Instruments through PA?

milkjunkie90

Ok, question...i play in a rock cover band...we play mostly pubs and occasionally clubs...currently all we only put vocals through the PA but most cover bands i see these days are putting guitars, bass, drums and everything else through the PA as well. I have found in my experience that this only muddys up everything in the PA. Is there any advantage to doing this or is it better to leave just vocals through the PA?

goblin59

if its muddying up then you need to straighten out the mix more.
have you got everything at full? or do you mix each instrument in separately

artvandulet

It depends on the venue and it depends on the PA. You need a suitably powerful PA to be able to amplify the guitars and drums and still maintain a good vocal on top of that. You will also require more outboard gear, compression and maybe gates. You would need more monitors then too, which means more amps and more bands of graphic eq. Obviously, you need enough channels on your desk also.
Add to that, the extra mics and cabling and its a fairly sizeable increase in gear, and so, setup time.

Are you playing venues big enough to need this?

Mikeydb

artvandulet wrote: »

It depends on the venue and it depends on the PA. You need a suitably powerful PA to be able to amplify the guitars and drums and still maintain a good vocal on top of that. You will also require more outboard gear, compression and maybe gates. You would need more monitors then too, which means more amps and more bands of graphic eq.

What absolute nonsense. This sounds like someone with a clue!:rolleyes:

The only extra gear you need will be DI boxes for the instruments. Instrument level is too high for a microphone input so therefore you use a Direct Input/Injection Box which reduces the signal amplitude to a microphone level. There is a parametric EQ on every channel strip so why then extra GEQ's?

A normal band playing in a normal sized venue will need 2/3 of these DI boxes. 1 For lead guitar, 1 for bass, 1 for rythm guitar. The drums would not normally be amplified in this situation. You do not need extra monitors as your backline can be turned around to face you on stage and serve the same purpose. You plug a di box into the line outputs on your backline, then plug the di into your mixer. It is better if the band themselves do not try to mix from stage. Really you need an engineer or technician. From on-stage you CAN NOT HEAR WHAT THE AUDIENCE HEARS! Im blue in the face from telling bands this, even bands with years of experience. Trying to mix from the stage is a bad idea. most venues with a decent sound system will provide a technician for you, id suggest you use his/her services

There are a number of advantages in giving the FOH engineer control, the most obvious being that the audience gets to hear a balanced mix, something that cannot be achieved when you try to mix backline amps with pa vocals.

Its better for the audiences ears also, ive been to a number of gigs in which the band controls the volume and the SPL far exceeds the legal limit for long periods of time. Not meaning to sound anal like, but if i damage my hearing, my career is over. so i walk out of these gigs.

any q's welcome, i can also provide gear if needed
Mick

Vomit

What absolute nonsense. This sounds like someone with a clue!

The only extra gear you need will be DI boxes for the instruments. Instrument level is too high for a microphone input so therefore you use a Direct Input/Injection Box which reduces the signal amplitude to a microphone level. There is a parametric EQ on every channel strip so why then extra GEQ's?

A normal band playing in a normal sized venue will need 2/3 of these DI boxes. 1 For lead guitar, 1 for bass, 1 for rythm guitar. The drums would not normally be amplified in this situation. You do not need extra monitors as your backline can be turned around to face you on stage and serve the same purpose. You plug a di box into the line outputs on your backline, then plug the di into your mixer. It is better if the band themselves do not try to mix from stage. Really you need an engineer or technician. From on-stage you CAN NOT HEAR WHAT THE AUDIENCE HEARS! Im blue in the face from telling bands this, even bands with years of experience. Trying to mix from the stage is a bad idea. most venues with a decent sound system will provide a technician for you, id suggest you use his/her services

There are a number of advantages in giving the FOH engineer control, the most obvious being that the audience gets to hear a balanced mix, something that cannot be achieved when you try to mix backline amps with pa vocals.

Its better for the audiences ears also, ive been to a number of gigs in which the band controls the volume and the SPL far exceeds the legal limit for long periods of time. Not meaning to sound anal like, but if i damage my hearing, my career is over. so i walk out of these gigs.

any q's welcome, i can also provide gear if needed
Mick

Surely you're aware that most guitarists DO mic up their amp...? You can't simply say that instrument level is 'too high' - it depends on where you set the master volume! Experienced people will know this level straight away, but it nonetheless needs to be tried and tested.

DI boxes for guitars... crazy. You'll never get the right sound from your amp that way.

