Judgment Day - Scanning results

reilig

I lamented a bit on here last september about the amount of cows that did not hold in calf and continuously repeated. Yesterday we scanned them. We reconed from seeing them come in heat over the last month or 2 that we had at least 8 not in calf. We were pleasantly surprised yesterday when all but 2 scanned in calf.

Has anyone experienced this?? 4 of our cows and 2 heifers that continuously showed signs of being in heat over the last 8 weeks were scanned to be in calf at least 3 months. Are there any possible causes??

pakalasa

My AI guy, who's at it donkey years, told me the same thing this year when I had a lot of repeats. He said he has seen cows bulling when they were in calf. At the time i was a bit dubious of it, taught he was having me on. Maybe there is a lot of truth to it.;)

Feargal as Luimneach

Better feeding is the reason there are less repeats this year IMO. With the good summer grass growth (also grass quality) has been far superior to last year.
The last couple of years have been bad. The grass quality as a result was poor and the silage crap also. When nutrition is bad, cowes don't go back in calf as well.

bogman_bass

we had a cow that ca,e bulling every 3 weks without fail includuing once when she was round 3 or 4 days before calving!

Milton09

Saw something like this once before in a small dairy herd. One cow was continuously showing signs of heat by standing when mounted by other cows. (No stock bull)

Turned out the other cows were in heat and she was standing to get her tail scratched, she wasn't in heat and was in calf.

BeeDI

reilig wrote: »

I lamented a bit on here last september about the amount of cows that did not hold in calf and continuously repeated. Yesterday we scanned them. We reconed from seeing them come in heat over the last month or 2 that we had at least 8 not in calf. We were pleasantly surprised yesterday when all but 2 scanned in calf.

Has anyone experienced this?? 4 of our cows and 2 heifers that continuously showed signs of being in heat over the last 8 weeks were scanned to be in calf at least 3 months. Are there any possible causes??

I had one big charolais cow, show full standing heat last January. I thought she would have been in calf minimum 3 months.
So I decided to cull her. Put her in the shed, fed her add lib silage and few kgs nuts. Just as she was getting to the condition level where I was thinking I should call the factory agent, I began to get the feeling she was in calf, just by looking at her.
Had the vet handle her, very experienced man. He says "she's definitely in calf, but at the same time, I wouldn't think she is up to 4 months as you say she is!!
Kept her back, on restricted ration. Let her out of the shed mid march with another cow on bare ground. One week later, she is showing standing heat again:mad: Mad bulling, bellowing, tail out:(
Kept her on anyway. She threw twin calfs first week July:D:D Crazy!

pakalasa

Has anyone noticed that cows in calf give off a very mild heat 3 weeks after going in calf......or am I imagining things?
I noticed it this year when I had a chin-ball marker on a young teaser bull. A cow would be bulling and the other cow (from 3 wks previous) would be marked too but not really showing the normal signs. Happened me more than once this year. I would put both cows in for AI and tell the AI guy that I was unsure of the 2nd cow. He would then say that she was not on heat.
Happened too with cows on their own with no other cow bulling.

morning delight

pakalasa wrote: »

Has anyone noticed that cows in calf give off a very mild heat 3 weeks after going in calf......or am I imagining things?
I noticed it this year when I had a chin-ball marker on a young teaser bull. A cow would be bulling and the other cow (from 3 wks previous) would be marked too but not really showing the normal signs. Happened me more than once this year. I would put both cows in for AI and tell the AI guy that I was unsure of the 2nd cow. He would then say that she was not on heat.
Happened too with cows on their own with no other cow bulling.

Yeah i've noticed this. The only reason I can think of is the ovaries are still active, but the eggs are just not ovulating. Female hormones, I'll never claim to understand them;)

pakalasa

Great, so some of my cows might be in calf 3 wks longer than I thought.

That's the trouble with a young teaser bull, it can be actually harder to spot true 'standing heats', as he's more than eager and also shows interest in them for a lot longer time.

morning delight

pakalasa wrote: »

That's the trouble with a young teaser bull, it can be actually harder to spot true 'standing heats', as he's more than eager and also shows interest in them for a lot longer time.

I'm finding he's great for the most of them, but there is the odd one who seems to show for 2 days, or maybe is marked slightly today, and marked again 2 days later! Are having this kind of thing happening as well?

pakalasa

morning delight wrote: »

I'm finding he's great for the most of them, but there is the odd one who seems to show for 2 days, or maybe is marked slightly today, and marked again 2 days later! Are having this kind of thing happening as well?

