Politics Forum and standards

gandalf

This is a query I would like one of the senior admins to answer, in fact I would like to have DeVores input on this.

As one of the founding mods of Politics and one that helped grow that forum into a place for intelligent discussion of political topics without it sliding into the chaos that some other sites have descented to I am now extremely concerned with the dumbing down of that forum.

I was very proud of the achievement of having a forum where standards were expected of the posts and of the thread starters. In recent times there has been a serious degradation of the quality of posts and the reaction of the moderator team to dealing with some of these threads. That in part was down to the actual cover available which became apparent from a thread in feedback. That is being dealt with (very slowly) and one new mod has been appointed. There was the offer of temporary moderators from existing mods and others like me with experience but I believe that was turned down from admin level. That is a worry but what is more of a worry is that there is a "policy" of dumbing down the standards in politics.

So here are some direct questions for you.

Is it a policy of the senior boards.ie admins to dumb down the politics forum?

If this is the case how can you justify the fact that a lot of people who moderated Politics in past spending hundreds of man hours to maintain those standards now have to see it being diluted into a After Hours with a political slant type forum?

If it is not the policy of the boards senior admins to dumb down the forum how do you reconcile that with the opinion of what appears to be the moderator driving the direction of the forum to dumbing it down?

To keep this very straight and so you have all the facts I have in the past clashed with this person via PM and from the outcomes of those interactions I have had serious reason to question their consistency in the moderation of the forum. This query is not directly connected with that.

This query is being posting out of severe frustration with the ongoing situation.

r3nu4l

Hi gandalf, apologies for not replying sooner, we've not been ignoring you we've been discussing a number of points around what you have to say. We need to clarify a few things before beginning.

There is no such thing as a Senior Admin, there are Admins who founded (and own) the site but they are Admins, not Senior Admins.

You don't get to ask which Admin replies but I can understand why you want DeVore to reply.

Okay, let's move on.

gandalf wrote:

So here are some direct questions for you.

Is it a policy of the senior boards.ie admins to dumb down the politics forum?

No.

If this is the case how can you justify the fact that a lot of people who moderated Politics in past spending hundreds of man hours to maintain those standards now have to see it being diluted into a After Hours with a political slant type forum?

It's not the case.

If it is not the policy of the boards senior admins to dumb down the forum how do you reconcile that with the opinion of what appears to be the moderator driving the direction of the forum to dumbing it down?

There are a number of factors at play here.
1.Very recently the politics mods have been under a lot of strain and as such it has been impossible to cover every post in the forum due to the sheer numbers of new posts. To this end we have appointed new mods.

2. Given the current state of the Irish economy and Irish politics we have renewed interest in politics generally. People that never before voted, intended to vote or concerned themselves with politics are now eager to have their say. As such we have an influx of new posters, new registrants and a general overwhelming amount of users who do not know or understand how to conduct political debate or discussion.

We are working on this.

To keep this very straight and so you have all the facts I have in the past clashed with this person via PM and from the outcomes of those interactions I have had serious reason to question their consistency in the moderation of the forum. This query is not directly connected with that.

Yet it does seem to be a factor for you. If you do have an issue with a particular mod take it up with a CMod or if that person is a CMod, take it up with their fellow CMods, then use the DRP.

This query is being posting out of severe frustration with the ongoing situation.

You aren't the only one being frustrated by it and we're working to rectify it. For what it's worth, Admins do not decide how the forum runs, we provide general guidelines for the mods but the mods know best how the forum works and they do their best to ensure that it runs smoothly.

As for a conspiracy to dumb down the forum? DeVore is a founder of this site and a very politically aware person. He has facilitated politicians in the use of this site to engage in proper debate, he has encouraged active discussion and broadening of the politics forum to a number of sub-forums and generally encourages people to contribute well to these forums. There is no conspiracy from ANY Admins to dumb down the forum, it is unfortunately partly a by-product of the interesting times we now find ourselves in.

Again apologies for the lateness of the response, it is still being discussed and I know that the politics mods are working hard on the forum right now.

gandalf

The reason I asked if DeVore could reply was precisely because of the his interest in the Politics forum and his contributions towards it and the fact he is one of the original admins and one of the main reasons this site exists today. He is also aware that I do give a damn about this site despite our differences and I have contributed a lot of my time in the past to maintaining standards by moderating in Humanities, Soccer, Politics, Photography, Airsoft and being the original Cmod of Society. As such I would still like to hear DeVores view.

