New bill will allow jobless to sign on by mobile

Run_to_da_hills

"Jobless workers will start signing on for the dole by mobile phone from next year.

The Government has taken the first steps to roll out a new hi-tech social welfare system that will begin with a pilot scheme in January.

It is one of the key reforms in a new social welfare bill, published yesterday, to be debated in the Dail before passing into law by Christmas.

Following a dramatic doubling in unemployment the scheme is designed to cut down on state officials' workload and generate savings, while also using new technology to tackle fraudsters"

This seems a great idea as in theory it will help cut down on dole figures, reduce staffing and eliminate fraud but on the other hands civil liberties could be at stake to those genuinely out of work if this technology gets out of hand.

"Their identify would be verified by voice recognition technology.

They could also get phone calls at any time


"In addition, their phones can be tracked to make sure they are not in another jurisdiction when due to sign on".




What people should be aware of is that the authorities can track all your movements, snoop at your text messages, pin point everywhere you are within 10 feet by through cell site analysis.

No doubt the fourth coming NFC technology will be soon applied where you can make financial transactions from your phone.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-bill-will-allow-jobless-to-sign-on-by-mobile-2427300.html

Faith+1

Thanks for the Info but how exactly is this a Conspiracy Theory??

yosemite_sam

Yes I heard this on Matt Coopers show today, handy for the chaps that are too busy working or speeding around on boats to get in and sign on

bandit197

What if you decide that the phone is a luxury you can do without whilst claiming benefits? Are the government going to supply everyone with free phones? Or if you were up to something you shouldn't be whats to stop you having two phones.....signing on one left at home. Can people be forced to be sitting waiting for a call at any time? Unworkable and wide open to exploitation imo.

Faith+1

Faith+1 wrote: »

Thanks for the Info but how exactly is this a Conspiracy Theory??

You see RtdH believes that anything to do with phones or credit cards is a part of a global conspiracy to enslave everyone because of some random passage from the bible.
Apparently everyone from the dole office to tescos is in on it.

Run_to_da_hills

Faith+1 wrote: »

Thanks for the Info but how exactly is this a Conspiracy Theory??

It is one step closer to the Big Brother surveillance society.

The first step where one would be required by law to hold a tracking device on person 24/7 that will pinpoint all personal movements. Those that refuse to comply would be denied social welfare privileges.

As said in a previous post a number of years back, the weakest in society such as the unemployed and elderly will be the first to be hit in any major new reforms ito the system such as Smart ID cards etc.

aphex™

It just listens out for the beep your phone makes before the call goes through and you're abroad, chill.

gizmo

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The first step where one would be required by law to hold a tracking device on person 24/7 that will pinpoint all personal movements. Those that refuse to comply would be denied social welfare privileges.

Which this isn't. Not only is this just a pilot scheme but even when it's rolled out it also wouldn't force you to use the mobile system as it, by it's very nature, requires you to own a mobile which some people may not have under those circumstances.

Run_to_da_hills

gizmo wrote: »

Which this isn't. Not only is this just a pilot scheme but even when it's rolled out it also wouldn't force you to use the mobile system as it, by it's very nature, requires you to own a mobile which some people may not have under those circumstances.

Phones are so cheap now both to have and use and Im sure some service provider would be delighted to offer free phones with receiving credit to a state department to kick off the system.

One thing that I would welcome about the system is that it will help curb foreign nationals and others robbing the welfare system by signing on and fecxking off across the border / water to work. It will also get people to have to declare to the office every time they leave the state, AFAIK one is only allowed 12 days holidays a year to leave the 26 countries. The GPS system will reveal how long one has left the country and precisely where they have gone..

CantGetNoSleep

If you are getting money for sitting on your arse doing **** all then so be it, the government are right to want to know where you are. If you don't like it i'm sure you could look for a job or something, or claim the dole in your own country.

Don't know if I like the idea of making the lazy even lazier though

Boo Radley

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

If you are getting money for sitting on your arse doing **** all then so be it, the government are right to want to know where you are. If you don't like it i'm sure you could look for a job or something, or claim the dole in your own country.

