how will the imf affect us?

whelan1

i dont really know alot about it , so where do we stand

BeeDI

whelan1 wrote: »

i dont really know alot about it , so where do we stand

I'd say not a huge direct hit on agriculture. General new charges or taxes on residential property, water etc. Higher income tax. If you have kids to put through college, you will end up paying huge money, especially if they are living away from home.

irishh_bob

whelan1 wrote: »

i dont really know alot about it , so where do we stand

baschically, the IMF and the eu ( lets not forget them ) will have to give thier consent to any level of ( goverment ) spending in the economy for the next four years , its up to us where we make the savings , agriculture will not be immune , we are going to see serious hikes in income tax levels , reduced spending on child wellfare , higher college fees and of course property taxes ( farmers live in houses too ) , the OAP will not be touched at least untill fianna fail are out of goverment as they are the one group who are still ( loyal ) to fianna fail , i find this a disgrace as pensioners are absolutley spoiled in this country as it is and are one of the wealthiest and certainly the least indebted of any age profile

the ludicrious croke park agreement is being kept so as when fianna fail are out of office in the spring , they can shout across at the opposition that they didnt cut nurses and guards pay by another 20% which is what is going to happen , a country that is reliant on the kindness of strangers can not with a straight face be paying its nurses 25% more than in the uk

btw , i think its important to be aware the outside influence on our present situation , the reason the eu were so eager to help us was down to one thing , british and german banks are up to thier necks in lending to irish banks , had the bailout not happened , irish banks would have collapsed today and would most likely have taken several british and german banks down with them , the result could have been a complete collapse of the euro , the level to which the situation had been ratcheted up in the last ten days is extrordinary , the powers in europe realised irish banks were loosing deposits and hit the panic button , it was not for the love of us that they came to our rescue and the price we as a country will pay for this rescue is 100 billion loan landed on at least two generations

thats not to say fianna fail havent been a thundering disgrace this past decade , they put the likes of sean quinn and his involvment in anglo before the country and this was one of the reasons in turn why the bond holders ( who lent to anglo ) were saved , no irish person with any sense of patriotism should vote for fianna fail for at least a generation again no matter how good he or she happens to be at getting medical cards or fixing potholes , time the national interest came ahead of local parish pump interests

reilig

irishh_bob wrote: »

baschically, the IMF and the eu ( lets not forget them ) will have to give thier consent to any level of ( goverment ) spending in the economy for the next four years , its up to us where we make the savings , agriculture will not be immune , we are going to see serious hikes in income tax levels , reduced spending on child wellfare , higher college fees and of course property taxes ( farmers live in houses too ) , the OAP will not be touched at least untill fianna fail are out of goverment as they are the one group who are still ( loyal ) to fianna fail , i find this a disgrace as pensioners are absolutley spoiled in this country as it is and are one of the wealthiest and certainly the least indebted of any age profile

the ludicrious croke park agreement is being kept so as when fianna fail are out of office in the spring , they can shout across at the opposition that they didnt cut nurses and guards pay by another 20% which is what is going to happen , a country that is reliant on the kindness of strangers can not with a straight face be paying its nurses 25% more than in the uk

btw , i think its important to be aware the outside influence on our present situation , the reason the eu were so eager to help us was down to one thing , british and german banks are up to thier necks in lending to irish banks , had the bailout not happened , irish banks would have collapsed today and would most likely have taken several british and german banks down with them , the result could have been a complete collapse of the euro , the level to which the situation had been ratcheted up in the last ten days is extrordinary , the powers in europe realised irish banks were loosing deposits and hit the panic button , it was not for the love of us that they came to our rescue and the price we as a country will pay for this rescue is 100 billion loan landed on at least two generations

thats not to say fianna fail havent been a thundering disgrace this past decade , they put the likes of sean quinn and his involvment in anglo before the country and this was one of the reasons in turn why the bond holders ( who lent to anglo ) were saved , no irish person with any sense of patriotism should vote for fianna fail for at least a generation again no matter how good he or she happens to be at getting medical cards or fixing potholes , time the national interest came ahead of local parish pump interests

Vincent Brown, is that you??

