Emm, Labour?

KidKeith89

I don't know a lot about Labour's policies and it seems like a few of my friends are gonna vote for them. And I'm sure a few folks saw Pat Rabbitte's outburst last night on PT and thought, "wow, I'm voting for those guys!"

But can anyone tell my why I should vote for Labour, or even Fine Gael? Don't get me wrong, I hate FF and everyone knows they need to be kicked out of Government now. But considering the IMF bailout, the 2011 Budget and the €15 billion Four-Year Budget Plan, what are Labour or FG gonna do to get this country back on its feet? Or are Labour and FG just making the most of a situation to try to get into government?

I'm sure you've seen this thread by now.

Cavehill Red

In before 'they're all as bad as each other'.

thetonynator

We need complete political reform, a new list system, new parties, new leadership, new ideas.

We need an end to parochial politics, political dynasties, inherited seats, brown envelope donations, fianna fail, tents at the galway races.

Faustino

I've always had time for Labour on account of Ruari Quinn.. he's an absolute gentleman and I would trust him more than most other politicians

Pat Rabbite seems like a genuine guy as well.

I do agree though.. none of our parties really differ from each other when it actually gets down to policy. Labour made a mess of things when they were last in charge so they can't exactly be trusted either.. on a personal level yes, but not on policy.

Revolution9

Fine Gael, like Fianna Fail, are Civil War dinosaurs. Too much of their support comes from people who vote for them because their family took one particular side in a debate in the early 1920s. Silly stuff but it's true. I'd take them over Fianna Fail in a heartbeat though.

I'd love a Labour Taoiseach soon. Finally Ireland could show it's trying to move away from the aged and ruined politcal system we have.

thetonynator

Revolution9 wrote: »

I'd love a Labour Taoiseach soon. Finally Ireland could show it's trying to move away from the aged and ruined politcal system we have.

Unfortunately tha also means labour in charge of the budget and the only idea they've had is a third rate of tax. And i saw in the indo last week that this tax band aimed at earners over 100k, would have to be an 84% tax to make up just this years budget requirement. Labour would not cut public sector pay or welfare payments so Labour will only work in a coalition. The only possibility i see is a labout fg coalition.

So we could have a labour taoiseach, but as long as they're not in charge of the money its ok!!

Revolution9

thetonynator wrote: »

Unfortunately tha also means labour in charge of the budget and the only idea they've had is a third rate of tax. And i saw in the indo last week that this tax band aimed at earners over 100k, would have to be an 84% tax to make up just this years budget requirement. Labour would not cut public sector pay or welfare payments so Labour will only work in a coalition. The only possibility i see is a labout fg coalition.

So we could have a labour taoiseach, but as long as they're not in charge of the money its ok!!

Well I did have the assumption in mind that the IMF would essentially be in charge of our finances by the time FF falls, and with the upcoming FF budget already approved in the Dail. And I would prefer a coalition myself with Labour holding more seats than FG.

ArtSmart

Faustino wrote: »

I've always had time for Labour on account of Ruari Quinn.. he's an absolute gentleman and I would trust him more than most other politicians

Pat Rabbite seems like a genuine guy as well.

I do agree though.. none of our parties really differ from each other when it actually gets down to policy. Labour made a mess of things when they were last in charge so they can't exactly be trusted either.. on a personal level yes, but not on policy.

my memory is not what is used to be . can you elaborate?

KidKeith89

ArtSmart wrote: »

my memory is not what is used to be . can you elaborate?

Yeah, what exactly did they do?

femur61

I always associated Labour with trade unions so on that basis I never voted for them.

Cavehill Red

thetonynator wrote: »

Unfortunately tha also means labour in charge of the budget and the only idea they've had is a third rate of tax. And i saw in the indo last week that this tax band aimed at earners over 100k, would have to be an 84% tax to make up just this years budget requirement. Labour would not cut public sector pay or welfare payments so Labour will only work in a coalition. The only possibility i see is a labout fg coalition.

So we could have a labour taoiseach, but as long as they're not in charge of the money its ok!!

Actually, I'd trust Joan Burton before nearly anyone else in the Dail as Min of Finance.
But in the event of a Labour Taoiseach occurring, FG would likely insist on Tanaiste and Finance as part of a coalition deal. I could live with Richard Bruton as Min of Finance in those circumstances.

Cassidy28

They are all the same,clear them all out and get people like Michael O Leary in instead,then this Country would be going along nicely and people would have money to spend,most people would be much happier at the end of the day

Revolution9

Cassidy28 wrote: »

They are all the same,clear them all out and get people like Michael O Leary in instead,then this Country would be going along nicely and people would have money to spend,most people would be much happier at the end of the day

Michael O'Leary?
He's exactly the type of hungry selfish capitalist that got us into this mess in the first place.