Don't know if I like the idea of making the lazy even lazier though

Way to over simplify and generalize. Impressive.

Di0genes

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Phones are so cheap now both to have and use and Im sure some service provider would be delighted to offer free phones with receiving credit to a state department to kick off the system.

One thing that I would welcome about the system is that it will help curb foreign nationals and others robbing the welfare system by signing on and fecxking off across the border / water to work. It will also get people to have to declare to the office every time they leave the state, AFAIK one is only allowed 12 days holidays a year to leave the 26 countries. The GPS system will reveal how long one has left the country and precisely where they have gone..

Now I'm confused you think this is a good thing?

Run_to_da_hills

Di0genes wrote: »

Now I'm confused you think this is a good thing?

I can see the good and bad in such a system.

Good in that its an effective way of tracking fraudsters, bad in that this is no difference than imposing electronic tagging on all welfare recipients when fully implemented.

If the government was to introduce electronic tagging to welfare recipients there would be uproar. People would be out on the streets protesting. Offer a mobile phone which is a far more effective tool for keeping tabs on individuals than any electronic tag and the majority of people will think it a great idea.

Duiske

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

Don't know if I like the idea of making the lazy even lazier though

Do you actually believe the 300,000 odd who have lost their jobs over the past 2 years are just lazy ?

Run_to_da_hills

Duiske wrote: »

Do you actually believe the 300,000 odd who have lost their jobs over the past 2 years are just lazy ?

Add half that again when the EU/IMF forces us to remove the corporation tax concessions that this country currrently offers.

IngazZagni

@Run_to_da_hills What exactly are you afraid the Government will do with knowing the locations of dole recipients?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Add half that again when the EU/IMF forces us to remove the corporation tax concessions that this country currrently offers.

I highly doubt that will happen. It has been noted that many of the jobs that came here because of the low corp tax where from outside the EU so it's in the EU's interest to keep it here. Besides it's only ministers from other countries in the EU that want to raise it because many companies choose here than there for that reason. If the EU/IMF really want to see us recover then they will keep it at 12.5% and I think it will stay there, I'm hopeful anyway.

Duiske

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Add half that again when the EU/IMF forces us to remove the corporation tax concessions that this country currrently offers.

The EU/IMF can do feck all about corp tax, or any other tax for that matter.
In June 2009, at an EU summit, a guarantee was given to Ireland that the EU would not and could not interfere with our tax policys. It was part of allaying the fear of the Irish before the "Did you really mean no to Lisbon or were ye just mess'in ?" referendum
I'll try to fish out that document. Has to be floating around the net somewhere.

Run_to_da_hills

Ireland: Social welfare recipients to be tracked by electronic certification system.

November 19, 2010 by Infowars Ireland

"Editors note: Where is it written in Irish Law that it is mandatory to possess or use a mobile phone?

This is yet another step towards the total surveillance society and conditioning of the slaves – This has to be illegal/ unconstitutional and must be challenged by We The People – there are many reasons not to use mobile phones, especially due to health concerns and on religious grounds.

REMEMBER: First it will be people on Social Welfare being tracked – Tomorrow it will be YOU."

http://oneworldscam.com/?p=10211

gizmo

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Ireland: Social welfare recipients to be tracked by electronic certification system.

November 19, 2010 by Infowars Ireland

"Editors note: Where is it written in Irish Law that it is mandatory to possess or use a mobile phone?

This is yet another step towards the total surveillance society and conditioning of the slaves – This has to be illegal/ unconstitutional and must be challenged by We The People – there are many reasons not to use mobile phones, especially due to health concerns and on religious grounds.

REMEMBER: First it will be people on Social Welfare being tracked – Tomorrow it will be YOU."

http://oneworldscam.com/?p=10211

What a pile of ****e...

Same goes for the rest of the article of course but that's just grasping as straws. Then again the site is run by Alex Jones so it's hardly surprising. :rolleyes:

Run_to_da_hills

gizmo wrote: »

What a pile of ****e...