Mikeydb

Vomit wrote: »

Surely you're aware that most guitarists DO mic up their amp...? You can't simply say that instrument level is 'too high' - it depends on where you set the master volume! Experienced people will know this level straight away, but it nonetheless needs to be tried and tested.

DI boxes for guitars... crazy. You'll never get the right sound from your amp that way.

Instrument level is decibels across a standard voltage, not 'where you set the master volume':rolleyes: It's often expressed as decibel volts (dBv) or decibels unloaded (dBu). Each of these has its own reference voltage. But in any event, whether you're basing it on +4dBv (so called pro standard) or -10dBu (so called consumer standard), you're talking about a lot more level than mic level.

Maybe do a bit of research before you open your mouth.
bands i work with and for , do use di boxes. The 'sound' you get from a guitar amp blasting thru a 57 or 58, is not exclusive to the miking technique, in fact the same sound and better can be achieved quite easily if you have a competent engineer that knows how to use his gear to best effect.

Im sick of **** head bands who actually think they know what their talking about. If you listened to your engineer/tech you would have a much more enjoyable gig for yopur audience. Isnt that the idea? Because getting blown away by guitar amps and badly mixed vocals is certainly not my idea of 'Fun'

I feel i must reiterate my earlier statement, when onstage YOU CAN NOT HEAR WHAT THE AUDIENCE HEARS. Its very simple

artvandulet

Mikeydb wrote: »

What absolute nonsense. This sounds like someone with a clue!:rolleyes:

Im confused. Do I have "a clue" or am I talking nonsense?:D

There is a parametric EQ on every channel strip so why then extra GEQ's?

If you look at my post, I said that if you have more monitors, you'll need more eqs. It is common practice to have a band of graphic over each monitor mix, but im sure you know this. Also, you dont know what desk he's using and so you cant assume what kind of eq he has. He might just have a Low mid and Hi and no sweeps for all you know.

And Im with you with having FOH have control. Bands always turn their amps up to loud. We all know that!

Im not going to get into a discussion about DI'ing but needless to say, mic'ing amps is far more common.

Maybe do a bit of research before you open your mouth.

Learn a little bit of respect. This is not how you go about having a discussion on this forum.

Vomit

Mikeydb wrote: »

Instrument level is decibels across a standard voltage, not 'where you set the master volume':rolleyes: It's often expressed as decibel volts (dBv) or decibels unloaded (dBu). Each of these has its own reference voltage. But in any event, whether you're basing it on +4dBv (so called pro standard) or -10dBu (so called consumer standard), you're talking about a lot more level than mic level.

Haha! So this is how you respond to me telling you that you CAN mike up amps, and that they don't have to be 'too loud'. You do realise that the master volume can be set anywhere between 0 and maximum, don't you? :rolleyes::rolleyes: (<double rolleyes for you). I have mic'd up many amps successfully with great results.

Maybe do a bit of research before you open your mouth.
bands i work with and for , do use di boxes. The 'sound' you get from a guitar amp blasting thru a 57 or 58, is not exclusive to the miking technique, in fact the same sound and better can be achieved quite easily if you have a competent engineer that knows how to use his gear to best effect.

How about years of gigging and using mic'd amps? Research enough? You don't sound like you actually have much experience at all. How many major bands do you think use DI boxes for guitars?

Oh, and quit being such an internet tough guy and learn some manners.

Im sick of **** head bands who actually think they know what their talking about.

I'm just sick of ****heads in general.

If you listened to your engineer/tech you would have a much more enjoyable gig for yopur audience. Isnt that the idea? Because getting blown away by guitar amps and badly mixed vocals is certainly not my idea of 'Fun'

I feel i must reiterate my earlier statement, when onstage YOU CAN NOT HEAR WHAT THE AUDIENCE HEARS. Its very simple

And how do you know I DON'T listen to engineers and techs? Your DI box way isn't the only way people do things. Face it, a mic'd up amp isn't a big deal as long as the volume is right. Your initial claim was that instruments are too loud to be mic'd. False.

Savman

Mikeydb wrote: »

A normal band playing in a normal sized venue will need 2/3 of these DI boxes. 1 For lead guitar

:eek:

Total bollocks. I paid a fair price for a Mesa combo, if you tried to DI it I would tell you to take a long walk off a short cliff. This is simply not done in Pro Audio.

Bit rich of you to be lecturing others with such a spiteful tone considering the horrendously bad advice you have just posted. But hey, it's t'internet and keyboard warriors are a plenty.