HellFireClub

When Gilmore came on the Late Late Show the other night and said he used to be a trade union leader, that was my mind made up, a trade unionist running the country, I can't imagine more dangerous...

Inquitus

HellFireClub wrote: »

When Gilmore came on the Late Late Show the other night and said he used to be a trade union leader, that was my mind made up, a trade unionist running the country, I can't imagine more dangerous...

At last, something we can agree on!

Cassidy28

HellFireClub wrote: »

When Gilmore came on the Late Late Show the other night and said he used to be a trade union leader, that was my mind made up, a trade unionist running the country, I can't imagine more dangerous...

Gilmore is like a waffling dog waiting around the corner for something to happen,well they are all the same really all out to feather their own nest,if Gilmore got in power not a hole lot would change

zootroid

The last time Fine Gael were in power, there were some noticeable achievements. The economy was on the up, they introduced free 3rd level education (good at the time, but needs to be changed now), they set up the criminal assets bureau, and they introduced our low rate of corporation tax as a means of attracting foreign direct investment. Above all, John Bruton was and is much more of a statesman than anything Fianna Fail could offer. Richard Bruton is the same, and of all who occupy Leinster House, he is the one I would like to become Taoiseach.

I would hesitate against voting Labour, as they traditionally been very close to the unions. Plus they have spoken very little about their policies. But I do have a lot of respect for Pat Rabbitte and Ruairi Quinn. In fact I think it's a shame Gilmore took over the leadership of the party.

Labour ^^ Champagne Socialists.
I think Pat Rabbitte rocks though and enjoyed his tirade against Carey

Wont vote for them though, they wanted to cut less than the 6 billion this budget which would only mean we have to pay more in interest in the future. Interest payments on the national debt will be what chokes us.

I would be upset with anyone who votes FF
Dont particularly like FG and I think this is the problem for alot of people - few of the parties are good enough.

HellFireClub

Deleted User wrote: »

Labour ^^ Champagne Socialists.
I think Pat Rabbitte rocks though and enjoyed his tirade against Carey

Wont vote for them though, they wanted to cut less than the 6 billion this budget which would only mean we have to pay more in interest in the future. Interest payments on the national debt will be what chokes us.

I would be upset with anyone who votes FF
Dont particularly like FG and I think this is the problem for alot of people - few of the parties are good enough.

That's not a job it's a charity position, says no salary!

HellFireClub

HellFireClub wrote: »

That's not a job it's a charity position, says no salary!

WPP scheme - Labour FULLY endorse it if they are hiring under the scheme themseleves
Effectively removes entry level jobs changing them to WPP1 and WPP2 jobs which the state fund through FAS
The last thing the state needs is to be paying the wages of private sector companies

Sick joke, threads and threads about it over in the work and jobs forum

Revolution9

Revolution9 wrote: »

Michael O'Leary?
He's exactly the type of hungry selfish capitalist that got us into this mess in the first place.

Capitalism requires that businesses fail - banks would have failed under capitalism. What we have now is "capitalise the gains, socialise the losses". We do NOT have capitalism and we didnt have capitalism during the boom - remember all the state incentives to build? Section 23 which built the ghost estates!!

Under capitalism we wouldnt be paying for Anglo Irish Bank - they would have all lost their jobs. The crooks in Government decided to interfere with the market by propping them up. Bank recapitalisations ? State interference. NAMA? State interference of which Lenihan has stated his aim is to put a floor under house prices!!! Make the people pay more than is necessary!! And use state funds to do so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWlz1IKWfw4
^^^^^

TskTsk

thetonynator wrote: »

We need complete political reform, a new list system, new parties, new leadership, new ideas.

We need an end to parochial politics, political dynasties, inherited seats, brown envelope donations, fianna fail, tents at the galway races.

Reminds me of this...

"Well, we have to end apartheid for one. And slow down the nuclear arms race, stop terrorism and world hunger. We have to provide food and shelter for the homeless, and oppose racial discrimination and promote civil rights, while also promoting equal rights for women. We have to encourage a return to traditional moral values. Most importantly, we have to promote general social concern and less materialism in young people."

Patrick Bateman

Zynks

Having seen the Brazilian Workers party (equivalent to Labour here) facing the same skepticism in three elections only to eventually win and become the best government in the country's history, I can see why there can be a perception that Labour lacks policies: They know they will have to compromise if/when they come into power (even if it isn't a coalition government), since you cannot run a country based on a set of policies centered on unions, it just doesn't work.

However, they also know that if they open up and admit that they will shift policies they will loose many of their core supporters - and win many undecided.

