Is there any serious alternative to Fianna Fáil?

Rebelheart

So, be realistic: what party is there that is better than Fianna Fáil?

I'm here with the auld fella and we're just going over centuries of Irish history/ contemporary politics as is the norm. We were talking about the Green's threat today and himself quipped: "but sure who else is there?"

There was no explaining needed. I just nodded in a "you're right" mode.

The Blueshirts: well, the thought of another Fine Gael leader, as the leader of the government of Ireland, prostrating himself in front of another member of the British royal family saying "you embody all that we aspire to be" has ruled that party out of my voting preferences for eternity. To think that Bruton's protegé, Brian Hayes, is currently trying to be the next Minister for Education & Science is terrifying given this political disposition. You don't have to go back to Ballyseedy to not like those people.

Labour: Personally, I'd have few problems giving Labour my first preference. I have the height of respect for Michael D., and I particularly love that he annoys all those Sunday Independent-reading lower socio-economic types. I also love that it was Michael D., and not those hypocritical verbal republicans in Fianna Fáil, who established TnaG/TG4 in 1997. Nevertheless, I'd probably give my vote to the former Labour TD Brian Fitzgerald who has done phenomenal work on the ground in Meath as an independent. My problem with Labour is that I would be physically sick if Brian Hayes ended up as Minister for Education in a Labour-Fine Gael coalition. I want to punish Fianna Fáil, but long-term I'd prefer a Labour-Fianna Fáil party, in that order. Having anybody connected with Bruton in an Irish government is, to say the least, problematic.

Sinn Féin: Ever since Seán MacManus of Sinn Féin became "Lord Mayor" of Sligo and appeared with the British crown engraved on the mayoral arms of Sligo, I've not been too keen on this incarnation of Sinn Féin. They seem like slow Fianna Fáilers - the only thing going for them is that the likes of Independent Newspapers, Harris, Dudley Edwards and all that sort are against them. If they put it as part of their policy to abolish all those colonial wigs from Irish courtrooms, and fine all those members of the legal profession who used those colonial titles (McDowell's instruction on this issue is a joke as long as people like Paul Carney remain judges in courtrooms of this republic) they might have some merit to their single issue. But they've no policy on such issues, despite their history. It's like they're just taking the soup in order to get on within this system. You could have done that in 1972. Having said that, I'd image some Sinn Féin person will get a preference.

Independents: I usually vote for them. But I don't want any of them holding up this system for my constituency issues à la Healy-Rea. I'm completely in favour of ending PR-STV and ending the political nepotism and localism that is a product of it.

So, as a real alternative to Fianna Fáil, who is there?

Zynks

Maybe the question should be what is the alternative to this political system that can produce a decent political choice?

Laminations

Yeah the woman next door was wondering something similar. You see her husband beats her something awful, has done for years but she has always gone back. Now though she is thinking of leaving and looking at alternatives. Maybe another man won't earn as much, maybe another man will be work shy, god sure maybe all men are the same and whoever she chooses will just beat her anyway. So why not just stay with the asshole abuser who has no respect for her because he knows she'll never leave.

Obviously my views on these kinds of threads are clear - they are pointless

meglome

Independents, Greens and Fine Gael at last election. Not sure for this one. Probably Fine Gael but it remains to be seen. If they make me believe they'll do what's necessary then that will decide it. Though I'm hoping for some candidates, ala George Lee, that are just in to try fix up the mess and get out or a new party with different attitudes.

And seriously this Blueshirts stuff is really old. If you're really basing your decision on what a party did in the 1940's or because an ex-leader played nice with the Saxe-Coburgs I don't really know what to say.

Inverse to the power of one!

Suffice to say there is a serious need for a new party free from the past and it's insufferable ideologies.

But rather then get in to that, I'd just like to address one thing.

The "but sure who else is there?" frame of thought is a dangerous one to say the least, it automatically handicaps the opposition and gives rise to a negative frame of reference even if it is not deserved.

