How hard can it really be??

theoneeyedman

Hi,
not a rugby expert by any means and this question is bound to annoy some people, but it is asked in all seriousness and is something that has always puzzled me. time and time again (last 2 weeks are good examples with cronin nd rory best) i see hookers not able to hit their targets accuratly from the throw-in. how hard is it really to throw in a ball what 15/20 meters rom a standing start without anyone interfering with you? surely this is a basic motor skill that can be thought/learned easily enough? With players now full time surely this is an area that should be adressed easily enough with a bit of work.

WeeBushy

While not defending some of the performances that our hookers have displayed at the lineout, it is harder than it looks.

At international level the throw has to be pretty much perfect. This includes timing, height, power etc. And as you are throwing the ball to where somebody will be, not where they are right now, its not like passing a ball normally so is more difficult than it looks.

As well as that, hookers can sometime unfairly get blamed for bad lineouts that are not their fault. If the jumper doesn't time his jump right, or the opposition get in there first to steal/disrupt the ball, it can look like it was the hookers fault, when it isn't always.

So it is harder and more compex than just throwing a ball 15/20 meters. However, in saying that, our hookers haven't been throwing to the best of their abilities. The blame at the moment has to be on everyone however - hookers, jumpers and lifters, and imo primarily with whoever has been calling the line outs (MOD, mostly).

phog

Does every porfessional soccer player score a penalty, does every golfer putt a 10ft putt, etc, etc.

JustinDee

Yeah its easy. No such thing as opposition pressurising and nothing in the mix as psychological.
If it looks simps from an armchair, its got to be easy on the field

thomond2006

JustinDee wrote: »

Yeah its easy. No such thing as opposition pressurising and nothing in the mix as psychological.
If it looks simps from an armchair, its got to be easy on the field

No need for a high horse comment like that tbh. The OP said he wasn't a rugby expert. You should just explain it to him and not be a smartarse.

stephen_n

Get a rugby ball, go down to a basketball court stand 10m back from the basket and try and hit the square every time for say five throws! This will give you a fairly good idea of how hard it is! That of course is without the added distractions of jumpers going up in front of you and that box being a piece of blank air that you have to estimate where the jumper will be!

theKramer

Did anyone notice when Cronin came on for Best, you could see his triceps shaking, he was so nervous

JustinDee

thomond2006 wrote: »

No need for a high horse comment like that tbh. The OP said he wasn't a rugby expert. You should just explain it to him and not be a smartarse.

Fair enough. Maybe I'm a little sarky today so apologies to the poster.
Good luck with the modding, by the way.

thomond2006

JustinDee wrote: »

Fair enough. Maybe I'm a little sarky today so apologies to the poster.
Good luck with the modding, by the way.

theoneeyedman

stephen_n wrote: »

Get a rugby ball, go down to a basketball court stand 10m back from the basket and try and hit the square every time for say five throws! This will give you a fairly good idea of how hard it is! That of course is without the added distractions of jumpers going up in front of you and that box being a piece of blank air that you have to estimate where the jumper will be!

Ya look i have played a good bit of ball sports and i do know what's involved in hitting the target with a ball, and of couse there are physcological aspects to it/pressure etc. but for lads for whom this is their day job i would expect them to have a higher level of accuracy.....looking at cronin in particular he appears to be a very talented player, is athletic, can tackle, pass the ball well even unde pressure as he showed last nithe but i still fail to understand how this aspect cannot be almost perfected with practice-

durkadurka

JustinDee wrote: »

Fair enough. Maybe I'm a little sarky today so apologies to the poster.
Good luck with the modding, by the way.

Just today?

wonton

theKramer wrote: »

Did anyone notice when Cronin came on for Best, you could see his triceps shaking, he was so nervous

i have hoped in the past that cronin stays with connacht but i think the difference in playing levels and pressure may be too big to be able to come from the sports ground to the aviva, imagine how nervous he would have been had it been stade the france.

and the chap was sitting on the bench in his tracksuit one minute and throwing in a line out the next.

stephen_n

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Ya look i have played a good bit of ball sports and i do know what's involved in hitting the target with a ball, and of couse there are physcological aspects to it/pressure etc. but for lads for whom this is their day job i would expect them to have a higher level of accuracy.....looking at cronin in particular he appears to be a very talented player, is athletic, can tackle, pass the ball well even unde pressure as he showed last nithe but i still fail to understand how this aspect cannot be almost perfected with practice-

The simple answer is the amount of variables involved! You'll see when hookers change in a game it impacts on the jumpers as they have to re-time their jumps of the new player! The new Zealand hooker got away with some brutally crooked throws yesterday but as we didn't really contest their line out he hit his jumpers! But they attacked ours!