I agree with you. In a way I see it as a positive move. We have had a shower of wasters run this country to the ground in recent years and there's no sign of any politican waiting in the wings that could get us out of this mess. Th IMF won't care who they cut. Yes it will impact on us. But they will also enforce taxes on the most wealthy of this country, who for the last 20 years have paid no tax because of a cosy situation with the government.

Not political so i'm not going to comment on parties

pakalasa

I dont think it will effect farmers that much, not directly anyway.
It's like there has been two economies all along, the international one, made up of farmers, manufacturing companies and the domestic one. This made up of construction, hotels, restaurants civil service etc, those that didnt have to compete with international competition. It's the domestic one that has been hit the most, everyone so far except the civil serivce. Their hit has yet to come, and the IMF will insist on it. We have the highest payed civil serveants in Europe and we're going bust. We're borrowing €20 bilion a year just to pay their wages.
Brian Cowen going to Anjela Merkel with his cap in his hand, and guess who's on the highest salary, crazy when you think about it.

johngalway

I would cast a very suspicious eye towards any direct monies that come into farming from Irish sources. I think they're vulnerable to some extent and I wouldn't be surprised if they get hit.

Other than that I do not know.

Muckit

I'm not big into politics either, but I feel whoever is in power next won't be a miracle worker given the state things are in at the moment. This whole thing hasn't happened over night. We've the opposition then shouting for a general election, but I don't think they really want to be in power (Why would they? For one it's easier to sit on the fence and shout about what's wrong without having to come up with the solution:rolleyes:)

As for the IMF, well they are here now and I don't think we as citizens and taxpayers of this country will have much influence over them and their decisions, so why worry about it (pointless), what will be, will be. We may be better off praying than worrying

I think they will bring stability to the country and possibly bring back a little confidence in us and our EU neighbours looking on.

John_F

in the last 10 days i came across this press relase from June https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/press/pressreleases/2010/june/title,44143,en.html

Minister Smith concluded by confirming that "following the launch of these two schemes today, I will be progressing the other on-farm investment schemes, including the €8 million scheme for sheep fencing and mobile handling facilities and the €45 million scheme for dairy farmers to make the necessary investment to adjust to expanding dairy opportunities and promote the operation of cost-effective commercial operations.

the pig and pultry scheme was launched and the sheep scheme was launced i think, but still no word of this 45m for the dairy farmers, is this going into the black hole

the imf and eu would want to start from the top and cut ALL T.D.s pay, they are elected to represent not to have a cosy salary. Farming will rise in the crisis as the government realises that the exports are what is keeping the country some what above water and how much the agri food industry contributes to the economy, Ireland the food island, we could have really pushed with that brand when we had money, but no point looking back, if bulmers can re-brand then so can farmers, given the correct support of course

its not the end of the world and ireland will recover slowly, hopefully just not with fianna fail, Patience is a virtue

johngalway

Muckit wrote: »

without having to come up with the solution:rolleyes:

better off praying

:eek:

Is it you Eamon?

irishh_bob

reilig wrote: »

Vincent Brown, is that you??

I agree with you. In a way I see it as a positive move. We have had a shower of wasters run this country to the ground in recent years and there's no sign of any politican waiting in the wings that could get us out of this mess. Th IMF won't care who they cut. Yes it will impact on us. But they will also enforce taxes on the most wealthy of this country, who for the last 20 years have paid no tax because of a cosy situation with the government.