Believe me, I have no time for Kenny, nor do I think much of Labour and their comfortable little rabble of wealthy socialists, BUT there is this to consider:

• A more honest government.
• Individual members of the two parties will come to the fore as being good at what they do(No different to FF's record)
• Let us at least get to a point where our judgement on the job they do is on the basis of what they actually have done and not conjecture on how much worse they may be then FF.

FF have made a slaughter in all elections since the 90's on "but sure who else is there?" ideology, and where has it got us as a nation, as a society?

Imagine if that was the attitude to the church after the abuse scandals!
We'd still be living with their order, power, and the cover ups that it all entailed.

Change is good and sometimes it involves choosing the unknown over that which has failed. Live with it.

imme

OP, are you being serious with this thread.
You´re asking is there any serious alternative to a party that through ignorance, arrogance and fecklessness has bankrupted the country?

Can you be for real?:eek:

keithcan

What I'm wondering is who were all those now-invisible people who voted FF to become the largest party in the State in the last election, and the one before that, and the one before that, and the one before that, etc.? We have some good politicians and many poor ones - and lots in between - because that reflects the seriousness of purpose and level of intelligence brought to the voting process by us, the Irish people. We get what we deserve to get. The next Govt may be somewhet more focussed because the electorate probably will be when it comes to the election, having been stung into a more serious consideration of the issues by the gravity of our situation. But if we get out of this recession, we'll go back to half-arsery, with FF probably back as the biggest party. FF represent short-termism, selfish thinking, etc. And that's what a significant amount of the electorate have wanted. And will probably go back to in due course.

Awful_Bliss

OP, it's like saying there was no alternative to the Nazis or Chairman Mao in their respective countries.

Say what you like about the opposition. I didn't like the George Lee & leadership debacle in FG nor do I like the sit on the fence attitude of Labour but had they been in power I doubt they'd have made devastating and appalling policies as FF did and p*ss away our hard earned money on Garda pulse systems, electronic voting machines, numerous roads, salaries, jets, spires, expenses.....I could go on.

Sand

Im afraid Rebel, not even Michael Collins would live up to your expectations that Irish politicians ought to be desperately insecure with regards to the British.

bleg

Run for election yourself.

Terry

I'm going to vote for the person I believe to be the best candidate regardless of party affiliation.
How about you, OP?

Shea O'Meara

Rebelheart wrote: »

So, be realistic: what party is there that is better than Fianna Fáil?

Well your reasons for not wishing to vote for the other parties pale in comparrison to the FFail, 'Me, party, country' mantra, which is the scurge of Ireland and an insult to it's people. So weighing up based on your own examples, any party, even a donkey in a field is a better option than FFail. As least the donkey couldn't care less, where FFail actively suit themselves.

Wolfe Tone

Sinn Féin: Ever since Seán MacManus of Sinn Féin became "Lord Mayor" of Sligo and appeared with the British crown engraved on the mayoral arms of Sligo, I've not been too keen on this incarnation of Sinn Féin. They seem like slow Fianna Fáilers - the only thing going for them is that the likes of Independent Newspapers, Harris, Dudley Edwards and all that sort are against them. If they put it as part of their policy to abolish all those colonial wigs from Irish courtrooms, and fine all those members of the legal profession who used those colonial titles (McDowell's instruction on this issue is a joke as long as people like Paul Carney remain judges in courtrooms of this republic) they might have some merit to their single issue. But they've no policy on such issues, despite their history. It's like they're just taking the soup in order to get on within this system. You could have done that in 1972. Having said that, I'd image some Sinn Féin person will get a preference.

I am nearly a 100% sure that those are purely optional, for barristers anyway.

Rebelheart

imme wrote: »

OP, are you being serious with this thread.
You´re asking is there any serious alternative to a party that through ignorance, arrogance and fecklessness has bankrupted the country?

Can you be for real?:eek:

Yes, I am being real. I won't be voting for Fianna Fáil. But I'm wholly unimpressed at the conservatism of all its opponents in terms of their solutions to this extraordinary position which our state is in.

It's not as if there are any parties in this country setting the nation alight with ideas which get to the systemic crux of the problem - the electoral system; the party system; bicameralism; localism; clientalism; unforgivable "expenses"; national legislators depending on doing local councillor work to be re-elected; the parliament being demeaned by lunatics being appointed to it because they defended the Taoiseach of the day on prime time television; etc.

