Is this all your fault?

Mr Marri

This is a serious question, is this your (and my) fault?

I certainly share some of the blame, I sat back and let the government do what ever they liked as long as they didn't ask too much of me.

"evil triumphs when good men do nothing"

So what can I (we) change for the better? I don't just mean get FF out etc etc etc. I am interested in what ideas there are out there to improve the way we are governed?

My ideas so far…….
1) Demand total transparency in all aspects of public life, including the operation of companies.
2) Stop bashing the public sector, this is a waist of time and effort, we need positive constructive reform.
3) Place the interest of society before my own. (this is quiet the leap, I’m not sure if this is even possible.)
4) Avoid quete hoorism, fraud and corruption as it is corrosive and ultimately counter productive.

So what else do I (we) need to do?

Nody

Mr Marri wrote: »

So what else do I (we) need to do?

Only really require 1 thing; require accountability of the people you vote from. If they get your vote make it clear what you expect them to deliver and follow up with them if they do or not.

Of course since the great majority will not bother and instead give them a wish list it is only a cute idea rather then something that actually works.

Nody

Nody wrote: »

Only really require 1 thing; require accountability of the people you vote from. If they get your vote make it clear what you expect them to deliver and follow up with them if they do or not.

Of course since the great majority will not bother and instead give them a wish list it is only a cute idea rather then something that actually works.

Cannot be done without removing the party whip system
The whip system has to go its undemocratic
you end up with TDs voting as directed by their chief whip and not as the voters desire.

Cavehill Red

Yes, my name is Bartholomew Ahern and it is indeed all my fault.
I had a digout from some of my friends though.

Bob_Latchford

Bertie was up at the tribunal .

http://www.mahontribunal.com/index.php?title=Payments_to_Bertie_Ahern

and FF was winning the subsequent election. The people get the government that they deserve.

yawnstretch

How do we voice that we don't want this bailout?

As usual governments fast track this crap (like the xray scanners in the US) without consulting the people.

I wrote emails to the taoiseachs office but it seems that we're all just going to sit back and let this disaster happen.

Is there some way to stop it? I'm in work so I cant just travel to Dublin to join a protest and I doubt Im alone here.

Seriously not happy about this. They're selling our future when they should be making short-term cuts.

AndrewS

If you voted for Fianna Fail in the last two elections, then YES. Its your fault. If you did NOT exercise your right to vote in the elections, then YES its your fault.

Can anything be done to fix it? Yes. But its going to take a long time. There is no overnight fix for this, not even with the IMF/EU running the joint.

sarumite

Mr Marri wrote: »

This is a serious question, is this your (and my) fault?

I certainly share some of the blame, I sat back and let the government do what ever they liked as long as they didn't ask too much of me.

"evil triumphs when good men do nothing"

So what can I (we) change for the better? I don't just mean get FF out etc etc etc. I am interested in what ideas there are out there to improve the way we are governed?

My ideas so far…….
1) Demand total transparency in all aspects of public life, including the operation of companies.
2) Stop bashing the public sector, this is a waist of time and effort, we need positive constructive reform.
3) Place the interest of society before my own. (this is quiet the leap, I’m not sure if this is even possible.)
4) Avoid quete hoorism, fraud and corruption as it is corrosive and ultimately counter productive.

So what else do I (we) need to do?

1.) is good in theory, however I do not see how it will work with respect to private companies, especially large multi-nationals.

2.) The assumption that people who have serious reservations about paying PS workers at current rates as well as no job cuts with the promise of undefined efficiency savings as merely "public sector bashing" is as much a part of the problem as merely criticising the PS for the sake of criticising the PS.

3.) The "interest of society" will be an ongoing debate with so many differing opinions that getting a concensus would be nigh on impossible imo.

4.)They are already illegal...other than being greater oversight, I don't see what more can be done.

Cavehill Red

AndrewS wrote: »

If you voted for Fianna Fail in the last two elections, then YES. Its your fault. If you did NOT exercise your right to vote in the elections, then YES its your fault.