I have acknowledged the bandwidth problems but I am referring to one of the main Politics mods (and a Cmod) saying that they did not agree with my stance on standards and they were in favour of a more lax approach. To be honest the new mods have made a difference and the reaction time to dealing with nonsense posts seems to be going down, this is only a good thing because if the users and browsers of the politics forum see this happening then it will discourage further vacuous contributions. However that original statement by Scofflaw has me worried as to what the plan is for politics in the future.

With regard to the "We are working on it statement" that is trotted out all the time. These issues were flagged and acknowledged by the main mod on Politics over a month before the additional mods were appointed. Given that it was acknowledged that most of the normal Politics mods were afk well before the thread appeared in feedback there should have been a proactive effort to get additional resources in place. I know when I modded forums and we knew or realised there an issue of this type we would get a plan of action sorted in advance and have people ready to slot in. I have also been known to phone fellow mods or admins directly when serious issues occurred in forums.

Also to be precise admins do have a say in how individual forums are run, in Politics two of the moderators are also admins and if there are enough valid complaints to the admins on goings on in a forum they would have to take action for the sake of the site and its users. If they didn't then I would indeed be worried about the future. I think it should be borne in mind that a lot of people have moderated Politics in the past to maintain a high standard of discourse and to allow that to slip now is extremely disrespectful to the hard work they did put in over the years. As I said in the feedback thread one of the achievements I was very proud of when I finished moderating on boards was the politics forum and its high level of standards when compared with other sites out in the ether. I am heartened to hear that this is not policy from the admin side and I am sure you don't have a problem with me highlighting this here.

bonkey

gandalf wrote: »

I am referring to one of the main Politics mods (and a Cmod) saying that they did not agree with my stance on standards and they were in favour of a more lax approach.

That's their perogative.

When mods work together, they have to try to find common ground. They may not always agree with each other, but they have to find a way to work together.

I'd like to think that I helped "set the tone" for Politics having seen it through some of its formative years. I used to take great pride in seeing that even though I hadn't been a moderator there for some time, the charter I helped write and that was posted by me was still largely in place. It wasn't my ship to steer any more, though. I could, of course, voice opinion as a user, but it was the moderators who would make the decisions. They were free to take it in a different direction to the one I would have chosen....because part of their job is to take it in the direction they see fit - that burden was no longer mine.

I'm not trying to suggest that a moderator is right, purely by virtue of being a moderator....but rather that they're not automatically wrong by virtue of being at odds with your opinion or mine, because we were there first.

I'm also not trying to suggest that there's anything wrong in voicing disagreement, nor in trying to influence direction...its a vital feedback mechanism I think far too few people really utilise.

Ultimately, I'm trying to say that there isn't a problem per se with a moderator not agreeing with your stance (or mine). There may be a problem with the stance a moderator believes is appropriate, but that should be established on the basis of the problem with the stance rather then whose opinion(s) it disagrees with.

r3nu4l

gandalf wrote: »

The reason I asked if DeVore could reply was precisely because of the his interest in the Politics forum and his contributions towards it and the fact he is one of the original admins and one of the main reasons this site exists today.

That's all well and good but all Admins are discussing this topic (and have been for a while) and as such can reply to you as and when.

He is also aware that I do give a damn about this site despite our differences and I have contributed a lot of my time in the past to maintaining standards by moderating in Humanities, Soccer, Politics, Photography, Airsoft and being the original Cmod of Society. As such I would still like to hear DeVores view.

We are all aware of your past contributions as Mod and CMod and while that is admired and respected it does not mean that you somehow have more of a right to a reply from DeVore than any other user, Mod or Admin on this site. If DeVore chooses to respond, he will. Just like any other Admin.

I have acknowledged the bandwidth problems but I am referring to one of the main Politics mods (and a Cmod) saying that they did not agree with my stance on standards and they were in favour of a more lax approach.

Okay, well that's something to talk to the other Mods, CMods about.

To be honest the new mods have made a difference and the reaction time to dealing with nonsense posts seems to be going down, this is only a good thing because if the users and browsers of the politics forum see this happening then it will discourage further vacuous contributions. However that original statement by Scofflaw has me worried as to what the plan is for politics in the future.

