There is no alternative!" with regards to NAMA which was simply run through without any thought or consideration with bullheaded stubborness.

So even despite an ever growing chorus of commentators and international voices pleading with them to row back on their policies and reconsider their decisions, they could still honestly claim they thought they knew what they were doing because they never ever entered into an honest discussion or examination of the options open to them which would highlight all the problems with their policies, and potentially better solutions which could have been chosen.

meglome

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

It's plausible that this government genuinely believed their strategy would work.

Occam's razor says this catastrophe is primarily the result of incompetence.

Yeah I agree. Given how inept they are I wouldn't get all conspiracy theory on this.

Liam Byrne

meglome wrote: »

Yeah I agree. Given how inept they are I wouldn't get all conspiracy theory on this.

No-one's THAT inept and incompetent and deluded, though.....are they ?

Laminations

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

It's plausible that this government genuinely believed their strategy would work.

Occam's razor says this catastrophe is primarily the result of incompetence.

Thats Hanlons razor or Clarks Law. I'd settle for any razor to be taken to the throats of FF. When considering that rotten party, Murphys Law also comes in to play, and regards the bailout of the banks, they should have paid more heed to Sturgeons Law before touching the loans. Right now with FF still at the helm we are testing quite well the premise of Finagles Law.

And finally Laminations Law 'Rats desert a sinking ship, but treacherous rats flock to FF'

EDIT: I'll work on that, not quite punchy enough yet

PeterIanStaker

Of course they knew. They're comparable to the Vatican when it comes to denying wrongdoing, after all where do you think they learned it?

kaiser sauze

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

It's plausible that this government genuinely believed their strategy would work.

Occam's razor says this catastrophe is primarily the result of incompetence.

Fianna Fáil truly believed they could get through this with the methods they applied.

They planned to ride it out until 2012, call an election and get back in on the cusp of the recovery.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is not aware of how they operate.

The fact that the EU are here means the game is up, they can't paint over that crack.

Raging_Ninja

Cavehill Red wrote: »

It's time people started going on trial.

It's what, 15 months or more since the Garda investigation into Anglo began?

The Gardaí have never investigated anything on this scale before. The CAB have only investigated piddling stuff of a ten thousand here and half a million there; not five billion here and there and there and there and there and there and there and there.

Second, what happened with Anglo Irish Bank is different to what happened with Bernie Madoff. He simply pulled off a pyramid scheme.

Sure the Gardaí could have gone off half-cocked a year ago, like a lot of people here want them to, but the case would more than likely have fallen apart in the courts.

I am not calling the Gardaí incompetent or anything, but this is entirely new to them and they NEED to get it right.

Doesitmatter?

That is not the title I put on this thread, I don't think the "modded" title conveys the seriousness of FF's behaviour and the rage being felt by the citizens of this country.

Drumpot

I understand that its not popular to try to debate this question rationally, but hey, lets try and see if its possible. To save people the bother, this is a populist FF rant and is not an attempt to debate what happened objetively! ! :rolleyes:

There was no universal agreement on what exactly should be done by our government in 2008. People can quote certain economists and this guy here who said we should never of done what we did, but there was no 100% agreement because any decision made was going to be a gamble on any level. This was because every decision that could be made had huge downfalls and there was no guarantee at that time that any decision made would of worked.

At the time FF decisions were applauded externally and most of their decisions were made by information provided by bankers and their regulator whose job was to police the banks. Now, what is odd is that whenever we ask Labour for a clear budget, they say they are not privy to the figures so they cannot properly suggest an alternative. However, when they dont even have the innacurate figures provided to the government by the bankers, they still make differant recommendations to what the government actually do. Hmm Funny that .

Subsequently, we now have people saying "they shouldnt of setup NAMA". This appears to be true and in hindsight, we all know the answer to the riddle. However , what is undeniable is that the reason we are getting this new bailout is down to the lack of uncertainty about how much of a hole is actually in our banks. The reason we are in this mess is because our banks lied to our government and our government made bad decisions and bad announcements based on information provided to them by their own regulator, their own advisors and these bankers. If anything Cowen's biggest crime was not properly penalising the people who lied to us all and forced our government into making the calamotous decisions that have us at this juncture.

At this stage people are going to get their percieved baddy. . The man who's biggest crimes were probabley:

• Trusting his regulator - Whats the point in having high paid public servants in these positions if they advise poorly ?
• Trusting the banks - Indeed this is no differant to a majority of the rest of the world. This doesnt excuse their reluctance to come down harder on the banks. This was his single biggest mistake. The fact that I dont believe any parties would of done things differantly is no consolation.
• Trusting the EU - Beware of wolves in sheeps clothing is all I will say. At this stage I dont even know who to believe.
• Trusting general consencus - There were of course small pockets of dissent against FF policys regarding property, but these were the exceptions.
• Trusting their own hype - Pensioners, social welfare recipients, public servants, private sector workers on lower taxes adored their policies. The very fact that opposition parties offered even greater sweeties shows that people either got what they wanted or they wanted more. Saving for a rainy day was never proposed by any party in any meaningful way (certainly dont remember ANY canvassers calling to my door and suggesting we start saving! - Perhaps, sutton, ashbourne and Bettystown were the only area's in Ireland that had populist opposition party members promising the world for my vote).

I could go on but I have just about worn out my populist FF rant that couldnt possibly challenge conventional wisdom that states that there is one villian to rule them all . .