Can anything be done to fix it? Yes. But its going to take a long time. There is no overnight fix for this, not even with the IMF/EU running the joint.

We need to renege on the bank guarantee immediately. That would fix things, though not immediately.
Iceland did exactly that, and its economy is recovering only 18 months later.
We'd be a lot longer than that trying to fill in the black hole in Anglo and AIB's finances for the benefit of Roman Abramovich and his ilk.

Faustino

yawnstretch wrote: »

How do we voice that we don't want this bailout?

As usual governments fast track this crap (like the xray scanners in the US) without consulting the people.

I wrote emails to the taoiseachs office but it seems that we're all just going to sit back and let this disaster happen.

Is there some way to stop it? I'm in work so I cant just travel to Dublin to join a protest and I doubt Im alone here.

Seriously not happy about this. They're selling our future when they should be making short-term cuts.

Unfortunately, the people who are angry about this are far outweighed by the people who just sit by and don't say a thing.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1119/imf-business.html#audio

Paul de Grauwe, Professor of International Economics seems to think this situation was engineered at the European Summit two weeks ago, is he wrong as well, Uriel?

AndrewS

Cavehill Red wrote: »

We need to renege on the bank guarantee immediately. That would fix things, though not immediately.
Iceland did exactly that, and its economy is recovering only 18 months later.
We'd be a lot longer than that trying to fill in the black hole in Anglo and AIB's finances for the benefit of Roman Abramovich and his ilk.

You do understand that the state owns more than 90% of AIB, right? And a significant portion of BOI and other banks? If they renege on the guarantee, you will quickly see the absolute and total collapse of the banking sector which will throw the country in to even deeper chaos than it is in now.

By the way, I neglected to mention that I am faultless in this. I have never voted for Fianna Fail, nor the Greens, and I have voted in every election since gaining the right to vote.

Cavehill Red

AndrewS wrote: »

You do understand that the state owns more than 90% of AIB, right? And a significant portion of BOI and other banks? If they renege on the guarantee, you will quickly see the absolute and total collapse of the banking sector which will throw the country in to even deeper chaos than it is in now.

Bigger chaos than being on the hook for the entirety of their bonds?
I don't think so.
It didn't happen in Iceland and it won't happen here either.
We have other banks here. Solvent banks. By guaranteeing the corrupt indigenous ones, we ushered the competition out of our own market (Halifax, etc.)
People can bank with Rabo, Ulster, etc and be assured their cash is safe. In fact, by reneging on the bondholders, we can better ensure safety for the deposits in Anglo, AIB, etc.

AndrewS

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Bigger chaos than being on the hook for the entirety of their bonds?
I don't think so.
It didn't happen in Iceland and it won't happen here either.
We have other banks here. Solvent banks. By guaranteeing the corrupt indigenous ones, we ushered the competition out of our own market (Halifax, etc.)
People can bank with Rabo, Ulster, etc and be assured their cash is safe. In fact, by reneging on the bondholders, we can better ensure safety for the deposits in Anglo, AIB, etc.

Respectfully, just because it didn't happen in Iceland, doesn't mean it wont happen here. People are already panicked about the state of the banking system. Removing the guarantee is only going to serve to panic the people even further, which will be jumped on by the media, which feeds the panic again. Everyone will take their money out of the banks, close deposits and go back to mattress stuffing. With banks that are not guaranteed, there will be a severe lost of what little confidence people already had. Thats just the way it is in Ireland. Look at the banking strikes from the late 70s. Because people feared another series of strikes, they took their money out of the accounts and stopped spending. Which lead to? Thats right, recession.

sarumite

AndrewS wrote: »

You do understand that the state owns more than 90% of AIB, right? And a significant portion of BOI and other banks? If they renege on the guarantee, you will quickly see the absolute and total collapse of the banking sector which will throw the country in to even deeper chaos than it is in now.