Same goes for the rest of the article of course but that's just grasping as straws. Then again the site is run by Alex Jones so it's hardly surprising. :rolleyes:

There is also truth in it, introduce an electronic certification system for Social Welfare recipients and who will be next? When NFC becomes widespread it will open the floodgates for other departments to adapt. Pensioners, those on parole, civil service workers etc.

I can foresee IMEI being linked up to PPS and the banning of unregistered hand sets / sim cards.

gizmo

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There is also truth in it, introduce an electronic certification system for Social Welfare recipients and who will be next? When NFC becomes widespread it will open the floodgates for other departments to adapt. Pensioners, those on parole, civil service workers etc.

I can foresee IMEI being linked up to PPS and the banning of unregistered hand sets / sim cards.

Never going to happen, there's simply no basis for it whatsoever. Why would pensioners or civil service workers be targeted?

High risk prisoners on parole, if such a term even exists, could be viable candidates for it but they already have electronic tagging for those in many states which prohibit them from leaving a certain area, no harm in the slightest tbh.

goat2

signing on by phone, will make cheating and lying more widespread, johnny will be stacking blocks for his employer and on the phone at same time, this is why going to the exchange is good when people have to sign at office, there are thousands cheating the system every day as it is, i hope they are all caught, but they are always away ahead of the system,

Run_to_da_hills

goat2 wrote: »

signing on by phone, will make cheating and lying more widespread, johnny will be stacking blocks for his employer and on the phone at same time, this is why going to the exchange is good when people have to sign at office, there are thousands cheating the system every day as it is, i hope they are all caught, but they are always away ahead of the system,

Ever use Google maps on your phone?

The authorities will have access to all GSM coordinates from service providers of any individual if they suspected fraud. (They might even be granted live access to those registered on the dole)

All it would take is to watch Johnny's daily routine and send an officer out to the spot within meters of where they suspect johnny is working.

With regard to cheating, all calls and correspondence may be recorded, a policy that is quite common these days with government services. They can pinpoint the location of each call made along with voice recognition they know exactly. Lie detection software is easily available so it would not take much to see if Johnny is taking the piss or not.

Remember all correspondence with Johnny is stored for two years under the Data retention directive. So they have plenty of time to go through Johnny's records.

derry

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Ever use Google maps on your phone?

The authorities will have access to all GSM coordinates from service providers of any individual if they suspected fraud. (They might even be granted live access to those registered on the dole)

All it would take is to watch Johnny's daily routine and send an officer out to the spot within meters of where they suspect johnny is working.

With regard to cheating, all calls and correspondence may be recorded, a policy that is quite common these days with government services. They can pinpoint the location of each call made along with voice recognition they know exactly. Lie detection software is easily available so it would not take much to see if Johnny is taking the piss or not.

Remember all correspondence with Johnny is stored for two years under the Data retention directive. So they have plenty of time to go through Johnny's records.

Definitly traits of common purpose here.

The not so well known fact is that the mobile phones sound and transmit can be switched on without appearing to call that mobile recipient .They can eaves drop on your life and hear everything you say even if your not on the phone.The result is that they could hear you negosiate with some people to do work at a price while signing on the scratch.Who knows maybe that day you loaned your phone to your brother who has work and they listen into him doing his work and cut you social because they say you are working
The idea to verify the person with voice recognition I suspect isnt really 100% relaible and possible in this time but maybe in a few years it will be

The tracking of the mobile down to a few feet is correct in the cites but is mabe only as good as ~30 feet in the country side .