Anybody - anybody - here who thinks Fine Gael and Labour are going to change Irish political life and the body politic is fundamentally misguided. I'm not into voting for a change of the guard, for voting for another shower of politicians to use all the patronage system used by this current government to reward their own supporters. Where's the advancement there? And I'm not going down the path of deluding myself in terms of my expectations of any government.

This country needs reform on such a deep level that it can rightly be called a revolution. As somebody said the other night: the 1st republic is dead; we have to go back to the books and create a 2nd republic. There is a lot to that. And more people need to start thinking along such a radical line.

Sand

It's not as if there are any parties in this country setting the nation alight with ideas which get to the systemic crux of the problem - the electoral system; the party system; bicameralism; localism; clientalism; unforgivable "expenses"; national legislators depending on doing local councillor work to be re-elected; the parliament being demeaned by lunatics being appointed to it because they defended the Taoiseach of the day on prime time television; etc.

Fine Gael is actually putting forward policies regarding this. Its slow going, and I dont agree with all of them, but its not true to say there arent parties looking at the systematic issues.

You wouldnt notice this though if you just dismiss them as "Blueshirts" and so obsessed over John Bruton welcoming a British dignitary that you wont give a vote to Labour for fear they might support Brian Hayes in the Education portfolio.

imme

Rebelheart wrote: »

Yes, I am being real. I won't be voting for Fianna Fáil. But I'm wholly unimpressed at the conservatism of all its opponents in terms of their solutions to this extraordinary position which our state is in.

It's not as if there are any parties in this country setting the nation alight with ideas which get to the systemic crux of the problem - the electoral system; the party system; bicameralism; localism; clientalism; unforgivable "expenses"; national legislators depending on doing local councillor work to be re-elected; the parliament being demeaned by lunatics being appointed to it because they defended the Taoiseach of the day on prime time television; etc.

Anybody - anybody - here who thinks Fine Gael and Labour are going to change Irish political life and the body politic is fundamentally misguided. I'm not into voting for a change of the guard, for voting for another shower of politicians to use all the patronage system used by this current government to reward their own supporters. Where's the advancement there? And I'm not going down the path of deluding myself in terms of my expectations of any government.

This country needs reform on such a deep level that it can rightly be called a revolution. As somebody said the other night: the 1st republic is dead; we have to go back to the books and create a 2nd republic. There is a lot to that. And more people need to start thinking along such a radical line.

¨conservatism of it´s opponents¨? did FF ever show anything but conservatism themselves?

you seem to be still clinging onto respsct for FF, even the title, setting them up as permanent government almost.

There are alternatives.

Where do you see radicalism that you want coming from? Are you going to get involved?

The dual mandate has been gone for years you know. (TD`s being councillors)

Rebelheart

Sand wrote: »

Im afraid Rebel, not even Michael Collins would live up to your expectations that Irish politicians ought to be desperately insecure with regards to the British.

:rolleyes: So you think Bruton was not being desperately insecure when he fell over himself in May 1995 - excerpt here - when Cathal Saxe-Coburg-Gotha visited Dublin?

Oddly enough, he didn't fawn over any other foreign visitor as he did on that night. You're even out of touch with the British media in thinking his genuflections were a sign of confidence. To even equate Bruton, that avowed Redmondite and apologist for the massacres in WWI (who supposedly opposes violence to achieve a political aim!), with Michael Collins and his tradition is the historical distortion in your post. So wrong.

Sand

So you think Bruton was not being desperately insecure when he fell over himself in May 1995 - excerpt here - when Cathal Saxe-Coburg-Gotha visited Dublin?

Oddly enough, he didn't fawn over any other foreign visitor as he did on that night. You're even out of touch with the British media in thinking his genuflections were a sign of confidence. To even equate Bruton, that avowed Redmondite and apologist for the massacres in WWI (who supposedly opposes violence to achieve a political aim!), with Michael Collins and his tradition is the historical distortion in your post. So wrong.

It troubled me greatly. Then I got over it at some point in the last 15 years.