I thin they have defined policies, but they also understand that declaring them might be risky, and for this reason they will not be clear enough about their intentions.

oceanclub

zootroid wrote: »

The last time Fine Gael were in power, there were some noticeable achievements. The economy was on the up

That possibly had something to do with Ruairi Quinn introducing the 12.5% corporation tax, a tax that it looks Fianna Fail are going to relinquish to other European powers because of their incompetence and corruption leads us to have an IMF/EU bailout.

The way some people go on here, you'd think Labour was being run by Kim Il Jong.

P.

Amhran Nua

oceanclub wrote: »

That possibly had something to do with Ruairi Quinn introducing the 12.5% corporation tax

The corporation tax had plenty of precedent in the manufacturing tax, its not something Labour pulled out of a hat. And the manufacturing tax was actually lower.

blue_steel

We've had 90 years of FF / FG and look where it has landed us.
Why would you NOT give labour a chance?!
Most successful countries vary between left and right wing governments, each serving as a balance on the other. That is exactly what Ireland needs. The civil war divide has unbalanced politics here for too long.

oceanclub

Amhran Nua wrote: »

The corporation tax had plenty of precedent in the manufacturing tax, its not something Labour pulled out of a hat. And the manufacturing tax was actually lower.

If it's not a big deal, then why's it - um - considered a big deal?

http://news.google.ie/news/search?aq=0&pz=1&cf=all&ned=en_ie&hl=en&q=ireland+corporation+tax

The manufacturing tax was brought in the 1950s. If it was so obvious, then why didn't Fianna Fail do it in the decades of power they had?

P.

thetonynator

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Actually, I'd trust Joan Burton before nearly anyone else in the Dail as Min of Finance.
But in the event of a Labour Taoiseach occurring, FG would likely insist on Tanaiste and Finance as part of a coalition deal. I could live with Richard Bruton as Min of Finance in those circumstances.

I've never been a big fan of joan burton, i would love to see richard bruton as finance minister but michael noonan looks more likely at this stage if kenny holds on to party leadership.

blue_steel wrote: »

We've had 90 years of FF / FG and look where it has landed us.
Why would you NOT give labour a chance?!
Most successful countries vary between left and right wing governments, each serving as a balance on the other. That is exactly what Ireland needs. The civil war divide has unbalanced politics here for too long.

Having read the opinions here, i think i would be prepared to give labour a chance.

Manach

Yes - but would the MNC gave Labour a chance?

Amhran Nua

oceanclub wrote: »

If it's not a big deal, then why's it - um - considered a big deal?

I didn't say it wan't a big deal, just that Labour didn't come up with it first. FF probably didn't do it because we weren't as fully involved in the EU, which didn't exist in the 50s, as we are today, or were then. Be that as it may, my main gripe with Labour at the moment is the thorough lack of policies they have come out with. If you support Labour, and I were to ask you right now, what will Labour do to get us out of this mess, what would you say?

jimmycrackcorm

Zynks wrote: »

Having seen the Brazilian Workers party (equivalent to Labour here) facing the same skepticism in three elections only to eventually win and become the best government in the country's history, I can see why there can be a perception that Labour lacks policies: They know they will have to compromise if/when they come into power (even if it isn't a coalition government), since you cannot run a country based on a set of policies centered on unions, it just doesn't work.

However, they also know that if they open up and admit that they will shift policies they will loose many of their core supporters - and win many undecided.

I thin they have defined policies, but they also understand that declaring them might be risky, and for this reason they will not be clear enough about their intentions.

So basically they have much in common with FF in that they will lie until they have to tell the truth.

Stark

In the absence of a better alternative, I'll probably vote for Labour in the next election despite considering myself a centre-right voter. Reason being that the IMF/EU will be running the show on the economics front for the next 4 years so they can't **** anything up there, and anyway FF have done a far worse job when it came to adopting unworkable socialist policies and capitulating to the social partners. (Ruairí Quinn actually did a brilliant job as Finance Minister by comparison). My main reason for voting for them over Fine Gael is that Fine Gael are very much dependent on rural Mass goers for their vote and we've had decades of socially conservative government already. We need a party who can propose legislation on unmarried fathers' rights, civil marriage, reproductive rights and the like, not a party who's going to propose legislation on blasphemy. At this point, I'd like someone who will help us catch up with the rest of the world over the next 4 years, then I'll think of voting for someone else when the IMF/EU reign ends.

Ideally though, I'd like if a new version of the PDs in their early days (economically centre-right/socially progressive) sprung up to fill the political vacuum.

The Volt

Let us not forget that everything that Joan Burton said would happen has happened. Lienihan actually laughed at her on numerous occasions. Labour would form a more than competent next government.