Okay, I can see where you are coming from, that's something the politics mods need to discuss (if they haven't already.). However, I think that the modding recently and in the future will show you that there's no intent to dumb-down the forum.

[QUTOE]With regard to the "We are working on it statement" that is trotted out all the time. These issues were flagged and acknowledged by the main mod on Politics over a month before the additional mods were appointed.[/QUOTE]

As a former politics mod yourself you know full well that it's not just anyone that can mod the politics forum. We had lots of suggestions for mods and turned down quite a few for various reasons before finally selecting new mods. It's NOT something we were going to rush into just to get some more bodies in to snip posts.

Given that it was acknowledged that most of the normal Politics mods were afk well before the thread appeared in feedback there should have been a proactive effort to get additional resources in place. I know when I modded forums and we knew or realised there an issue of this type we would get a plan of action sorted in advance and have people ready to slot in. I have also been known to phone fellow mods or admins directly when serious issues occurred in forums.

See above.

Also to be precise admins do have a say in how individual forums are run, in Politics two of the moderators are also admins and if there are enough valid complaints to the admins on goings on in a forum they would have to take action for the sake of the site and its users.

Actually, those two Admins have taken the decision to stay out of this discussion (for now) because they don't want their opinion as politics mods to colour the Admin decision on the forum or your questions. If they participated it would be unfair to the Mods of other forums who don't also have that facility to decide on policy.

If they didn't then I would indeed be worried about the future.

See above for why they aren't involved.

I think it should be borne in mind that a lot of people have moderated Politics in the past to maintain a high standard of discourse and to allow that to slip now is extremely disrespectful to the hard work they did put in over the years.

Things change as the site grows, it will never be the same as it was in Feb 1998 when you joined, or even Jan 2006 when I joined. It will always grow and develop. What you call low discourse could be called 'greater openness'. However as I said, we recognise the problem and are working on it and have already made changes.

As I said in the feedback thread one of the achievements I was very proud of when I finished moderating on boards was the politics forum and its high level of standards when compared with other sites out in the ether. I am heartened to hear that this is not policy from the admin side and I am sure you don't have a problem with me highlighting this here.

Definitely don't have a problem with it. It's always good to have issues raised when there's no agenda behind it and only genuine concern. You should also bear in mind that you weren't the only one modding the forum at that time or who brought it to that standard, in fact a current Admin also modded it at the same time as you yet does not seem to get acknowledged. That Admin is involved in the discussion and I'm sure you'll be glad to know that.

gandalf

Lo there JC hope the family is well

If it was just me saying this then yes I would agree with you about it being the moderators perogative. However it is not just me saying this it is a lot of regular posters to the forum some of whom sent me PM's because they know my history with the forum.

Now it is concerning when people who are regular contributors to the forum, some of whom have ideas I do not agree with but whose ability to express those ideas are of very high quality mirror my opinion that the standard of discourse has lessened in the last few months. That is why I contributed to the thread in feedback and why I started the thread here.

gandalf

r3nu4l wrote: »

That's all well and good but all Admins are discussing this topic (and have been for a while) and as such can reply to you as and when.


We are all aware of your past contributions as Mod and CMod and while that is admired and respected it does not mean that you somehow have more of a right to a reply from DeVore than any other user, Mod or Admin on this site. If DeVore chooses to respond, he will. Just like any other Admin.

Hmm you seem to be getting very defensive there. I understand that people have other things to do with their lives. I understand DeVore is very busy at the moment especially this week in fact, I talked to him on Saturday night at a function. Now I could have brought this up with him face to face but that would have been wrong in a couple of different ways. Firstly it was a social function and secondly a lot more people than me are interested in what he has to say and it is only fair to them that it be done here.

I was prompted to partake in the feedback thread and here because I wasn't the only person who had these concerns. As DeVore is active in the Politics boards I was interested in his perspective.

Okay, I can see where you are coming from, that's something the politics mods need to discuss (if they haven't already.). However, I think that the modding recently and in the future will show you that there's no intent to dumb-down the forum.

Here's hoping so.

As a former politics mod yourself you know full well that it's not just anyone that can mod the politics forum. We had lots of suggestions for mods and turned down quite a few for various reasons before finally selecting new mods. It's NOT something we were going to rush into just to get some more bodies in to snip posts.