Best solution buy a mobile that stays at home for the scratch and put it in a sound proof place like a big box so they cant hear the house hold talk.
Alternitivly just put that sim in the phone when you expect calls from the scrath department
Also Use another phone not registered to you or registered to a fake name for freinds etc .
Most smucks in Ireland register their phone to get the free credit and give away their real name and address .
If you do that its possible the scrath department can get that info and track the phone you didnt tell them about .
I have three phones non registered to me all pay as you go so difficult for big brother to track .
Every few months I change the SIM cards and the numbers and then inform all my freinds of the new numbers
One is mobile is Tesco and costs 10 cents per minute anytime of the day pay as you go and that makes call out .One mobile is three and that does calls inwards only and surfs the net as the call rate 30 cents per minute isnt a runner but internet cost ~5 euros a month so it does the surfing on the move .The third phone a freind gave me is 02 and is only for my freid to ring me as he can call O2 for free and doesnt ring out .
I mostly keep all phones switched off for most of the day such as when I am at work or home as people know my landline numbers and I surf the net using my computer at home .Also I dont like big brother snooping on everything I do so easily

For most people on the scratch is best to say they cant afford to own mobile phone as you dont want nosy common purpose listing in on your home life or even your basic stuff like going out to shops and similar.You might just walk pass a roadworks crew going to the shops and next they tape it and say you were at work in a building site


Derry

Boo Radley

derry wrote: »

Definitly traits of common purpose here.

The not so well known fact is that the mobile phones sound and transmit can be switched on without appearing to call that mobile recipient .They can eaves drop on your life and hear everything you say even if your not on the phone.The result is that they could hear you negosiate with some people to do work at a price while signing on the scratch.Who knows maybe that day you loaned your phone to your brother who has work and they lten into him doing his work and cut you social because they say you are working
The idea to verify the person with voice recognition I suspect isnt really 100% relaible and possible in this time but maybe in a few years it will be

The tracking of the mobile down to a few feet is correct in the cites but is mabe only as good as 30 feet in the country side .

Best solution buy a mobile that stays at home for the scratch and put it in a sound proof place like a big box so they cant hear the house hold talk. Use another phone not registered to you or registered to a fake name for freinds etc .Most smucks in Ireland register theirr phone to get the free credit and give away real name and adress . If you do that its possible the ascrathdepartment can get that info and track the phone you didnt tell them about .I have three phones non registered to me all pay as you go .One is tesco and costs 10 cents per minute anytime of the day pay as you go and that makes call out .One is three and that doescalls in and surfs the net as the call rate 30cents per minute isnt a runner but internet cost 5 euros a month .The third phone a freind gave me is 02 and is only for my freid to ring me as he can call O2 for free.
I mostly keep all phones switched off for most of the day such as when I am at work or home as people know my landline numbers and I surf the net using my computer at home .Also I dont like big brother snooping on everything i do so easily

For most people on the scratch is best to say they cant afford to own mobile phone as you dont want nosy common purpose listing in on your home life or even your basic stuff like going out to shops and similar.You might just pass a roadworks crew and next they tape it and say you were at work in a building site


Derry

'They' also might need a few changes in the law to go around listening in on Joe Bloggs without sufficient cause. I'm aware of the technique you are referring to but to think that 'they' would be listening into the life of an average unemployed person seems far fetched.

Plus I think any case where someone is being accused of not declaring work might need a bit more than noise from a roadworks crew picked up while listening through your mobile. That'd be one hell of a flimsy case, not to mention the legal hurdles pointed out in relation to phone-tapping.

Divorce Referendum

derry wrote: »

Definitly traits of common purpose here.

The not so well known fact is that the mobile phones sound and transmit can be switched on without appearing to call that mobile recipient .They can eaves drop on your life and hear everything you say even if your not on the phone.The result is that they could hear you negosiate with some people to do work at a price while signing on the scratch.Who knows maybe that day you loaned your phone to your brother who has work and they listen into him doing his work and cut you social because they say you are working
The idea to verify the person with voice recognition I suspect isnt really 100% relaible and possible in this time but maybe in a few years it will be

