It's funny the way FF is descended from anti treatiers and FG from pro treateirs...

hatrickpatrick

...and yet now FF is being accused of ceding national sovereignty by FG.

If this doesn't wake up the people who still vote for FF / FG purely based on their family history of being pro or anti treaty during the civil war, I dunno what will.

THE PAST IS IRRELEVANT. VOTE SOLELY AND PURELY BASED ON THE POLICIES OF TODAY.

I firmly believe that's part of what got us into this mess to begin with. The Irish political system refuses to let go of the past and actually concentrate on using the present to build a future.

Anyone agree, even remotely?

later12

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

...and yet now FF is being accused of ceding national sovereignty by FG.

If this doesn't wake up the people who still vote for FF / FG purely based on their family history of being pro or anti treaty during the civil war, I dunno what will.

THE PAST IS IRRELEVANT. VOTE SOLELY AND PURELY BASED ON THE POLICIES OF TODAY.

I firmly believe that's part of what got us into this mess to begin with. The Irish political system refuses to let go of the past and actually concentrate on using the present to build a future.

Anyone agree, even remotely?

No.

The only people who ever bring the civil war into political discourse are those who constantly harp on about people voting out of civil war traditions.

Where are you getting this from? Because someone used the word 'sovereign' in some artcle you read?

Nobody has mentioned the civil war. Why are you?

NSNO

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

...and yet now FF is being accused of ceding national sovereignty by FG.

If this doesn't wake up the people who still vote for FF / FG purely based on their family history of being pro or anti treaty during the civil war, I dunno what will.

THE PAST IS IRRELEVANT. VOTE SOLELY AND PURELY BASED ON THE POLICIES OF TODAY.

I firmly believe that's part of what got us into this mess to begin with. The Irish political system refuses to let go of the past and actually concentrate on using the present to build a future.

Anyone agree, even remotely?

I agree the civil war divisions are a problem down the country.

However, current policies can only amount to so much. Surely what a party stands for is one of the most important things to consider?

Fianna Fáil are the systematic problem in Irish politics. Their populism, the saying of anything to get elected, the jumping of the left to the right, from the liberal to the authoritarian means that the rest of the parties are fighting against a moving target which has absolutely no principles or ideology

Without FF, FG would be the party of the centre-right and Labour would represent the centre-left and the Greens or whatever Liberal party springs up in their place would take the centre/liberal/reform position that the Lib Dems take in Britain.

My main point is that I would strongly urge people never to vote for Fianna Fáil again, no matter what their policies - they simply cannot be trusted.

PeterIanStaker

Funny isn't the word, tragic more like.
But then again look at the USA, Republicans and Democrats, and their Civil War was 150 years ago. So by that extension, in 70 years time, we'll still have the same system. Whoop de doo.

mikemac

NSNO wrote: »

Without FF, FG would be the party of the centre-right and Labour would represent the centre-left and the Greens or whatever Liberal party springs up in their place would take the centre/liberal/reform position that the Lib Dems take in Britain.

I'd prefer to have our system then what they have in the UK.
If you get elected in some areas depends on the colour of your rosette. Michael Portillo being an notable exception.
You could be an amazing candidate but wear a blue rosette in areas of Wales or a red rosette in Fulham and you have no chance.

And then you have candidates with zero connection to their area parachuted in. Doesn't happen that often in Ireland. But it can go too far in Ireland with constant need to look after your area above the national good.

I don't know the solution, I realy don't

Shea O'Meara

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

...and yet now FF is being accused of ceding national sovereignty by FG.

If this doesn't wake up the people who still vote for FF / FG purely based on their family history of being pro or anti treaty during the civil war, I dunno what will.

THE PAST IS IRRELEVANT. VOTE SOLELY AND PURELY BASED ON THE POLICIES OF TODAY.

I firmly believe that's part of what got us into this mess to begin with. The Irish political system refuses to let go of the past and actually concentrate on using the present to build a future.

Anyone agree, even remotely?

Yes, you've a point but at this stage the core FFail voters are intrenched. They wouldn't know what to do with themselves if they didn't have FFail.

Liam Byrne

NSNO wrote: »

I agree the civil war divisions are a problem down the country.

Where is this "down the country" and what gives you the right to speak for people from there ?

Liam Byrne

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Where is this "down the country" and what gives you the right to speak for people from there ?

I've lived most of my 33 years outside of Dublin, and I've yet to see these civil war tensions..

Personally, I think its just another way of making Irish politics sound "romantic"/"dramatic". If they can tie this crap to the past, then they have a justification in acting like children towards each other. And they do act like children, blaming each other for this and that going back decades, without ever resolving the problems of the present.

I honestly can't tell you what each of the parties "stand for". Oh, I've heard what they say they represent, however, I've never really seen any of them stand for any of these principles. Ten seconds after winning an election they're turning into something else entirely, and pursuing a different agenda. So please forgive my disbelief when there's talk about what the political parties "stand for".

I'd trust individuals within each of the parties except for the loyalty and almost mob mentality they have to their own parties. Alas the Independents rarely achieve anything and yet they "seem" more honest.

But, hey, I freely admit I don't really understand (or want to understand) the intricacies of our political system... Way too much BS to wade through. Maybe that's their plan?

redfacedbear

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

...and yet now FF is being accused of ceding national sovereignty by FG.

If this doesn't wake up the people who still vote for FF / FG purely based on their family history of being pro or anti treaty during the civil war, I dunno what will.

THE PAST IS IRRELEVANT. VOTE SOLELY AND PURELY BASED ON THE POLICIES OF TODAY.

I firmly believe that's part of what got us into this mess to begin with. The Irish political system refuses to let go of the past and actually concentrate on using the present to build a future.

Anyone agree, even remotely?

Nope, I think your thinking is highly muddled. You seem to be suggesting hipocrasy on FG's part (or more accurately on the part of their precursor) because they subverted our sovreignity at the time of the treaty - but given that the treaty was supported by the majority surely it was the anti-treaty side that were the subverters of the sovereign will of the people?

Secondly while I agree that people blindly following family tradition in their voting habits is a common problem and the two parties have their origins in the civil war, but it's a bit of an illogical leap to suggest that this means people are still voting for these parties based on their respective stances on the treaty.

I wholeheartedly agree that the real problem has been FF's stupid populism that has all too often meant moronic governance that gives us short-term feelgood at the expense of long-term stability.