Not political so i'm not going to comment on parties

im about as far from vincent browne in idealogy as you could get

as for taxing the wealth , the super wealthy ( less than 1% of the population ) got away with paying small amounts of tax but its a myth that relativley wealthy people paid none , those who did pay none are those earning under 25 k per year , in the uk , you start paying tax at 9 k per year , here its 21 k and up to 30 k you pay almost nothing

reilig

irishh_bob wrote: »

im about as far from vincent browne in idealogy as you could get

as for taxing the wealth , the super wealthy ( less than 1% of the population ) got away with paying small amounts of tax but its a myth that relativley wealthy people paid none , those who did pay none are those earning under 25 k per year , in the uk , you start paying tax at 9 k per year , here its 21 k and up to 30 k you pay almost nothing

€30k per year could not be classed as relatively wealthy IMO. You'd be wealthier if you were bringing in €12k because you would be eligable for medical card, rent allowance, fuel allowance, FIS, etc. etc. and have to pay no tax at all. Through my work, I know a raft of people who earn between €100k and €200k per year and pay less tax than I pay on my €35k per year salary.

irishh_bob

reilig wrote: »

€30k per year could not be classed as relatively wealthy IMO. You'd be wealthier if you were bringing in €12k because you would be eligable for medical card, rent allowance, fuel allowance, FIS, etc. etc. and have to pay no tax at all. Through my work, I know a raft of people who earn between €100k and €200k per year and pay less tax than I pay on my €35k per year salary.

i didnt say those earning 30 k were relativley wealthy , i said those who are relativley wealthy ( ranging over 50 k and under 250 k ) were paying the bulk of tax , only the super wealthy ( millions ) were finding loopholes

those earning under 30 k have been undertaxed for a long time , that is going to change , i believe everyone should pay some tax , it fosters a sense of citizenship and responsibility in how things are done and gives everyone a stake in the future of the country

pakalasa

You've got to realise that it is the 'super rich' as you call them that will create the jobs. The State aint going to do it.

Birdnuts

johngalway wrote: »

I would cast a very suspicious eye towards any direct monies that come into farming from Irish sources. I think they're vulnerable to some extent and I wouldn't be surprised if they get hit.

.

Your on the money there John I suspect - also expect the state services to Agriculture to cost alot more.

PS: As bad as things are, things could get alot worse if the other PIGS go down the bailout route(the likelyhood of which is increasing by the day!!). This could throw the whole Euro/EU project into doubt and raise serious questions about CAP funding into the future:(

whelan1

what was that press conference about ?

Casinoking

The last, desperate act of a dying beast by the looks of it. Can't see them making it past the Christmas break at this stage

Shauny2010

whelan1 wrote: »

what was that press conference about ?

Is he talking about the price of cattle ? I think it`d easier to understand an auctioneer:D

Birdnuts

whelan1 wrote: »

what was that press conference about ?

Highlighting how BIFFO and FF don't do shame:rolleyes:

jonnybravo

irishh_bob wrote: »

im about as far from vincent browne in idealogy as you could get

as for taxing the wealth , the super wealthy ( less than 1% of the population ) got away with paying small amounts of tax but its a myth that relativley wealthy people paid none , those who did pay none are those earning under 25 k per year , in the uk , you start paying tax at 9 k per year , here its 21 k and up to 30 k you pay almost nothing

In New Zealand you have no such thing as tax free allowance - every cent is taxed - starting at 14% and moving up. The Irish income tax is way too low especially for a country in such debt and will inevitably rise along with water charges and property tax.

pakalasa

When the IMF went into Latvia, it cut civil service pay by 20% and pensions by 30%.

"There have been salary cuts of up to 30% across the public sector, income tax has been increased from 23% to 26%, Vat from 18% to 21%, the number of state agencies has been halved from 76 to 39 and there have been further tax increases on alcohol, cars and property."

From;
http://www.tribune.ie/article/2010/nov/14/if-you-want-to-know-what-happens-when-the-imf-come/

Birdnuts

pakalasa wrote: »

When the IMF went into Latvia, it cut civil service pay by 20% and pensions by 30%.

"There have been salary cuts of up to 30% across the public sector, income tax has been increased from 23% to 26%, Vat from 18% to 21%, the number of state agencies has been halved from 76 to 39 and there have been further tax increases on alcohol, cars and property."

From;
http://www.tribune.ie/article/2010/nov/14/if-you-want-to-know-what-happens-when-the-imf-come/

I hope it cuts the salaries of everyone in the Civil Service earning over 100K by 50% since thats were the problems are - this includes all are useless politicians.