The tracking of the mobile down to a few feet is correct in the cites but is mabe only as good as ~30 feet in the country side .
:eek:t stays at home for the scratch and put it in a sound proof place like a big box so they cant hear the house hold talk.
Alternitivly just put that sim in the phone when you expect calls from the scrath department
Also Use another phone not registered to you or registered to a fake name for freinds etc .
Most smucks in Ireland register their phone to get the free credit and give away their real name and address .
If you do that its possible the scrath department can get that info and track the phone you didnt tell them about .
I have three phones non registered to me all pay as you go so difficult for big brother to track .
Every few months I change the SIM cards and the numbers and then inform all my freinds of the new numbers
One is mobile is Tesco and costs 10 cents per minute anytime of the day pay as you go and that makes call out .One mobile is three and that does calls inwards only and surfs the net as the call rate 30 cents per minute isnt a runner but internet cost ~5 euros a month so it does the surfing on the move .The third phone a freind gave me is 02 and is only for my freid to ring me as he can call O2 for free and doesnt ring out .
I mostly keep all phones switched off for most of the day such as when I am at work or home as people know my landline numbers and I surf the net using my computer at home .Also I dont like big brother snooping on everything I do so easily

For most people on the scratch is best to say they cant afford to own mobile phone as you dont want nosy common purpose listing in on your home life or even your basic stuff like going out to shops and similar.You might just walk pass a roadworks crew going to the shops and next they tape it and say you were at work in a building site


Derry

Serously mate this is Ireland and the Imf is here and you think the government is paying people to spy on you. Maybe in America this is true.
A couple of questions:

1. Why the hell would they spy on you in particular?
2. And what if your fantasy does exist. What shady dealings are you doing that you dont want the government knowing about

Run_to_da_hills

Divorce Referendum wrote: »

Seriously mate this is Ireland and the Imf is here and you think the government is paying people to spy on you. Maybe in America this is true.
A couple of questions:

1. Why the hell would they spy on you in particular?
2. And what if your fantasy does exist. What shady dealings are you doing that you don't want the government knowing about

It will be the IMF that will be putting the gun to the head of what puppet government that will take over from Fianna Fail.

They will insist on tight fiscal figures and repayment of their 80 Billion loan.

It will be up to the government to slash dole figures and make sure those that are on it are those that deserve it. In order to do this they will have to usher in new surveillance powers to keep track on everyone that is claiming it.

Divorce Referendum

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It will be the IMF that will be putting the gun to the head of what puppet government that will take over from Fianna Fail.

They will insist on tight fiscal figures and repayment of their 80 Billion loan.

It will be up to the government to slash dole figures and make sure those that are on it are those that deserve it. In order to do this they will have to usher in new surveillance powers to keep track on everyone that is claiming it.

Ya that might happen. I was just asking why the goverment would be spying on you if you are not on the dole such as derrys case. Paranoia im guessing derry?.


What info do you think the goverment can obtain by just knowing your location. I think this is a reasonable measure considering the dole cheats out there. I know you say that this will lead to other intusions to privacy but this system hasnt been introduced so they are irrelavent at this moment in time.

By the way regarding this system which i dont know much about, whats to stop someone leaving the phone at home and then heading off to work abroad?

Run_to_da_hills

Divorce Referendum wrote: »

Ya that might happen. I was just asking why the government would be spying on you if you are not on the dole such as derrys case. Paranoia im guessing derry?.

My point is that if they bring in legislation for one thing they can easily adapt it for another.

Once the authorities get permission to have live access to GSM data from mobile phone service providers (As in the UK for tracking terrorists etc :rolleyes:) they could use the same powers to track anyone once they had their mobile number on record whether they were signing on or not.

Divorce Referendum wrote: »

What info do you think the government can obtain by just knowing your location. I think this is a reasonable measure considering the dole cheats out there. I know you say that this will lead to other intrusions to privacy but this system hasn't been introduced so they are irrelevant at this moment in time.

They can get information and content of every text message that was sent / received from a given location.

If a single mother was claiming assistance they could very quickly find out if she had a partner living in the same flat, who he is and if he is working just from co ordinate information in the area and correspondence with her phone. They could also look into the content of her and his text messages.