Rebelheart

imme wrote: »

¨conservatism of it´s opponents¨? did FF ever show anything but conservatism themselves?

you seem to be still clinging onto respsct for FF, even the title, setting them up as permanent government almost.

There are alternatives.

Well, since about 1939, they've shown very little other than conservatism, I'll grant you that. But that's not the point, clearly: the other parties are professing to provide an alternative but they don't have the courage to propose the radical alternatives which are essential to change the system which currently exists.

imme wrote: »

Where do you see radicalism that you want coming from?

In all of the areas I mentioned in the earlier post, particularly in separating local constituency work from legislative work, with TDs only doing the latter and not depending on the former to remain in power - we'll keep getting the Healy-Reas of this world until this changes. Similarly, the terms a politician can serve in office should be limited and in particular the creation of dynastic cults like the Lenihan/ORourke one has to be removed. I don't want an aristocracy in this republic. Right across the EU Commission senior civil servants have time limits on their positions in each department as a means to prevent corruption, although very few people are aware of this. We should have something like this for Irish politicians.

imme wrote: »

The dual mandate has been gone for years you know. (TD`s being councillors)

TDs doing councillors' work is far, far from gone. It is the norm. Indeed, even those complete wasters, Senators, are doing it. Where are these radical alternatives? I don't mean "Where are these people who are eager to fill the positions currently occupied by Fianna Fáil?" That thinking is not going to change anything.

kaiser sauze

I have not read the thread so apologies if this has been said already.

The OP is clearly a Fianna Fáiler trying to find a reason to stroke his blood on another section of the voting paper than FF.

I find his reference to The Blueshirts, instead of simply saying Fine Gael, comical. None of the others had to endure a pet name attached to them.

Oh, and OP, you forgot The Greens.

Rebelheart

Sand wrote: »

It troubled me greatly. Then I got over it at some point in the last 15 years.

That was a great achievement. God bless you.

J77

Rebelheart wrote: »

Yes, I am being real. I won't be voting for Fianna Fáil.

OP, would you place your your vote based primarily on party affiliation (or lack of) rather than which candidate you believe would do best in your constituency?

happy_man2010

Is there any other more credible reasons you might put forward for not voting for Fine Gael? Branding them 'Blueshirts' (a movement that briefly existed in the 1930s which served more as a means to preserve free speech than to promote any quasi-fascist ideology) and portraying the party as her majesty's loyal servants renders the argument for not supporting them somewhat disingenuous. Perhaps a more reasoned analysis of their current policies would be more appropriate.

Rebelheart

J77 wrote: »

OP, would you place your your vote based primarily on party affiliation (or lack of) rather than which candidate you believe would do best in your constituency?

Well, I've been voting for Independents/the Greens/Sinn Féin, with the order depending on my assessment of the transfers. I've used the STV side to let the relevant candidates know my concerns.

For Dáil Éireann I'd vote for the candidate who would put Irish society ahead of my constituency. I think that's the way it should be and I've no time for the Michael Lowry types. For the local elections, I always vote for the person who is most familiar with issues in my area and has worked hard to get recycling facilities and the like into the community. It doesn't really matter what party they are from at that level.

Oasis_Dublin

I couldn't see myself ever voting for Fianna Fáil.

Fine Gael have a poor leader (not as bad as some people are painting him and far better than biffo). Labour are all rhetoric and they will never be in the position to win the election themselves. The only way they could lead a government is in coalition with FF and if they did that they would be a laughing stock. I wish Sinn Féin all the best in their attempt to claim the position of the First Minister up north next May. I'd sooner vote for the Battery Road's finest, Ruairí Ó Brádaigh, than give Mary Lou McDonald or any other southern candidate a vote (not that Sinn Féin would waste their time running in my constituency!)

Rebelheart

happy_man2010 wrote: »

Is there any other more credible reasons you might put forward for not voting for Fine Gael? Branding them 'Blueshirts' (a movement that briefly existed in the 1930s which served more as a means to preserve free speech than to promote any quasi-fascist ideology) and portraying the party as her majesty's loyal servants renders the argument for not supporting them somewhat disingenuous. Perhaps a more reasoned analysis of their current policies would be more appropriate.

