Why are we happy with second best?

The_Kew_Tour

"Why are All Blacks playing in green" "What a game" "Bring on WC" just some of the texts I received from my mates about the game on Saturday. I could not get see the game but recorded it and even though I did not want to know the score I was excited about watching it given feedback that my mates sent.

But im afraid I do not share same view. Many people seem to be thrilled with our "Bravehearts" as some of our newspapers put it Sunday morning. I just dont get how a team which is described as great team by many can be happy about getting stuffed by 20 points at home. New Zealand are great side but should we not be expecting much more from our national team?

Put it nicely some these players would not wipe boots of most top national teams in world. We had forwards kicking the ball least saw this on four occassions in panic. Also what worries is our fitness, its not up to scratch. The amount of times i saw Irish players struggle with intensity of the game was overwhelming and shocking. Too many of our players are all brawn big men but have no skill to match it, our handling of the ball was another awful scene.

The reality is over the past decade we have failed to deliver on winning more then then just one Grand Slam, We should have won least 2 more 6 nation championships, look at Wales team who have won 2 grand slams in past 5 years yet many Welsh and critics alike will agree that this was one worst teams in Welsh rugby history yet they still delivered when it mattered, speaking of Welsh i often refer to Gavin Henson in here in a crtitical manner which is all fine but maybe we should look closer to home on this one.

Not sure if people follow any sports but had cork lost football final this year they have been blasted in press, so has David Gillick in Athletics for failing to win medal in Euro finals in August, when Padraig Harrington was coming second for years people said he not good enough, our national football have been put to dragons den on more then a number of occassions but yet when our Rugby team get beat once they are seen to play half well and seem to be trying they seem to get praise. Why is this?

I mean if i was to pay the ridiclous amount of money to watch or national side I would be expecting much more then just getting beat by 20 points against a team all be it worldclass (but lets be honest were only trying 70% max) I be expecting us to at least be within a try.

I think anyone thinking of going to world cup next year would would be like throwing your money in Anglos shares at hsi rate. i may be proved wrong next year. maybe we will get to semi final but be brave man to do so.

I aint expecting to win many friends with this post, I am not trying talk BS I am just amushed I suppose you could call it at this stage at how a team that maybe delivers once or twice a year gets such a high praise when it only produces few performnances in year is mind blowing imo. I cant think of another team in world that gets such praise when they loose a game for the standard we set.

I have played rugby at decent level in both Ireland and Wales I dont really post in here although long term reader. Just be interested in your views.

Thanks

corny

I wouldn't be thrilled we lost but i was happy our performance improved. They invariably have better players than we do so if you think a change in attitude will result in a win i think you'll be waiting a while. Every Irish player gave what they had on Saturday. Thats all you can ask.

theKramer

I think its mostly the meedjah that do this "sure at least we played well".
The encouraging thing is that I havent read any of the players or management sounding happy with losing by 20 points.

It goes back to the old "sure, we're just a little country, what can we do attitude". In the 90's people were delighted with how far the soccer team went, when in fact Charlton wasted some of the best talent this countries soccer team ever saw.

The players are definitely not happy with the moral victory anymore, which is as it should be....

LeeroyJones

This time last week people were up in arms at the performance of our coaching and playing staff!!!
Kidney and his players needed to show the Irish public that they are not a spent force and that they still have the desire and ability to compete with the World's best.

Personally I felt last weekend was bitter sweet. Because, we did show heart and quality at times. But as you rightly pointed out-we lost by 20 points.

With two less than convincing performances against the Boks and Samoa, I felt like I was certainly in a minority of people to stand by Kidney and the the players-on Saturday evening I felt justified in that.

Why do I feel justified? Well, because I feel we have a path to go down and hopefully lead us to success. For me, the autumn internationals is not a time for results, rather a time to establish a platform we can build upon.

On Saturday we proved that we can run from deep and score tries against the worlds best. If we can do it against NZ, we can do it against any side in the 6 Nations and the rest. No we didn't do it for 80 minutes and NZ were better at it than us-that's why we lost. But now we have a 6 Nations campaign and a few pre-WC internationals to improve our ability to do it for 80 minutes and keep the opposition out at the same time.

