Arkle

TheMilkyPirate

Have always had an avid interest in arkle and his amazing talent, Mainly down to my father scoffing at anything when i was growing up and saying "I'd like to see him do that against himself" lol. Have just been watching a few videos and reading all mornin something i like to do sometimes about various horses, I knew nearly everything i read about arkle already but it's just an amazing story and so interesting.

I think it's a bit hard to grasp just how good he was as he was really on a different planet to anything around at the time even the great mill house giving him 16lb in the 1965 gallagher gold cup. He's had so many amazing performances it's hard to pick any but this is one of my favourites.

1966 Gold cup: Giving stalbridge colonist 35lb! And only failing to beat him by half a length. Stan mellor actually once said that arkle could have won the race by 25 lengths only for stan positioned himself directly behind arkle and made it look as though he was struggling and then ran at arkle as fast as he could after the last and caught taafe unaware. The fact that stalbridge finished second and third in the next two gold cups and that what a myth the third places horse was a future gold cup winner just goes to show how amazing this performance was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxY1-LJrpaU&feature=related

Have any of our older posters any memories of arkle? And what do people think of horses such as kauto star being compared to arkle? In my opinion he's not as good as arkle was and never will be, And to be honest i'm actually scared that a horse will one day come along and surpass him as the greatest as i think that title belongs to arkle and always will.

Morgans

You should read about Flyingbolt, 2l inferior to Akle. There is little doubt that Arkle is the greatest of all time, but he definitely wasnt on a different planet to anything around at the time.

There is a huge debate whether or not Arkle was overrated. It is almost inconceivable that a horses could give Kauto Star 1.5 stone and a beating in last year's King George.

I know enough respected judges who suggest that he was that good. And the Gallagher Gold Cup was supposed to be his best race (the horse's Cleveland Williams for those who know their boxing) but Mill House wasnt the same horse in 1966 as he was in 1963.

Ive seen the Stalbridge Colonist and What A Myth line rolled out thousands of times to suggest how great Arkle was. I dont buy that. They were some of the world Gold Cups in history, with What A Myth's run in a bog that you dont see anymore on a racetrack. Beating Sir Rembrandt or Harbour Pilot by 25l wouldnt impress me yet they were good enough to be involved in a Gold Cup photo.

Kauto Star has been miles in front of Alberta's Run on a number of occasions and hammered Voy Por Ustedes over 2m before he won his champion chase. He beat Denman by 13l in a gold cup. Looking at the bare story doesnt tell the full truth, its easy to paint a rosey picture by ignoring context.

If anything the distance back to Pas Seul, another Gold Cup winner in 1964, was striking, but who knows he was may have been past his best then.

There is very very little doubt that he was the best horse ever to race. There is some doubt to the extent of his superiority (especially over the modern stars) Its something that the current handicapper is hoping to decipher using old form. But be that as it may, I think if Kauto Star cant get within 22lbs of Arkle (using timeforms 212 rating) then there is very little doubt that any horse will ever pass him out. Instead of dreading the day, I hope to see a horse that good before I die. Or even Arkle's "Sun alliance" chase would be great.

TheMilkyPirate

Morgans wrote: »

You should read about Flyingbolt, 2l inferior to Akle. There is little doubt that Arkle is the greatest of all time, but he definitely wasnt on a different planet to anything around at the time.

There is a huge debate whether or not Arkle was overrated. It is almost inconceivable that a horses could give Kauto Star 1.5 stone and a beating in last year's King George.

I know enough respected judges who suggest that he was that good. And the Gallagher Gold Cup was supposed to be his best race (the horse's Cleveland Williams for those who know their boxing) but Mill House wasnt the same horse in 1966 as he was in 1963.

Ive seen the Stalbridge Colonist and What A Myth line rolled out thousands of times to suggest how great Arkle was. I dont buy that. They were some of the world Gold Cups in history, with What A Myth's run in a bog that you dont see anymore on a racetrack. Beating Sir Rembrandt or Harbour Pilot by 25l wouldnt impress me yet they were good enough to be involved in a Gold Cup photo.

Kauto Star has been miles in front of Alberta's Run on a number of occasions and hammered Voy Por Ustedes over 2m before he won his champion chase. He beat Denman by 13l in a gold cup. Looking at the bare story doesnt tell the full truth, its easy to paint a rosey picture by ignoring context.

If anything the distance back to Pas Seul, another Gold Cup winner in 1964, was striking, but who knows he was may have been past his best then.