The Volt

zootroid wrote: »

The last time Fine Gael were in power, there were some noticeable achievements. The economy was on the up, they introduced free 3rd level education (good at the time, but needs to be changed now), they set up the criminal assets bureau, and they introduced our low rate of corporation tax as a means of attracting foreign direct investment. Above all, John Bruton was and is much more of a statesman than anything Fianna Fail could offer. Richard Bruton is the same, and of all who occupy Leinster House, he is the one I would like to become Taoiseach.

I would hesitate against voting Labour, as they traditionally been very close to the unions. Plus they have spoken very little about their policies. But I do have a lot of respect for Pat Rabbitte and Ruairi Quinn. In fact I think it's a shame Gilmore took over the leadership of the party.

Free education was a Labour spawned idea. Make no mistake, Fine Gael are very much so in favour of high tuition fees.

thetonynator

I don't know if its brainwashing, but this thread is making me like labour!!! And the labour candidate here is good too, but labour haven't had a seat here since seamus pattison . . .

oceanclub

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I didn't say it wan't a big deal, just that Labour didn't come up with it first.

Er, they did come up with it first. Unless you're claiming that the very idea of "any kind of low tax" is somehow copyrighted. Which is ridiculous, but then so is Amhran Nua, frankly.

P.

Revolution9

thetonynator wrote: »

I don't know if its brainwashing, but this thread is making me like labour!!! And the labour candidate here is good too, but labour haven't had a seat here since seamus pattison . . .

Sure even pregnant women are looking forward to Labour after reading through this thread.

Zynks

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

So basically they have much in common with FF in that they will lie until they have to tell the truth.

With the exception of dictatorships, show me one example of a new government that didn't have to compromise in their core objectives in order to accomplish real change. I think you will find it hard to list any, but I wouldn't call them all liars. That is just politics - not perfect, but a good reflection of human nature.

There is no point trying to compare opposition parties to FF. No matter what, we will need a new government, and if we are going to put them all down that easily we will end up like Japan having two changes of government per year, and no stability.

Fianna Downfall

KidKeith89 wrote: »

I don't know a lot about Labour's policies and it seems like a few of my friends are gonna vote for them. And I'm sure a few folks saw Pat Rabbitte's outburst last night on PT and thought, "wow, I'm voting for those guys!"

But can anyone tell my why I should vote for Labour, or even Fine Gael? Don't get me wrong, I hate FF and everyone knows they need to be kicked out of Government now. But considering the IMF bailout, the 2011 Budget and the €15 billion Four-Year Budget Plan, what are Labour or FG gonna do to get this country back on its feet? Or are Labour and FG just making the most of a situation to try to get into government?

I'm sure you've seen this thread by now.

The other political parties are not perfect. But FF must be punished for making an absolute balls of the state.

My hinge would be a Labour or FG finance minister would meet a financial regulator regularly - whereas apparently Mr. Cowen only met him twice when he was finance minister.

Mr Cawley

Voltwad wrote: »

Let us not forget that everything that Joan Burton said would happen has happened. Lienihan actually laughed at her on numerous occasions. Labour would form a more than competent next government.

Can you please use examples to aid my own research.

What did she forecast? Thanks,

Mr. K

johnnyskeleton

femur61 wrote: »

I always associated Labour with trade unions so on that basis I never voted for them.

How did we as a nation go so horribly wrong that people would rather vote for a bunch of crooks than for trade union supporters?

Whatever your views on trade unions, how can they be worse than developers giving bribes at horseracing events?

Amhran Nua

oceanclub wrote: »

Er, they did come up with it first. Unless you're claiming that the very idea of "any kind of low tax" is somehow copyrighted.

No, just looking at the historical reality...

This period from c.1956 to c.1975, is probably the most influential on the evolution of the Irish corporate taxation system, and marked the development of an ‘Irish’ system, rather than continuing with a British model.

This period saw the creation of Corporation Tax, which combined the Capital Gains, Income and Corporation Profits Tax that firms previously had to pay. Future changes to the corporate tax system, such as the measures implemented by various governments over the last twenty years can be seen as a continuation of the policies of this period. The introduction in 1981 of the 10% tax on manufacturing was simply the easiest way to adjust to the demands of the EEC to abolish the export relief, which the EEC viewed as discriminatory. With the accession to the EEC, the advantages of this policy became increasingly obvious to both the Irish government and to foreign multi-nationals, by 1982 over 80% of companies who located in Ireland cited the taxation policy as the primary reason they did so.

During the Rainbow Government of 1994-7, Minister of Finance Ruairi Quinn reduced corporation tax to 12.5% on trading income, a policy that has been continued by subsequent Ministers of Finance. This is generally believed to have been an important stimulus for the Celtic Tiger.

oceanclub wrote: »

Which is ridiculous, but then so is Amhran Nua, frankly.

And yet we have still managed to come out with defined policies, which doesn't say much for Labour from any perspective, really. What, are they afraid other parties will steal them?