I'm not going to quite say 'Roll on the WC' because if the WC was tomorrow we would be goosed. But, I am confident that we have a gameplan, we have a sizeable pool of capped players and we 12 months to sharpen our knives for NZ 2011.

andrewdcs

I think the "all blacks in green" text was about our blatantly forward pass try... great try nonetheless.

I had very mixed feelings, still a bit resentful over selection, though players I really don't rate had great games I don't think the pick gave us our best line up at the moment. That's pretty common though in fairness, so I'd forgive Kidney a touch; doesn't change recent performances or anger at IRFU ticket policy though (clearly not Kidneys fault)

But on the other hand we were WAAAY better than in the past few weeks and all the players on the pitch should hold their heads up. Some heroic stuff.
A little bit like Samoa versus us, the gulf is there, no denying, and Samoa should have been annoyed not to push us closer for a win or even sneak it. But had earls dabbed down, and a couple of tackles gone better we were way closer than 20 points.

On top of that, there were a good few moments of sheer "all black" level magic from a team who've been close to getting booed. People got a superb game of rugby. Ref was pretty appalling, I've watched it again and he was very very slow to penalise AB infringements, but hey, we've been on the right side of refs like that.

All in all, heartening.

Stev_o

People asked for some heart and thats what they got and very little else. Didn't hide some glaring flaws in our gameplan and our inability to create anything worthwhile in the backline. Mean at the end of the day we never looked like winning that match and NZ just cruised throughout it and really put us to shame in what a players skill set should be.

The dumbest thing i heard was Hook going "All their tries came from the forwards so therefore it was a slug match". Eh one of their tries came from a pick and go the other three were gems of tries that put any team in the world to shame.

d'Oracle

Its the media.
They talk ****.

Most people are glad that we played a shade better than the last few games and pleasantly surprised but ultimately know that we were annihilated by a far superior team.

theKramer

Plus, most of the rugby media are made up of players who played in the era where we were total $hít, and moral victories were all we could achieve...

buck65

We poured our hearts and souls into this game, 5 or 6 injuries - 3 serious -had the ABs on the back foot for long periods - not bad in the scrum, decent lineout possession. Forwards played well, backs proved that for the most part they are not up to it and little penetration.
After all that though a barely interested New Zealand put the pedal down when they needed to and in second gear beat us by 20 points.
They are the best team in the world, we once were in the top 4 now we are probably behind them SA, Aus, France, Scotland perhaps. England are improving , Wales are like us past it.

danthefan

I'm not anyway. Kidney apologists might be.

Amazotheamazing

New Zealand won at a canter, anyone who's genuinely happy after that game is delusional.

I suspect the RTE guys are as sick of the negativity about Ireland (in general) and just wanted to get behind the team. I'm just about done with Hook's negativity anyway.

GreenHell

I was happy with how our defense performed for big portions of the game. Scrum looked improved, lineout generally solid and I thought we looked to move the ball more in the back line and create oppertunities than the all blacks.

Whereas the All Blacks moved the ball from left to right and waited for the oppertunity the arise, which was always going to happen with the amount of ball they had.

Defiantly a good match to set a baseline for the world cup, playing the correct type of game.

Happy with the result? No.

Happy with performance? Happy with how some players played and the game we executed when we had the ball.

The_Kew_Tour

Thanks to everyone for replying to my thread.

More look at my post more I think I was bit harsh on Irish team especially piece about players not good enough make other teams.

In fairness this is flawless NZ team and Dan Carter is something from different planet.

As one poster pointed out we just seem to have a attitude of small country moral victory type and thats really the thing which I would love to have erased from players and mainly supporters especially as that feeds into the teams mindset in first place.

I think we will get better for WC but I would like see an improvement on performance on Saturday even though may be positive to many we need to push on from it now and not just be happy again with another 20 point defeat.

I suppose im more hopeful then confident at this stage about it but I will always get behind lads and hopefully we can have our best WC ever.