There is very very little doubt that he was the best horse ever to race. There is some doubt to the extent of his superiority (especially over the modern stars) Its something that the current handicapper is hoping to decipher using old form. But be that as it may, I think if Kauto Star cant get within 22lbs of Arkle (using timeforms 212 rating) then there is very little doubt that any horse will ever pass him out. Instead of dreading the day, I hope to see a horse that good before I die. Or even Arkle's "Sun alliance" chase would be great.

Poor flying bolt lived in arkles shadow for most of his life, I've heard some people say he could have been better than arkle. Mill house may not have been the same horse in 1966 (yet he did win a whitbread gold cup in 67') he was the same horse in 64' and arkle beat him fair and square then aswell.

I think what amazes me is the way arkle gave away so much weight and yet still won, Yet to see kauto do that. I'm not knocking kauto so don't get me wrong and i understand some horses are built to give away weight others not. Although kauto stars 09 king george is probably the greatest racing display i will ever see, Flawless.

They may have been some of the worst gold cups in history but giving 35lbs to any top horse is an achievement in it's itself, Cantering all over him before the last just thought it was great to look at. Were you around in his time morgan? Or are you only as pup like myself

Morgans

Sweet jesus no, but can remember Desert Orchid. Yeah, Mill House was a middle of the road type horse by the end of his career - flyingbolt also after sickness.

Arkle was clearly superior to Mill House but Mill House's best runs were before 1965. After that he wasnt the same animal who won the Gold Cup in 63, beat Arkle in the Hennessey and lost in the Gold Cup.

I think Arkle improved tons in the Winter of 63/64. it is far from certain that he would have beaten Mill House in the 63 Hennessey, especially the way he faded to be passed for second after the last.

If there were teh conditions chases back then that there are now, its unlikely that Arkle would have run in handicaps. Its something i mentioned in another thread, but Kauto Star has no problem carrying 11-10 or 11-12. But to keep top class championship horses ready for the big day year on year they need to be cared for. Handicaps is the tougher route. Denman is suited more by Newbury than anything else, certainly more than haydock or any right handed track in which he could make his debut. It shouldnt be used as a stick to beat a horse, be it Istabraq, Moscow Flyer, Kauto Star, Best Mate etc. The trainers are looking after their horses.

Nulty

baraca wrote: »

Have always had an avid interest in arkle and his amazing talent, Mainly down to my father scoffing at anything when i was growing up and saying "I'd like to see him do that against himself" lol. Have just been watching a few videos and reading all mornin something i like to do sometimes about various horses, I knew nearly everything i read about arkle already but it's just an amazing story and so interesting.

I think it's a bit hard to grasp just how good he was as he was really on a different planet to anything around at the time even the great mill house giving him 16lb in the 1965 gallagher gold cup. He's had so many amazing performances it's hard to pick any but this is one of my favourites.

1966 Gold cup: Giving stalbridge colonist 35lb! And only failing to beat him by half a length. Stan mellor actually once said that arkle could have won the race by 25 lengths only for stan positioned himself directly behind arkle and made it look as though he was struggling and then ran at arkle as fast as he could after the last and caught taafe unaware. The fact that stalbridge finished second and third in the next two gold cups and that what a myth the third places horse was a future gold cup winner just goes to show how amazing this performance was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxY1-LJrpaU&feature=related

Have any of our older posters any memories of arkle? And what do people think of horses such as kauto star being compared to arkle? In my opinion he's not as good as arkle was and never will be, And to be honest i'm actually scared that a horse will one day come along and surpass him as the greatest as i think that title belongs to arkle and always will.

Was that the race when he hurt himself 4 out and after the last couldn't go on. A fracture or something iirc. Maybe that was another race.

Edit
No, had a feeling it was the King George and it was. 1966

greenrocket

lads, i cant say anything about any chaser in my house without my dad lambasting me about arkle (to be fair i agree with him went to the national stud and i was blown away.) but he also tells me about golden cygnet, he reckons he could have been the greatest of them all. a novice that beat the big boys, you wouldnt see it today. were the horses better then, or would they have a hope against the specific breeds of today.

Nulty

greenrocket wrote: »

lads, i cant say anything about any chaser in my house without my dad lambasting me about arkle (to be fair i agree with him went to the national stud and i was blown away.) but he also tells me about golden cygnet, he reckons he could have been the greatest of them all. a novice that beat the big boys, you wouldnt see it today. were the horses better then, or would they have a hope against the specific breeds of today.