Clareman

First of all I don't know what the hooker throws the ball in, he should be in 1 of the lifting pods imvho, either have the scrum half throw the ball in or have the winger for that side get it in.

Anyway, if you want to try throwing the ball, go down to a goal post and pick a point on it at various heights, all above your head, once you can hit your point on a consistent basis start moving back and hitting different points, that should give you an idea of hitting different points in the line. Once you have this down, get your timing down, could to 10, then count to 7, then hit your point, do different combinations of counts. Once you have all this down, get someone else to tell you the point, distance and timing for you to hit and be able to do it. Once you have this down you can throw a lineout.

Couple the lineout duties with the other technical aspects of hooking (scruming, rucking, passing) it is 1 of the most difficult positions to play. Fla is considered out best hooker for lineouts, but he spends every training session throwing to PoC and DoC so he knows the way the operation goes inside and out, it's difficult to have a hooker come in that doesn't play with any of the other players in the line out, but the more game time Cronin gets the better he will get.

Cpt_Blackbeard

wonton wrote: »

i have hoped in the past that cronin stays with connacht but i think the difference in playing levels and pressure may be too big to be able to come from the sports ground to the aviva, imagine how nervous he would have been had it been stade the france.

and the chap was sitting on the bench in his tracksuit one minute and throwing in a line out the next.

Cronin only ever went to Connacht to gain experience. the idea was that he would come back to Munster but that is starting to look less likely. Munster, as usual, have an abundance of good hookers (most likely because they tend to be failed backrows due to height or whatever).

I can't see the Irish management allowing Flannery, Varley and Cronin (Ireland's best 3 hookers) to be at the same club tbh. Add to that Fogarty and Sherry and you've 5 hookers that are at least ML level.

Hopefully Varley will continue his improvement and join the list of great Irish hookers who went to Munchins

irishbucsfan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Flannery, Varley and Cronin (Ireland's best 3 hookers)

:pac:

Cpt_Blackbeard

irishbucsfan wrote: »

:pac:

We'll call it red tinted glasses if you want :rolleyes:, but I don't rate Best (Although he played well yesterday when he was on the field).I've always though that he was the token Ulster man in the team who was played due to his "leadership". All the players I mentioned offer aspects that he doesn't:

-Fla's darts are pretty much unparalled
-Cronin is immense in the loose
-Varley is just a better player, his darts aren't as good as Fla's and he isn't quite as good in the loose as Cronin, but still ahead of Best imo

Sundy

Anybody who thinks the hookers job isnt hard has clearly never had to do it! The only tougher job on the pitch is goal kicking.

So many variables at work for the throw, wind, rain, timing, pressure, mind games, confidence, the opposition hooker baiting you, poor grip underfoot, wet ball, decoding the call, making the call, changing the call mid-lineout.

And not in the hookers control; the jump, the lift, the timing of the jump, wrong jump position, opposition cracking the calls, the catch.

and im sure ive left out some but its a tough job and way too easy to blame thehooker for a misfuncting lineout.

Scambuster

This is the most ridiculous question. These guys train every day of the week at their job and are the top .001% in their positions. If they can't hit their marks 100% every time then you can bet the man watching on the tv won't do any better.

irishbucsfan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

We'll call it red tinted glasses if you want :rolleyes:, but I don't rate Best (Although he played well yesterday when he was on the field).I've always though that he was the token Ulster man in the team who was played due to his "leadership". All the players I mentioned offer aspects that he doesn't:

-Fla's darts are pretty much unparalled
-Cronin is immense in the loose
-Varley is just a better player, his darts aren't as good as Fla's and he isn't quite as good in the loose as Cronin, but still ahead of Best imo

I personally would think that Flannery is far and away the best (although his darts are certainly not unparalleled). Best is FAR better than either of the other two however. Although I think Varley is an excellent prospect and Cronin will be a better player when he's ready.

To put it in perspective for you, we haven't conceded 1 penalty while scrummaging with Best on the pitch, but the count with Cronin on is in double figures, mostly from LHs. Cronin also had trouble with the lineout against NZ, which I think shows that the problems were more down to the jumpers than the hookers themselves. I made a post in the SA thread going through Best's throws individually, and his throwing was not poor that day. He threw 3 bad darts all day. The calling of the lineout was atrocious however.