JustinDee

So long as the players aren't happy with second best, what we are happy with is pretty much irrelevant.
On Saturday, they flew at the New Zealanders with everything they had. In hindsight, they would have learnt a lot about themselves and what they're capable of from that game. The crunching tries around halftime were down to fairly rudimentary errors.

outwest

GreenHell wrote: »

I was happy with how our defense performed for big portions of the game. Scrum looked improved, lineout generally solid and I thought we looked to move the ball more in the back line and create oppertunities than the all blacks.

Whereas the All Blacks moved the ball from left to right and waited for the oppertunity the arise, which was always going to happen with the amount of ball they had.

Defiantly a good match to set a baseline for the world cup, playing the correct type of game.

Happy with the result? No.

Happy with performance? Happy with how some players played and the game we executed when we had the ball.

we conceded 38 points.

buck65

Exactly, they opened us up at will. This was possibly the most complacent AB's performance I have seen against us. Only when we went ahead did they start playing. Too many of our guys - Reddan, MOD, Healy, Court are not good enough for this level, or others - D'arcy, Wallace, Hayes, perhaps O Callaghan - best days are behind them.
Yes it was a golden generation and we can be happy with the 2000s and the Grand Slam, triple crowns, wins over SA, Australia, England and France but this team is jaded and has too many miles on the clock. As our last 6 games have shown.
Really we need a new manager who will make the tough decisions and bring real change to the panel as Gatland did before O Sullivan took over.
Saying that Ireland with home advantage against England and France could still win the 6 Nations this year but we really can't expect to beat the likes of France anywhere but at home.
A great performance? The delusion continues.

JustinDee

buck65 wrote: »

Exactly, they opened us up at will. This was possibly the most complacent AB's performance I have seen against us

Rubbish.
There were defensive errors leaking in two crucial tries. Aside from falling for what the New Zealanders tried at pace on those occasions, Ireland gave a vastly improved performance. As said, something to work on for next weekend and the Six Nations.
There was nothing complacent in the New Zealand game. Apart from Dan Carter who never seems out of breath after a match, they were absolutely battered.

The 'Logan's Run' method of selection, by the way, doesn't happen anywhere either unless there is no other choice or the team has won everything it can and is at the end of a season.

It wasn't a great performance. It was a greatly improved performance. We'll see Sunday how the team does in a different type game now.

buck65

JustinDee wrote: »

It wasn't a great performance. It was a greatly improved performance. We'll see Sunday how the team does in a different type game now.

So we should be happy with a greatly improved performance?
Beating Argentina will only prove one thing, we are better than them and let's face it since RWC2007 Argentina have been very poor.

JustinDee

buck65 wrote: »

So we should be happy with a greatly improved performance?

I didn't say settle for it and as mentioned before, what we feel is immaterial.
If the team feels it can and will improve upon it, thats all that matters. They were gutted at those two particular defensive errors in particular.

By all means, pre-emptively denegrate next sunday's performance and the opposition. It will be an important game for the team regardless and will basically set the platform up for the Six Nations camp.

buck65

Well with all the injuries in the camp and some tough Heineken Cup games to come it looks to me like a bridge too far for Ireland but sure the IRFU aren't too bothered about that kind of thing I reckon.
And I'm not pre-emptively denegrating next weeks performance. The game that counted was putting a poor Springbok team to the sword and Ireland looked rudderless and toothless. 20 minutes of sustained pressure in each half against an off form All Blacks team isn't enough to make the past month a positive. But sure put whatever spin you want on a dismal Autumn Series for both the IRFU and Kidney's conservative selection.

trackguy

buck65 wrote: »

Well with all the injuries in the camp and some tough Heineken Cup games to come it looks to me like a bridge too far for Ireland but sure the IRFU aren't too bothered about that kind of thing I reckon.
And I'm not pre-emptively denegrating next weeks performance. The game that counted was putting a poor Springbok team to the sword and Ireland looked rudderless and toothless. 20 minutes of sustained pressure in each half against an off form All Blacks team isn't enough to make the past month a positive. But sure put whatever spin you want on a dismal Autumn Series for both the IRFU and Kidney's conservative selection.