Golden Cygnet was a hurdler but yeah, absolute machine. Think he was killed in the Fighting Fifth. Could be wrong but my mind is telling me it was at Newcastle that he died....maybe Aintree :P


EDIT
Feck sake! It was the Scottish Champion at Ayr.

Nulty

I'm not posting his last race cause I prefer not to have the stench of death in the thread :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_8KSgxz4pg

Morgans

Nulty wrote: »

Golden Cygnet was a hurdler but yeah, absolute machine. Think he was killed in the Fighting Fifth. Could be wrong but my mind is telling me it was at Newcastle that he died....maybe Aintree :P


EDIT
Feck sake! It was the Scottish Champion at Ayr.

Could have been the best but never got to prove it. Golden Cygnet looked like he could have been the best hurdler and in an era of the best hurdlers it would have been something. But nostalgia does make these horses appear to be the next pegasus. Any of these hurdlers from the past would have a job to beat Istabraq at his best. Novices like Make A Stand, Alderbrook and Royal Gait have won the Champion Hurdle in the 90s.

UrbanSea

Speaking of Istabrag,does anyone think Aidan O'Brien will go back training jumpers?

RichieLawlor

greetings wrote: »

Speaking of Istabrag,does anyone think Aidan O'Brien will go back training jumpers?

He will when he leaves Ballydoyle to start training for himself. It's close.

Apparently Wachman is being brought in to train at Ballydoyle to replace him. As soon as his own facility is ready he's off.

That's what I'm led to believe anyway

UrbanSea

And where did he train his horses before he joined Ballydoyle Richie?

chinguetti

AOB trained in Piltown at the father in law's place i think. Is he going to go back there?

Didn't they give Wachman all the fillies a couple of years ago and he didn't get much success with them. They might put Wachman in Ballydoyle at one stage or AOB might leave himself (i think he will leave at some stage for a new challenge) but i doubt that he'll bring the success to Coolmore that AOB has done.

UrbanSea

chinguetti wrote: »

AOB trained in Piltown at the father in law's place i think. Is he going to go back there?

Didn't they give Wachman all the fillies a couple of years ago and he didn't get much success with them. They might put Wachman in Ballydoyle at one stage or AOB might leave himself (i think he will leave at some stage for a new challenge) but i doubt that he'll bring the success to Coolmore that AOB has done.

In fairness,Aidan hasn't had a huge amount of success with fillies himself. Famous was bought for something like a million euro and You'll Be Mine and Devoted to You have been awful this season. Heart Shaped was very average and was incredibly lucky to run second out in the Breeders' Cup. The only two good fillies for Coolmore in the last few seasons are Moonstone and Again,one for O'Brien and one for Wachman. Correct me if I'm wrong but none else are really standing out.
*Edit*Totally forgot about Lillie Langtry. There's probably another ten I'm forgetting about now.

RichieLawlor

greetings wrote: »

And where did he train his horses before he joined Ballydoyle Richie?

O Brien was only 25 when he started training for Coolmore. I think he even used to ride a few bumper horses.

But more recently a few things haven't sat right with him, like having Holy Roman Emperor whisked off to stud to replace George Washington while he was being prepared for the guineas or running George in the BC Classic, APOB knew he would not stay.

Even this year he was against running St Nicholas Abbey at Newmarket but his hand us continually being forced by his bosses.

I suppose he has grown tired of the situation and had made enough money so he wants the freedom to train himself.

That's how i heard it from a reliable source

RichieLawlor

greetings wrote: »

In fairness,Aidan hasn't had a huge amount of success with fillies himself. Famous was bought for something like a million euro and You'll Be Mine and Devoted to You have been awful this season. Heart Shaped was very average and was incredibly lucky to run second out in the Breeders' Cup. The only two good fillies for Coolmore in the last few seasons are Moonstone and Again,one for O'Brien and one for Wachman. Correct me if I'm wrong but none else are really standing out.
*Edit*Totally forgot about Lillie Langtry. There's probably another ten I'm forgetting about now.

Cough cough! Alexandrova and Peeping Fawn weren't bad

Morgans

God only knows what this has to be do with Arkle, but Coolmore are too clever to replace O'Brien with Wachman. If O'Brien wants to leave, fair enough, that's his decision. (i'd very much doubt it, but its more plausible than giving Wachman the reins, regardless of family connections)

Aidan O'Brien was champion amateur jockey.