Fair enough - but it was Bruton who portrayed his party like that. Anyway, while I'd have no time for Hayes as a prospective Minister for Education for his views on a range of issues - from his steadfast defence of the €100 million subsidy given to private fee-paying schools (his cultural constituency) to his views on teaching Irish in schools - I have a huge amount of time for Kenny's proposal to abolish the Seanad. I just don't see how, the system being as it is, he's going to compensate his supporters for the loss of this avenue for self-promotion. It really sounds like an idea which will be ditched following the recommendations of a "committee" established after FG get into government.

Gay Mitchell's proposals a few years back to rename all those areas around Dublin docks after literary and cultural figures was also refreshing, as was his proposal to abolish the wearing of wigs in courtrooms.

Has Fine Gael any proposals to change the multiseat PR-STV electoral system and create a system which has professional lawmakers in Dáil Éireann rather than consummate funeral attenders and back scratchers of all varieties? As time goes on that electoral system is becoming more clearly a huge problem in the current political system.

Rebelheart

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I am nearly a 100% sure that those are purely optional, for barristers anyway.

Technically, they are because despite legislation banning wigs in 1994 the Bar Council held a vote on it and decided that they will decide the public culture of the courtrooms of this republic in contravention of the expressed wishes of the Dáil (see Dáil exchange from 1995 below). Furthermore, in reality it is well known that if a JC or SC walks into a courtroom where particular judges are sitting - oh, did I say Paul Carney? - without the wig, gown and addressing said judges deferentially with their full honours then this will not do their clients' case any good at all:
http://www.thepost.ie/archives/2007/0107/the-big-h-ensures-judges-make-their-presence-felt-20033.html

Here's part of an interesting exchange on the abolition of wigs in the Dáil on 29 November 1995:

"O'Dea: I welcome the provision to abolish the wearing of wigs, but it should be extended to other court apparel. Last year when we produced legislation to abolish wigs, the Bar Council took a vote on the matter. It is appalling that a senior branch of the legal profession should vote to see if it will obey legislation proposed by the Government and passed by this House. It is not within its right to disobey legislation passed in this House. The proposal in the Bill should be more radical and we should look at other court apparel. As Deputy O'Donoghue said, a black gown similar to that worn in the European Court of Justice would be sufficient. If we get rid of wigs, the other paraphernalia will probably remain.
This provision should also extend to judges. If barristers have to work naked from the neck up, I do not understand why judges should not do likewise. What is the position if a barrister, who must now leave aside the horsehair, is subsequently appointed to the Bench? Must he dust it off and put it on again? As Deputy O'Donoghue asked, what sanction will be imposed if someone comes into court wearing a wig? I presume he is in contempt of court. He will rely on someone wearing a wig to hold him in contempt. We will have fun with that section on Committee Stage."

K-9

FF have been in power for the last 13 years and are clearly out of touch and have wrecked the economy.

That should be enough reason for an alternative. When the IMF are in town, like Greece, being Socialist or left wing doesn't mean a whole lot.

StupidLikeAFox

Is the abolition of wearing wigs in court that big a deal? I mean seriously?

Also its going to be impossible to find a political party to match all of your needs. There are naturally going to be positives and negatives to every party's manifesto, so you'll just have to choose which one most closely matches what you think.

The original question was is there a serious alternative to Fianna Fail? The answer is yes. You seem to be basing a lot of FG critisisms on things that happened 15, 40 or 90 years ago. I'll be basing my decisions on what has happend roughly in the past 5 years and what is proposed for the next 5 years.

The founding of the state is an extremely important part of our history, less so some comments John Bruton made in 1995, but these have little or nothing to do with our present situation.

Dannyboy83

Find it bizzare that you attempt to disparage the current Fine Gael based on some event that occurred in 1923 - 87 years ago - i.e. so far back that even Fianna Fail did not exist...............(why are you concerned about this event? Do you plan to go live back in 1923 in a time machine?)

You continue to criticize heavily based on some event that happened 15 years ago, which is again entirely irrelevant to the party and policies of today.