By saying 'the game that counted' was the South Africa game, you are denigrating all the other matches in the series. That performance was very poor as was the Samoa performance.

There was a huge improvement in the performance against a much better team in New Zealand - it showed that the team can perform (even if it was in spurts throughout the match).

It showed that the players are capable of an exciting brand of open rugby - a few bad selection calls aside.

Personally, I'm very interested to see how Ireland play against Argentina and would be cautiously optimistic that it will be a good performance. The players will know they did alot right last week but also know that a further improvement is needed.

I'd still like to see a few different players in the team but last week was very encouraging. You sound like you don't have much interest in next weeks match??

JustinDee

buck65 wrote: »

But sure put whatever spin you want on a dismal Autumn Series for both the IRFU and Kidney's conservative selection.

Sorry to disappoint you but I don't do spin. I never said anything about this series being a success either. It has been poor and no-one with any rugby union-nous has said otherwise.

To say the New Zealanders "opened Ireland up at will" about as far from reality as anyone can get with a summary of the game.
NZ put in a lot of hard yakka to get that win and scoreline. They're a fine team.
The gulf you put between them and our national team is delusional.

danthefan

JustinDee wrote: »

Sorry to disappoint you but I don't do spin. I never said anything about this series being a success either. It has been poor and no-one with any rugby union-nous has said otherwise.

To say the New Zealanders "opened Ireland up at will" about as far from reality as anyone can get with a summary of the game.
NZ put in a lot of hard yakka to get that win and scoreline. They're a fine team.
The gulf you put between them and our national team is delusional.

Oh my lordy. You would have to be delusional to think we are remotely as good as NZ. They hammered us last weekend.

JustinDee

danthefan wrote: »

Oh my lordy. You would have to be delusional to think we are remotely as good as NZ. They hammered us last weekend.

Yeah, suppose you're right. Sure weren't they just scoring at will . . . etc . . . etc
Actually why bother turning up at the ground at all? Should have just saved the hotel and facilities bill, conceded then gone home. They're gods, the Kiwis. They can score whenever they want to. At will! Absolutely untouchable gods.

d'Oracle

danthefan wrote: »

Oh my lordy. You would have to be delusional to think we are remotely as good as NZ. They hammered us last weekend.

That's not what he said or implied.

danthefan

JustinDee wrote: »

Yeah, suppose you're right. Sure weren't they just scoring at will . . . etc . . . etc
Actually why bother turning up at the ground at all? Should have just saved the hotel and facilities bill, conceded then gone home. They're gods, the Kiwis. They can score whenever they want to. At will! Absolutely untouchable gods.

There is a massive gulf between us and NZ. That is the truth.

ALH-06

buck65 wrote: »

Too many of our guys - Reddan, MOD, Healy, Court are not good enough for this level, or others - D'arcy, Wallace, Hayes, perhaps O Callaghan - best days are behind them.... Really we need a new manager who will make the tough decisions and bring real change to the panel as Gatland did before O Sullivan took over.

Since you have all the answers, maybe you could be more specific with the details.

buck65 wrote: »

Exactly, they opened us up at will. This was possibly the most complacent AB's performance I have seen against us.

danthefan wrote: »

You would have to be delusional to think we are remotely as good as NZ. They hammered us last weekend.

Unfair I say! We were second best on Saturday, no doubt, but to say things like 'they opened us up at will' and 'they hammered us' is giving the All Blacks far too much credit. Perrennial Irish trait...

They're better than us - that's undisputed. There is a gulf in class, definitely. But we proved last weekend that while we're not a finished article, we're improving. And while we can't compete against the ABs for 80 minutes at the highest intensity, we certainly competed with them for large spells of the match. And played some very good, positive rugby. Not good enough, I know. Not yet. But they certainly didn't 'hammer' us, as Henry was quick to say after the game, and as every match review I've read has stated since.

buck65

ALH-06 wrote: »

Since you have all the answers, maybe you could be more specific with the details.

But we proved last weekend that while we're not a finished article, we're improving. And while we can't compete against the ABs for 80 minutes at the highest intensity, we certainly competed with them for large spells of the match. .