UrbanSea

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Cough cough! Alexandrova and Peeping Fawn weren't bad

And Halfway to Heaven,they're all coming to me now. But in fairness,when you compare them with how many fillies that they've invested in,the colts must give a much better percentage return.

mdwexford

RichieLawlor wrote: »

He will when he leaves Ballydoyle to start training for himself. It's close.

Apparently Wachman is being brought in to train at Ballydoyle to replace him. As soon as his own facility is ready he's off.

That's what I'm led to believe anyway

RichieLawlor wrote: »

O Brien was only 25 when he started training for Coolmore. I think he even used to ride a few bumper horses.

But more recently a few things haven't sat right with him, like having Holy Roman Emperor whisked off to stud to replace George Washington while he was being prepared for the guineas or running George in the BC Classic, APOB knew he would not stay.

Even this year he was against running St Nicholas Abbey at Newmarket but his hand us continually being forced by his bosses.

I suppose he has grown tired of the situation and had made enough money so he wants the freedom to train himself.

That's how i heard it from a reliable source

lol "led to believe" and "reliable source", pull the other one.

You are making all this up.

joconnor59

i have never seen the mighty arkle only on footage but my late dad was all his life in horse racing 50yrs and saw alot of great horses as he worked in the racing game and also saw the mighty arkle many times race in uk and ireland..and saw the other greats around when arkle was about and many a good horse since...and nothing measure up to himself (arkle) he was a freak...a one off !! to give lumps of weight and beat good horses 20l or 30l.. its just unbeliavable.....i know its unfair to compare other great horses
over the years to arkle they are great in there own right..but there is only one arkle nothing ever came near his greatness !!! a FREAK !! as the voice of racing peter o sullivan always said they never will be another he was a one off and peter called home alot great horses over his career..... yes indeed a TRUE LEGEND THE MIGHTY ARKLE !!!

Nulty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYwWxp-eMPA

Baggio1

yup thats THE best chase performance i can think of,,,

dont forget it was his FIRST race of the season, Mill House - actually the boys miss the fact that at this stage he had actually been rejuvinated quite a bit and had already won a race that season so was battle hardened for this race, Dave.Nicholson rode him in this and his orders were on the 2nd circuit to make every post a winnning one and pulversie em all with pace and monster jumps - which he did,,, almost! "himself" passed him like a breeze and tore up the hill, Taaffe's biggest job was to pull him up!! funny enough the king george he won - the same thing happened , such was his energy and power that Taaffe couldnt pull him up till he was way passed the stands at the water jump in kempton! i seen that race online once was amazin.
So the Gallagher yeahh what a performance , and again all the eeegits today on both sides of the water say ah their wasnt much around bla bla thats waffle, his speed record round sandown STILL STANDS TODAY, no horse has got near it, and he did it with 12/7 and first run of the season,..... ive nothing against best mate, kauto,denman, or whatever,, but none of them has got close to THAT sort of greatness,,, and 2 things people keep forgetting:

1 Arkle was still at his peak when injured j.francombe says he was actually still improving!! so he never deteriated, so how many more gold cups, hennessy's, king georges, etc etc would he have won !!

2 and one thing i always think is - its not that people have forgotten how good Arkle was,,, theyv forgotten how good Mill House was!! he was everything Denman is/was but even better... thats my reading of it all,,, but treasure that Gallagher footage its an absolute example of the greatest of them all and why!!

ciao' racing dudes....

Morgans

I dont think anyone doubts that Arkle was the greatest.

However, there are some who seem drunk on the stories - not sure if anyone here remembers Arkle - but even overegging the pudding about a rejuvenated Mill House for the Gallagher Gold Cup.

Maybe yes, but Mill House finished third in the race - not second - and he subsequently won a Whitbread. It was not the Mill House of 1963 that Arkle beat then. He would have beaten Rondetto.

Someone in 30 years time may look back and wonder why Madison Du Berlais wasnt given more credit given he slammed Denman at Kempton and would have beaten him again at Aintree.

Timeform rated Arkle 212. Should we take the rating at face value? There are plenty of Arkle fans who say its correct and that he would be able to give Kauto Star at his best 20 odd pounds and a beating etc. Its seems impossible to imagine a horse a distance clear of Kauto Star in that King George. But it doesnt mean we shouldnt believe the ratings.

Of course if we believe the ratings, then Flyingbolt would beat Arkle getting 3lbs. And Arkle fans tend to gloss over this.

Its difficult to get a picture of objectively how great he was.

minty16

Tom Dreaper is on record saying that Flyingbolt would beat Arkle up to 3m. I think in those two horses we have the two greatest over 2 and 3.