The gulf in class between Best and the other two is far bigger than the gulf in class between Fla and Best. That is evidenced by Kidney's seeming refusal to use Cronin off the bench when Best is playing

Cpt_Blackbeard

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I
To put it in perspective for you, we haven't conceded 1 penalty while scrummaging with Best on the pitch, but the count with Cronin on is in double figures, mostly from LHs.

The gulf in class between Best and the other two is far bigger than the gulf in class between Fla and Best. That is evidenced by Kidney's seeming refusal to use Cronin off the bench when Best is playing

Thats not true at all, Best played most if not all of the SA match and we conceded tonnes of penalties in the scrums. This was mostly Healy's fault but we still conceed penalities.

Best is a better scrummager than the other, but offers nothing around the field in comparison to them. There is no point playing a hooker whose best at scrummaging when he is with Healy and Buckley (The current first choice props), when they are on the field because of their ball carrying ability. If Kidney wanting a scrummaging front row he would play Court and Ross.

irishbucsfan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Thats not true at all, Best played most if not all of the SA match and we conceded tonnes of penalties in the scrums. This was mostly Healy's fault but we still conceed penalities.

I may be slightly off, but I know for a fact we didn't concede a penalty with Buckley on the field. For some reason I had it in my head that Best went off at the same time as him (mixing up loads of stuff), but even so, we didn't commit that many penalties.

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Best is a better scrummager than the other, but offers nothing around the field in comparison to them. There is no point playing a hooker whose best at scrummaging when he is with Healy and Buckley (The current first choice props), when they are on the field because of their ball carrying ability. If Kidney wanting a scrummaging front row he would play Court and Ross.

Best doesn't offer "nothing" around the field. He's shown that plenty of times for Ireland. It's fashionable now to say Best isn't a good player ever since his injury last year, but he's a great player.

And for being a "non-scrummaging" front row, Healy, Best, Buckley did not concede a single penalty against SA. They were called up for early engagements twice, which is often more of a 2nd Row, No. 8 issue.


EDIT: Just checked, and we conceded 1 penalty in the scrums against South Africa, not sure if it was while Best was on the pitch... but still, compared to the dozen or so we've conceded with Cronin on the pitch this series it shows that he isn't good enough to start at this level yet.

ormondprop

just noticed that nobody mentioned about ball speed and lob for different throws, its not as simple as hitting a target like the square on a basketball ring, to make it realistic youd want something to block the target at different heights so you have to lob the ball over the obstacle and still hit the target

d'Oracle

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Hi,
not a rugby expert by any means and this question is bound to annoy some people, but it is asked in all seriousness and is something that has always puzzled me. time and time again (last 2 weeks are good examples with cronin nd rory best) i see hookers not able to hit their targets accuratly from the throw-in. how hard is it really to throw in a ball what 15/20 meters rom a standing start without anyone interfering with you? surely this is a basic motor skill that can be thought/learned easily enough? With players now full time surely this is an area that should be adressed easily enough with a bit of work.

Like any particular skill in any game some people are better at it than others.
It is hard to accurately throw a ball into a lineout. Especially under game conditions. You have to put the right amount of pace and loft to get it to the jumper at the right height in the right position. It has to fly straight down the middle and in a manner that the jumper will easily catch it, rather than waving around the place. Often this can be a largely moving target.

It is not a basic motor skill, basic motor skills would be just throwing something any old way.

daveharnett

d'Oracle wrote: »

Like any particular skill in any game some people are better at it than others.

This is why I don't understand why the task is given exclusively to hookers.
The hooker doesn't have to be the lineout-thrower any more than the outhalf has to be the goal-kicker. If I had my way, the 3 forwards in the squad with the most aptitude would be trained to throw in regardless of their jersey.

allprops

daveharnett wrote: »

This is why I don't understand why the task is given exclusively to hookers.
The hooker doesn't have to be the lineout-thrower any more than the outhalf has to be the goal-kicker. If I had my way, the 3 forwards in the squad with the most aptitude would be trained to throw in regardless of their jersey.

Agree with this. The French used to have a sh throw the ball in. Personally the most important selection criteria for any front row should be the ability to scrummage. This idea of a prop or hooker who can't scrummage but is "good in the loose" is a bit like having a whore who can juggle. It's nice to look at but it's not what she's there for!

d'Oracle

On one of my school teams a Flanker threw it in.

I would contend that as the straight put in isn't enforced anymore, the Hookers role in the scrum isn't exactly that important anyway.

Daragh86

daveharnett wrote: »

This is why I don't understand why the task is given exclusively to hookers.
The hooker doesn't have to be the lineout-thrower any more than the outhalf has to be the goal-kicker. If I had my way, the 3 forwards in the squad with the most aptitude would be trained to throw in regardless of their jersey.