Ya, I know what you're saying.
The thing is just because the cow is marked, it doesn't mean for definite that she was in standing heat.
For example, I would check the cows last thing at night, nothing happening. Then in the morning, the teaser bull would be trying to mount a cow, but she would not be standing. He would have marked her a fair bit. The problem is I dont know if she is coming into, or going out of heat.
If I leave her then she wont be AI'd till the following morning. If I do her that day then she will be AI'd in the afternoon which may be too early.

It has happened both ways with me. I'd AI that day, let her out and she'd by standing that evening. Or I'd leave her and then in the evening, the bull would be showing no interest. I'd Ai her teh following morning anyway, but propably too late.
If you were doing your own AI, it would be a lot easier. The long days in June/July help aswell, I suppose.

I used a bullock before with a chin marker and I think it was easier, in that he would only show interest at, or near, standing heat.

blue5000

Maybe you guys should tell teagasc, grange about this! might help them get a few more cows in calf next year.......:D

morning delight

blue5000 wrote: »

Maybe you guys should tell teagasc, grange about this! might help them get a few more cows in calf next year.......:D

You're spot on there blue. I see in Derrypatrick they only introduced a teaser roughly after 2 rounds of AI! I'd be lost without the teaser. I tried the heat detector pads and had much less success with them.

Probably the best thing is if in doubt, AI. An extra straw or two is cheaper than no calf. And... keep a record of the ones that show for long or intermitent periods for next year!

morning delight

pakalasa wrote: »

The thing is just because the cow is marked, it doesn't mean for definite that she was in standing heat.

I suppose it's better than not knowing at all! At least it indicates she's probably not in-calf and needs another straw - just the timing is the tricky part.

Like you say, I sometimes get one that I know for sure and certain is not in and maybe there is one single mark, maybe up around the shoulder, i.e. the bull chancing his arm but the cow runs a mile from him.

Generally when they're in they have a nice few marks, including one good one along the back indicating she stood and he dismounted slowly.

On my first round of AI I think I've had rough a 55% success rate. Happy enough with this as I synchronised some of these with coils and estrumate.

pakalasa

Dont get me wrong. I'd still recomend the teaser to anyone.
I just wanted to make that point about knowing the time of standing heat - you still have to do the detective work.:D

Bitten & Hisses

Same thing has happened here every year too. I have had cows show heat every 3 weeks like clockwork, with the other cows and stronger weanlings trying to mount them. However, when the stock bull was with them, he never showed any interest in them, leading me to question whether he was performing at all. When the cows started calving, I realised that he must've known something that the others didn't!:D

blue5000

Lads it looks like all the bad things I said about Derrypatrick herd have come back to give me a kick in the a*se, scanned yesterday and I've 22% empty cows.

I knew I had a problem with my older bull so let a young bull in with cows for 3 weeks in Oct. He picked up a good few, but not them all. Scanner said to do the empty ones again in about 6 wks as some more might show up in calf. What do ye think?

5live

Will you be keeping the later ones? It will probably make a difference in the mart if they are sold as some buyers will want them in calf if they are suckling but will not if they are fattening.

blue5000

Yeah I'll definitly keep the later ones, they are in calf to a blonde and I have a pretty good setup in the yard so they can be left on the cows for the early part of next winter. Empty ones; will fatten the most fleshy ones now and let the rest graze till june.

morning delight

blue5000 wrote: »

Lads it looks like all the bad things I said about Derrypatrick herd have come back to give me a kick in the a*se, scanned yesterday and I've 22% empty cows.

I knew I had a problem with my older bull so let a young bull in with cows for 3 weeks in Oct. He picked up a good few, but not them all. Scanner said to do the empty ones again in about 6 wks as some more might show up in calf. What do ye think?

If the bull came out on ~21st Oct then they should be 8 weeks in-calf minimum. Scanning should pick those up.

He has a valid point though. Another 6 weeks they'll be very obviously in-calf and it's also 2 cycles to watch out for ones that come bulling as well. Can you seperate the empty cows and just watch them like a hawk for bulling behaviour? Even a bit of tail paint?

blue5000

Ya will seperate them out and start fattening them this weekend, lucky enough have maize silage and somewhere seperate to put them. I had a look on icbf website and the bulls sire lawson ford bagatelle is poor for daughter fertility, must be low enough for the sons too. I didn't have any problems with him the previous 3 years though.