Well ok then whatbout using this Autumn series to actually try some new players and combinations?
We have had D'arcy and O Driscoll for years doing the same thing in the centre. Earls or Fitzgerald should have got a game at 13. Stringer got about 20 minutes with Sexton when many feel it could be a partnership worth looking at.
Our lineout decisions are atrocious. MOD? Leo Cullen should have got a game at this stage. Devin Toner should have got a start against the AB's. The continued absence of Geordan Murphy except when an out of sorts Kearney gets injured. John Hayes on the bench against the AB's? He is now 3rd choice TH at Munster. Ross, though far from international standard IMO should have had a chance to prove himself.
Donncha Ryan is still in the squad for training purposes despite being suspended and out of form. Sean O Brien surely worth a start too. Does Kidney even watch the provinces anymore? What about the great rugby that is being played while all the "big guns" are away.
Of Course Kidney will ring the changes now that he has too and will probably dodge a bullet by beating Argentina and blather something about strength in depth because he had to play some guys that wouldn't normally start (and who have probably been tried before with varying degrees of success).
We might have proved we aren't "the finished article" as you say , as if we are a team of rookies who were being blooded. If this team isn't the finished article now well then I'm afraid we are in trouble.

ALH-06

buck65 wrote: »

Well ok then whatbout using this Autumn series to actually try some new players and combinations?
We have had D'arcy and O Driscoll for years doing the same thing in the centre. Earls or Fitzgerald should have got a game at 13. Stringer got about 20 minutes with Sexton when many feel it could be a partnership worth looking at.
Our lineout decisions are atrocious. MOD? Leo Cullen should have got a game at this stage. Devin Toner should have got a start against the AB's. The continued absence of Geordan Murphy except when an out of sorts Kearney gets injured. John Hayes on the bench against the AB's? He is now 3rd choice TH at Munster. Ross, though far from international standard IMO should have had a chance to prove himself.
Donncha Ryan is still in the squad for training purposes despite being suspended and out of form. Sean O Brien surely worth a start too. Does Kidney even watch the provinces anymore? What about the great rugby that is being played while all the "big guns" are away.
Of Course Kidney will ring the changes now that he has too and will probably dodge a bullet by beating Argentina and blather something about strength in depth because he had to play some guys that wouldn't normally start (and who have probably been tried before with varying degrees of success).
We might have proved we aren't "the finished article" as you say , as if we are a team of rookies who were being blooded. If this team isn't the finished article now well then I'm afraid we are in trouble.

I agree with a lot of this, particularly regarding the Hayes debacle. I have tried and tried to understand Kidney's thinking in this respect and just can't fathom it.

Kidney is building for the world cup. After RWC11, we can start looking at radically different combinations at centre and elsewhere. But for the time being, Kidney obviously believes the spine of this team - the tried and tested BODs and the Darcys etc - are capable of doing a job in NZ. And that they're the best chance we've got. And by the signs of improvement that we saw on Saturday, I wouldn't bet against this.

SOB should be started against Argentina. If so, that'd make 2 out of 4 starts in the Autumn Series. If this turns out to be the case, Kidney could not be accused of overlooking his development. I'm personally very glad that Toner didn't start against the ABs. I thought MOD (despite his limitations) fronted up very well physically (unlike against SA), and I don't think Toner will ever be able to hit rucks with the required ferocity for international level. However, I was also very disappointed at Cullen's exclusion, and am still very much unconvinced of Donncha Ryan's ability.

Elsewhere, Earls needs far, far more ML and HC game time at centre to be considered for Ireland in this position. In particular, he needs to prove his defensive frailties have been sorted out. Fitz is very much a back three player with virtually no game time in the centre. Bowe and Trimble are both better prospects for 13, while there are two world-class players fighting over 12. Our centre is well covered.

Finally, I agree that the Sexton - Stringer axis should have been given a run. Ideally, this would have been against Samoa, in preparation for the AB game. However, I thought Reddan played very well on Saturday and did a lot to exonerate Kidney's selection decision in this regard.