By the way, I neglected to mention that I am faultless in this. I have never voted for Fianna Fail, nor the Greens, and I have voted in every election since gaining the right to vote.

So did you vote for an ineffective opposition?

yawnstretch

sarumite wrote: »

So did you vote for an ineffective opposition?

lol

Cavehill Red

AndrewS wrote: »

Respectfully, just because it didn't happen in Iceland, doesn't mean it wont happen here. People are already panicked about the state of the banking system. Removing the guarantee is only going to serve to panic the people even further, which will be jumped on by the media, which feeds the panic again. Everyone will take their money out of the banks, close deposits and go back to mattress stuffing. With banks that are not guaranteed, there will be a severe lost of what little confidence people already had. Thats just the way it is in Ireland. Look at the banking strikes from the late 70s. Because people feared another series of strikes, they took their money out of the accounts and stopped spending. Which lead to? Thats right, recession.

We're already IN a recession!
People SHOULD be panicked about the banking system. It's about to bankrupt the entire country due to the guarantee.
It's not our debt and we shouldn't pay it. We should renege and let AIB and Anglo go to the wall, paying only depositors instead (who are Irish residents in general and not Roman Abramovich or Swiss banks.)

Pistolpete1

AndrewS wrote: »

If you voted for Fianna Fail in the last two elections, then YES. Its your fault. If you did NOT exercise your right to vote in the elections, then YES its your fault.

From what i can remember in all Budgets, Other parties, eg FG/LAB were pushing for MORE expenditure and that FF were not spending enough. Now im not standing up for FF or anything but Listening to dail debates on budget during boom years ect ect they is a slight chance you could have been typing "If you voted FG/LAB then its ur fault" if they were in power. I honestly think what ever party was in power during this time was going to get the blame, There is no good government when a country is in trouble be it there fault or not, i think everyone have to share a blame,, Politicians, Regulator, Bankers for lending way beyond their means and lying about it and ordinary people for borrowing way to much which they, in reality could never pay off. Most people cant point the finger here and the ones that do are the ordinary people who borrowed too much, now cant pay so its everybodys fault but there own, i on the onther hand just finish college, made no money from this boom but am working and prepaired to but my head down, pay what ever taxes i cant and get the country back on track without constanly pointing the finger, it will do o good now!!!!!!!

P. Breathnach

AndrewS wrote: »

... By the way, I neglected to mention that I am faultless in this. I have never voted for Fianna Fail, nor the Greens, and I have voted in every election since gaining the right to vote.

You also need to be able to claim that you never voted for the PDs.

LK_Dave

yawnstretch wrote: »

How do we voice that we don't want this bailout?

Well you have made a start....roll on the revolution

yawnstretch wrote: »

As usual governments fast track this crap (like the xray scanners in the US) without consulting the people. .

What does x-ray machines in the US have to do with Ireland?

yawnstretch wrote: »

I wrote emails to the taoiseachs office but it seems that we're all just going to sit back and let this disaster happen. .

Put a read receipt on it!

yawnstretch wrote: »

Is there some way to stop it? I'm in work so I cant just travel to Dublin to join a protest and I doubt Im alone here.

What about weekends...take a day off. Or is it just more of an excuse?

yawnstretch wrote: »

Seriously not happy about this. They're selling our future when they should be making short-term cuts.

wasn't it by taking short-term measures that got us into this mess?

AndrewS

Cavehill Red wrote: »

We're already IN a recession!
People SHOULD be panicked about the banking system. It's about to bankrupt the entire country due to the guarantee.
It's not our debt and we shouldn't pay it. We should renege and let AIB and Anglo go to the wall, paying only depositors instead (who are Irish residents in general and not Roman Abramovich or Swiss banks.)

I never said we weren't in a recession!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know the country is about to be bankrupt, and I've been saying it for a while now. Even when they claimed growth in Q1 meant we were out of recession. And believe me, if you think this is as bad as it gets, theres a whole lot more bad to come. And it will be even worse if they remove the guarantee.