PS: RTE is another place were the axe needs to be welded:mad:

Casinoking

Birdnuts wrote: »

I hope it cuts the salaries of everyone in the Civil Service earning over 100K by 50% since thats were the problems are - this includes all are useless politicians.


PS: RTE is another place were the axe needs to be welded:mad:

50% pay cuts in RTE wouldn't go nearly far enough. As if cutting the terrible twins press conference last night wasn't bad enough, they didn't even bother with the Green Party statement at all this morning. As a cousin of mine put it in a message at the time "General election in January. Newstalk and Sky covering live. RTE playing accordian music."

BeeDI

Casinoking wrote: »

50% pay cuts in RTE wouldn't go nearly far enough. As if cutting the terrible twins press conference last night wasn't bad enough, they didn't even bother with the Green Party statement at all this morning. As a cousin of mine put it in a message at the time "General election in January. Newstalk and Sky covering live. RTE playing accordian music."

Accordian music sounds a lot better than waffle from the political classes. ALL OF THEM.

pakalasa

As they say, funny cause it's true;

Irish Politicians;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHTNTptUEe8

irishh_bob

Birdnuts wrote: »

I hope it cuts the salaries of everyone in the Civil Service earning over 100K by 50% since thats were the problems are - this includes all are useless politicians.


PS: RTE is another place were the axe needs to be welded:mad:

actually cutting is more importat at a wage where the greatest number of people are employed , plus the fact of the matter is , those in the civil service at the lower payer levels are more out of line with thier private sector counterparts , very few secretarys in a solicitors office earn 30 k per year yet most clerical officers in various goverment depts earn at least that

Birdnuts

irishh_bob wrote: »

actually cutting is more importat at a wage where the greatest number of people are employed , plus the fact of the matter is , those in the civil service at the lower payer levels are more out of line with thier private sector counterparts , very few secretarys in a solicitors office earn 30 k per year yet most clerical officers in various goverment depts earn at least that

So you think BIFFO should be paid more then the British PM and the German Chancellor or that the head of Coillte is worth nearly 500K:rolleyes:

irishh_bob

Birdnuts wrote: »

So you think BIFFO should be paid more then the British PM and the German Chancellor or that the head of Coillte is worth nearly 500K:rolleyes:

where exaxctly did i say such a thing

cutting politicans salarys needs to happen 1st as it has symbolic importance but from listening to some people , you would think if we fired all 166 TD,s , all our financial problems would be solved

John_F

IMF axemen target €400m of farm cash (independent 23rd nov)

Farm supports amounting to more than €400m could be in the firing line as the IMF team seeks to restore order to the public finances.

The schemes that are most exposed to cuts are those that are 100pc funded by the Irish taxpayer. These include the Farm Assist, Suckler Cow Welfare Scheme (SCWS), forestry grants, Fallen Animal Scheme and Disadvantaged Area (DAS).

http://www.independent.ie/farming/imf-axemen-target-euro400m-of-farm-cash-2432277.html


OUCH

5live

John_F wrote: »

IMF axemen target €400m of farm cash (independent 23rd nov)

And thats only the GOOD news. There is another E9 billion to go after that or another 60% of cuts and tax increases in the general budget estimates. And THAT only if growth averages 2.5% over the next 4 years. If not, the knife comes out again:D

OUCH is about right

adne

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1124/plan.pdf

Have a look at the table on page 84.

Capital Expenditure on Agricultrue been halved for 2012, 2013 .........

:(:mad:

foundation10

adne wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1124/plan.pdf

Have a look at the table on page 84.

Capital Expenditure on Agricultrue been halved for 2012, 2013 .........

:(:mad:

This may be due to the fact that the balance of payments is paid in Jan on the FWMS and a one off. But not sure as I dont have figures in total for this.