I realise that I have been involved in getting new mods into Politics and other forums on numerous occasions. However I don't agree that a time lag of at least one month to appoint mods is acceptable on one of the main forums on boards.

Actually, those two Admins have taken the decision to stay out of this discussion (for now) because they don't want their opinion as politics mods to colour the Admin decision on the forum or your questions. If they participated it would be unfair to the Mods of other forums who don't also have that facility to decide on policy.

I have no problem with Sceptre or Oscarbravo expressing their views here. I count both as friends.

See above for why they aren't involved.

I was referring to the situation that prompted the original feedback thread from dlofnep and specifically this post. Apologies should have included that link here earlier.

Things change as the site grows, it will never be the same as it was in Feb 1998 when you joined, or even Jan 2006 when I joined. It will always grow and develop. What you call low discourse could be called 'greater openness'. However as I said, we recognise the problem and are working on it and have already made changes.

Actually my join date should be around 1995 when this was originally Quake.ie from whose womb boards.ie was born in 1998

What seems to be happening is people are mistakenly thinking I am looking for College Debate Society level of discourse. This is a misconception I just want people to post reasoned and thought out posts when starting and replying to threads in Politics as they have always been expected to do. Is that wrong?

Definitely don't have a problem with it. It's always good to have issues raised when there's no agenda behind it and only genuine concern. You should also bear in mind that you weren't the only one modding the forum at that time or who brought it to that standard, in fact a current Admin also modded it at the same time as you yet does not seem to get acknowledged. That Admin is involved in the discussion and I'm sure you'll be glad to know that.[/QUOTE]

I never said that I was the lone ranger of standards in Politics in fact bonkey had an even bigger role than me at the time he modded politics of moulding those standards and there are quite a few others who also did sterling work in shaping the mechanics of the politics forum. One of the drivers of me posting here is to ensure the work ALL the mods put in is recognised and is respected. Again is that wrong?

r3nu4l

gandalf wrote: »

Hmm you seem to be getting very defensive there.

Not at all, just highlighting the fact that while your past work is respected it doesn't make you any more special than any other user*. We can't show favouritism to a particular group of users, I hope you understand that.

*That said, you are one of the original members of the site and that is always something special imo.

However I don't agree that a time lag of at least one month to appoint mods is acceptable on one of the main forums on boards.

I never said it was acceptable, I outlined what happened. We certainly need to be very careful in selecting mods for the politics forum (all forums really) but politics is a very difficult forum to mod and therefore the selection process takes longer. One way to improve that process would be for the politics mods to have a constant list of 'potentials' to hand that could be vetted earlier so that if a new mod was needed we were ready to send someone in.

I was referring to the situation that prompted the original feedback thread from dlofnep and specifically this post. Apologies should have included that link here earlier.

Aye, well AFK time is something that we've had problems with in other forums too. We have looked into that and made some changes where appropriate. My suggestion above is also worth having us implement asap imo.

Actually my join date should be around 1995 when this was originally Quake.ie from whose womb boards.ie was born in 1998

As I said you joined this site (boards.ie) in Feb 1998, I'm absolutely correct. quake.ie and boards.ie are not the same. One was born from the other as you say.
/pedant

What seems to be happening is people are mistakenly thinking I am looking for College Debate Society level of discourse. This is a misconception I just want people to post reasoned and thought out posts when starting and replying to threads in Politics as they have always been expected to do. Is that wrong?

Not wrong at all and now that the new mods are in place hopefully the signal to noise ratio will improve. However, you will always get people posting in the forum who are not politically astute and sometimes those posters need to be gently encouraged to make their points in a way more suitable to the forum rather than given a bashing with the banhammer.

One of the drivers of me posting here is to ensure the work ALL the mods put in is recognised and is respected. Again is that wrong?

It is recognised, it is respected but equally this site is changing as it grows ever more popular, as such, we can encourage a higher level of debate but there will always be those incapable of such standards. Eventually they will be excluded.

As bonkey and I both said already, at this time in Ireland, everybody wants to have a say on the economic and political climate. Unfortunately that exacerbates the noise level on the forum and more signal is drowned out. Give it time with the new mods in place.

As for the point that one particular mod is more lenient towards those with a slightly lower standard of posting, well to be fair, everyone is different and mods are not clones, they all have different opinions. Give the forum more time now that the new mods are in place and if the level of discourse remains a problem for you then discuss it with the mods or CMods before coming back here.