And for the record, I voted for the people that I felt should have been in power. I voted my conscience because I disagreed with some of the policies at the time. And because of an intense dislike for the people in power.

AndrewS

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You also need to be able to claim that you never voted for the PDs.

Yes, I can make such an assertion too. I have not ever, and never will vote for Fianna Fail, Green, PD, Sinn Fein.

Cavehill Red

AndrewS wrote: »

I never said we weren't in a recession!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know the country is about to be bankrupt, and I've been saying it for a while now. Even when they claimed growth in Q1 meant we were out of recession. And believe me, if you think this is as bad as it gets, theres a whole lot more bad to come. And it will be even worse if they remove the guarantee.

How, exactly?
We would be off the hook to the tune of around 100 billion euro for a start.

ednwireland

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You also need to be able to claim that you never voted for the PDs.

or an independant that voted with the gov.

sarumite

AndrewS wrote: »

Yes, I can make such an assertion too. I have not ever, and never will vote for Fianna Fail, Green, PD, Sinn Fein.

Was your reason for not voting for them because of a difference in idealogy, or merely that you didn't like the way they are running the economy during the boom years?

yawnstretch

LK_Dave wrote: »

Well you have made a start....roll on the revolution

What does x-ray machines in the US have to do with Ireland?

Put a read receipt on it!

What about weekends...take a day off. Or is it just more of an excuse?

wasn't it by taking short-term measures that got us into this mess?

Am on a phone so excuse lack of formatting.

Is a total overhaul really necessary (re revolution)?

Xray machines like this bailout are an example of government making a massive change without asking for permission.

Re: Read receipt - I've emailed every local councillor too - anyone else want to do the same? Lets reverse this. Bring the pain! This bailout is the worst possible move - worse than short term pain. World economy will recover but we won't if we go ahead with this.

Re weekends - if it's organised for tomorrow I'll go.

murphaph

AndrewS wrote: »

If you voted for Fianna Fail in the last two elections, then YES. Its your fault. If you did NOT exercise your right to vote in the elections, then YES its your fault.

Can anything be done to fix it? Yes. But its going to take a long time. There is no overnight fix for this, not even with the IMF/EU running the joint.

Agreed BUT also:

If you contacted your TD(s) to try to "organise" something (like skipping the queue for a hip replacement, getting planning permission or fixing potholes) then you are also part of the problem.

If aou haven't made any contact with your elected representatives about NATIONAL and INTERNATIONAL issues (ie, their job) then you are also repsonsible. They must hear from us or they assume (rightly) that nobody really cares enough and they keep riding the gravy train while we keep complaining to each other that "all politicians are the same".

In short, people who up until now have only taken an interest in politics to "get something for themselves or their parish" or people who have not engaged in politics at all, or people who have endorsed the reckless policies of FF are all to blame.

At a lower level, people who paid without questioning/haggling for things when they knew full well that they were being ripped off (unless the item in question was absolutely essential, and HINT: TV's a DVD recorders don't count as essential) are also responsible.

LK_Dave

murphaph wrote: »

Agreed BUT also:

If you contacted your TD(s) to try to "organise" something (like skipping the queue for a hip replacement, getting planning permission or fixing potholes) then you are also part of the problem.

If aou haven't made any contact with your elected representatives about NATIONAL and INTERNATIONAL issues (ie, their job) then you are also repsonsible. They must hear from us or they assume (rightly) that nobody really cares enough and they keep riding the gravy train while we keep complaining to each other that "all politicians are the same".

In short, people who up until now have only taken an interest in politics to "get something for themselves or their parish" or people who have not engaged in politics at all, or people who have endorsed the reckless policies of FF are all to blame.

At a lower level, people who paid without questioning/haggling for things when they knew full well that they were being ripped off (unless the item in question was absolutely essential, and HINT: TV's a DVD recorders don't count as essential) are also responsible.

I like your way of thinking, hell you can come over and screw my local cc
councillor any day