Upstream

Here's where the cuts to agriculture are coming in the report. Hard to follow but it looks like reduced spending on REPs is the biggest initial cut (35.7m in the first full year) with cuts of 221m in total by 2014

page 115

Table A.8.1 Savings to be achieved in 2011 and remaining savings in the period to 2014
2011 Measures* 2011 Measures* Further Measures Total
(First Year, €m) (Full Year, €m) (by 2014, €m) (€m)
Agriculture, Fisheries & Food 75 101 120 221

page 116

Agriculture, Fisheries & Food
The Agriculture sector will contribute savings of €221 million by 2014. The specific savings targets for implementation in 2011 are set out in the table below.
Full year €m
Agriculture
The key adjustments include programme savings, payroll savings and other running cost savings as set out below:

Programme
Reduced expenditure on REPS 35.7
Reductions in the Disease Eradication area due to reduced instances of disease in 2010 6.3
Reduced expenditure on ERS due to scheme closure 5
Reduction in Intervention costs 4.5
Efficiencies in the running costs of State Bodies 3
Other savings (including some running cost reductions) 5.5
Payroll savings 26
Other
Non pay administrative savings 15.1

Total Agriculture Savings 101

Agriculture, Fisheries & Food 2012-2014
Achieving the targeted savings will require the adoption of further measures yielding some €120 million in the years to 2014. Consolidation will need to focus on streamlining a range of programmes. Options to be considered include prioritisation of financial support in schemes to active farmers, also taking into account CAP reform.
An alternative funding model to support the horse and greyhound industries will be introduced.

John_F

adne wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1124/plan.pdf

Have a look at the table on page 84.

Capital Expenditure on Agricultrue been halved for 2012, 2013 .........

:(:mad:

turn that frown upside down and look at page 47 and 48

Action Points
Government will:
ƒ Implement the key recommendations of Food Harvest 2020.
ƒ Reconfigure the milk quota scheme.
ƒ Promote lean manufacturing in the agri-food sector.
ƒ Provide direct capital supports for marketing and processing.
ƒ Support the consolidation and restructuring needed to enhance competition in the sector.

also property tax excluded from agri land, and nothing as i can see about reclaiming vat

sorry if im not portraying the poor mouth

alot will have to come out of farmers pockets to achieve this i guess and no grants and subsidies paying for other peoples mistakes

whelan1

just read on aertel that failure to orgainise the eu budget before the end of the year could hit direct payments to farmers:eek::eek::eek: i am not happy....

reilig

There seems to be so many scare mongering reports around this morning its difficult to know what's the truth or if its just the over dramatising of journalists for popularity. Listened to cd's in the car on the way to work instead of the usual news. Some people just thrive on misery and if they don't have it, they make it.

5live

John_F wrote: »

turn that frown upside down and look at page 47 and 48



also property tax excluded from agri land, and nothing as i can see about reclaiming vat

sorry if im not portraying the poor mouth

alot will have to come out of farmers pockets to achieve this i guess and no grants and subsidies paying for other peoples mistakes

Ahmm John F. Food harvest targets are going to cost E850 million or 31cent a litre just for outside the farmgate ie stainless steel, transport, processing and sale and storage. Paid for by the farmers increasing production with not a red cent by the government despite the thousands of extra jobs being provided. And that before the necessary housing and slurry storage and milking facilities. I wouldnt celebrate just yet

John_F

5live wrote: »

Ahmm John F. Food harvest targets are going to cost E850 million or 31cent a litre just for outside the farmgate ie stainless steel, transport, processing and sale and storage. Paid for by the farmers increasing production with not a red cent by the government despite the thousands of extra jobs being provided. And that before the necessary housing and slurry storage and milking facilities. I wouldnt celebrate just yet

begod im not celebrating, never was anyway, celtic tiger gave me nothing much except a reasonably priced education. the 2020 report wont happen without some help from gov / eu in my view, be that money and legislation such like the dairy restructuring act in NZ

lets have a sing song, cowen if your reading you can do the intro :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBiLNN1NhQ

John_F

just reading todays examiner and Eamonn Pitts reckons the 2020 report is too ambitious and that the plan would add 800k tonnes to irelands greenhouse gas emmissions

lets face it, nealry all the measures in the 4 year plan will be reviewed by the incoming government and depend on growth figures

trevor_matode

To answer the question, IMF means 1 labour unit will cost -10, -20, maybe -33% in euro terms within a few years.