Software has also been developed that can turn a 3G phone into a bug even if it has been switched off. The FBI have been using a more sophisticated version for quite a while for eaves dropping on the Mafia.

Divorce Referendum wrote: »

By the way regarding this system which i don't know much about, whats to stop someone leaving the phone at home and then heading off to work abroad?

Loads, voice and lie detection software also if you read the article, the phone would have to be carried by all welfare recipient's. If the phone is unanswered after three attempts an interview will be called for.

Divorce Referendum

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

My point is that if they bring in legislation for one thing they can easily adapt it for another.

Once the authorities get permission to have live access to GSM data from mobile phone service providers (As in the UK for tracking terrorists etc :rolleyes:) they could use the same powers to track anyone once they had their mobile number on record whether they were signing on or not.
They can get information and content of every text message that was sent / received from a given location.

I am aware from living in the UK briefly that you must provide a debit card when buying your phone for address verifcation. Can they check your sent/ recieved messages in Ireland? Do we have a patriot act like the U.S.?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If a single mother was claiming assistance they could very quickly find out if she had a partner living in the same flat, who he is and if he is working just from co ordinate information in the area and correspondence with her phone. They could also look into the content of her and his text messages.

Dont know is that a bad thing to be honest if someone is suspected of scamming? I think it will depend if they are suspect or not. Again refer above I dont think this will happen

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Software has also been developed that can turn a 3G phone into a bug even if it has been switched off. The FBI have been using a more sophisticated version for quite a while for eaves dropping on the Mafia.

Loads, voice and lie detection software also if you read the article, the phone would have to be carried by all welfare recipient's. If the phone is unanswered after three attempts an interview will be called for.

Im sorry but we are talking about the Department of Social and Family Affairs here not the FBI. I dont think that software will be used by the bungling social welfare department

I am not denying this technology exists but we are not in the US and we are talking about dole recipients not terrorists. Fair enough about the voice recognition thing. Whats the protocol there?. Call everyone on the dole in to record their voice?

Run_to_da_hills

Divorce Referendum wrote: »

I am aware from living in the UK briefly that you must provide a debit card when buying your phone for address verifcation. Can they check your sent/ received messages in Ireland? Do we have a patriot act like the U.S.?

No but Ireland has one of the tightest data retention directives in the world. Two years on electronic communications. If they suspect crime or fraud they can request this information from service providers. To date one can purchase an unregistered sim card / unregistered IMEI but I cannot see this lasting too long. Give it the next major "terrorist bomb" triggered off by an unregistered phone and it will all change.

Divorce Referendum wrote: »

Don't know is that a bad thing to be honest if someone is suspected of scamming? I think it will depend if they are suspect or not. Again refer above I don't think this will happen.

Whether it happens or not the technology is there and the powers are also made available the authorities to use if we let them.

Divorce Referendum wrote: »

I'm sorry but we are talking about the Department of Social and Family Affairs here not the FBI. I don't think that software will be used by the bungling social welfare department?

The basic version of phone dead was on the market two years ago for $700 it now available for $250.

In two years time with all these austerity measures that will be imposed by the IMF and EU on our up and coming puppet government I would not be surprised at all how far they will go toward preventing fraud. The "Department of Social and Family Affairs" may even be controlled from Brussels at the way things are going.

Divorce Referendum wrote: »

I am not denying this technology exists but we are not in the US and we are talking about dole recipients not terrorists. Fair enough about the voice recognition thing. Whats the protocol there?. Call everyone on the dole in to record their voice?

Mobile phone forensics is mobile phone forensics whether it is in the US or Ireland and it is increasingly used for solving crime. Welfare fraud is just as much a crime as stealing particularly for those that are totally taking the piss.

What surveillance tools we see on the market is nothing compared to what the authorities can have at their disposal.

In the bad old days of the 80's recession dole officers would follow suspects around in cars, looking for ladders, guys carrying lunch boxes, tools etc to various building sites. Today the same officials can relax in front of a computer screen in an office and carry out the same work more efficiently.