It's all well and good saying that but when you take a 7 out of the lineout to throw the ball in is the hooker who steps into the lineout for him going to be able to do a 7's job once the ball has gone? Take a winger, you reckon a hooker will be up to the job on the wing? Everyone has their particular job to do in a lineout and the following 3/4 rucks and that job tends to be specific to the number on their back so take one of them specialists out and replace them with a hooker you more than likely won't get the result your looking for in the following 3/4 phases. I'd concede to having a prop throw the ball in but other than that is a no go in my books.

As for how difficult is it to hit the jumper. In pretty basic lineout calls there would be an average of about 100 options and variations. In a good lineout there should be 5 players capable of jumping which means 5 different targets. Depending on opposition positioning and contesting a hooker will have to vary the speed, angle and lob of the ball. As people have said previsouly the hooker has to hit a target that isn't going to be there until the ball leaves his hands generally. There may be cancellations or variations on already made calls during a lineout if opposition is on the ball. All that and more without even taking into account things like weather conditions, bad jump, bad lift, bad timing on both jump and lift.

Give the poor hookers a break!

Tim Robbins

I agree with other posters that too many times the hooker gets blamed when the lineout goes wrong. There are many components to it, the lifter, the jumper, the timing, the call and how well the other team are defending.

Throwing a rugby ball into a lineout would I guess be harding than a free throw in b - ball because of the timing aspect.

You are trying to hit a moving target rather than a static one. It's also to throw a rugby ball like that than an american football.

Badgermonkey

As an aside can any Munster men or women tell me why Jerry Flannery was 'discovered' so late? Wasn't it an injury to Frankie Sheahan that gave Flannery his chance? Seems an odd indictment of the system.

How / why was he so unfancied by Deccie at Munster when he was clearly a better rugby player than his rivals for the position?

theKramer

He spent a few years at Connacht, before moving back to Munster. He wouldnt have gotten much gametime at Munster in 2006 if it were not for Frankie Sheahan getting injured. Flannery then took his chance.
You can probably put it down to usual Irish (Kidneys) conservativeness

toomevara

Badgermonkey wrote: »

As an aside can any Munster men or women tell me why Jerry Flannery was 'discovered' so late? Wasn't it an injury to Frankie Sheahan that gave Flannery his chance? Seems an odd indictment of the system.

Alas that IS the system in Ireland all too often....as I've said before genuine prospects only get a shot through injury/suspension....far too conservative when compared to the SH.

Flash92

Lineout throwing doesn't get the respect it deserves as a skill, if anything it should be likened to place kicking. The timing and accuracy have to be pin point - an inch too short and the opposition can take it, a half a second too late, it can go over your jumper's head. Especially if a cancel is called, they lift a jumper giving the hooker minimal time to react, to try get the throw in quickly and composed, which can be very difficult to do. Factor in conditions too, which can make lineouts a nightmare. Wind, rain, have a huge effect.

Trojan

I'm a hooker at J4, so I haven't gotten specialist training in years, but I do practice myself (against posts) every so often.

I find that I can throw either very fast, or very accurately, but not both. I throw single handed, have tried 2 hand technique but not comfortable or as accurate (but definitely faster ball).

Lot of factors, the quality of ball depends on throw technique, arm strength, wind, jumper speed, lifter technique, opposition type (are they jumping or waiting to disrupt?). is it straight in or a lob (to get over opposition at front), etc.

daveharnett

Daragh86 wrote: »

Take a winger, you reckon a hooker will be up to the job on the wing?

To be fair, I didn't suggest that backs (other than perhaps the SH) be considered for throw-in duties.

Daragh86 wrote: »

It's all well and good saying that but when you take a 7 out of the lineout to throw the ball in is the hooker who steps into the lineout for him going to be able to do a 7's job once the ball has gone?

It's a good point - you probably don't want to move your seven another 12 meters from the first point of contact. On the other hand, I can see a benefit to a reasonably tall backrow/secondrow doing the job. The higher 'launch point' should make throws toward the back that bit harder to intercept?

siltirocker

toomevara wrote: »

Alas that IS the system in Ireland all too often....as I've said before genuine prospects only get a shot through injury/suspension....far too conservative when compared to the SH.

John Muldoon case in point. Got a chance due to injury and gave us the best performance i witnessed in green this year against the Baa-Baas. Then he broke his arm and will never get another meaningful cap(/won't be at the world cup) no matter how well he plays. That's how i see it.