Yet you seem to overlook the fact that Fianna Fail, barely 87 hours ago, brought the IMF to Ireland and have destroyed this country for generations to come. You blatantly ignore the fact that they lay waste to Ireland every 30 or so years.
You disparage other parties based on the events in ancient political history, yet obdurately ignore the overwhelming current evidence which proves Fianna Fail are not an option for even the most deluded voter.

And then you ask, is there any serious alternative to Fianna Fail?

Well here is your answer:
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing, over and over and over again, yet expecting a different result"

Liam Byrne

Rebelheart wrote: »

Yes, I am being real. I won't be voting for Fianna Fáil. But I'm wholly unimpressed at the conservatism of all its opponents in terms of their solutions to this extraordinary position which our state is in.

If that's the case, then your thread title doesn't make sense.

If you won't be voting for the Failures, then you already know what they do and stand for.

And so asking if there's a "serious alternative" to them implies - to me at least -that you're looking for another party that will do the same stroke-pulling and shennanigans.

If you're not going to vote for them then I doubt that's the case. In which case there are many, many alternatives to FF.

jmayo

Rebelheart wrote: »

So, be realistic: what party is there that is better than Fianna Fáil?

I'm here with the auld fella and we're just going over centuries of Irish history/ contemporary politics as is the norm. We were talking about the Green's threat today and himself quipped: "but sure who else is there?"

There was no explaining needed. I just nodded in a "you're right" mode.

The Blueshirts: well, the thought of another Fine Gael leader, as the leader of the government of Ireland, prostrating himself in front of another member of the British royal family saying "you embody all that we aspire to be" has ruled that party out of my voting preferences for eternity. To think that Bruton's protegé, Brian Hayes, is currently trying to be the next Minister for Education & Science is terrifying given this political disposition. You don't have to go back to Ballyseedy to not like those people.

Labour: Personally, I'd have few problems giving Labour my first preference. I have the height of respect for Michael D., and I particularly love that he annoys all those Sunday Independent-reading lower socio-economic types. I also love that it was Michael D., and not those hypocritical verbal republicans in Fianna Fáil, who established TnaG/TG4 in 1997. Nevertheless, I'd probably give my vote to the former Labour TD Brian Fitzgerald who has done phenomenal work on the ground in Meath as an independent. My problem with Labour is that I would be physically sick if Brian Hayes ended up as Minister for Education in a Labour-Fine Gael coalition. I want to punish Fianna Fáil, but long-term I'd prefer a Labour-Fianna Fáil party, in that order. Having anybody connected with Bruton in an Irish government is, to say the least, problematic.

Sinn Féin: Ever since Seán MacManus of Sinn Féin became "Lord Mayor" of Sligo and appeared with the British crown engraved on the mayoral arms of Sligo, I've not been too keen on this incarnation of Sinn Féin. They seem like slow Fianna Fáilers - the only thing going for them is that the likes of Independent Newspapers, Harris, Dudley Edwards and all that sort are against them. If they put it as part of their policy to abolish all those colonial wigs from Irish courtrooms, and fine all those members of the legal profession who used those colonial titles (McDowell's instruction on this issue is a joke as long as people like Paul Carney remain judges in courtrooms of this republic) they might have some merit to their single issue. But they've no policy on such issues, despite their history. It's like they're just taking the soup in order to get on within this system. You could have done that in 1972. Having said that, I'd image some Sinn Féin person will get a preference.

Independents: I usually vote for them. But I don't want any of them holding up this system for my constituency issues à la Healy-Rea. I'm completely in favour of ending PR-STV and ending the political nepotism and localism that is a product of it.

So, as a real alternative to Fianna Fáil, who is there?

Op you prefaced your thread as a question when in affect all you are doing is having a rant at FG from the off as you term them "blueshirts" and make references to Ballyseedy.
Then you have a go at SF because they obviously are no longer rabid enough anti British for you.

Than you claim you will vote Labour but you are so afraid of the "blueshirts" that you would rather see ff in government with Labour. :rolleyes:

Surely your true party would be éirígí or some such rabid Brit haters ?