dog fight

portgirl123

im posting this for a neighbour who lives at the back of me. yesterday i was dropping her young one home as my daughter and hers where at a school club. We are not best mates or anything but girls are friends and we share school run. anyhows she has 2 dogs a 6 yr old springer female, spayed and a 3 yr old staffy bitch female, spayed as well. Always been best friends, sleep in kitchen together, play together but always have separate time with owner. They go on 3 long walks aday, on and off lead. fields near us that her parents own so staf can have a off lead run.
yesterday as i said we were in kitchen, dogs were outside, next thing holy war broke out. we went outside and staf had springer on ground had he by front leg biting. springer was screaming in pain, we managed to separate them but staf went back again and this time was the springer back leg, the 2nd attack happened when we there. this time a bowl of water was throwing. owner grabbed staf and put her down back of garden.
poor springer had to go the vets 3 wounds on back and 1 on front. owner is in a state as she dont know if this will happen again, 2 minor fights have broke out in last 2 weeks which never has happened before. she is taking staf to vet this morning to make sure she aint sick or anything that might be making her cranky.
She cant think of anything that has changed, she dont know who staring fights, one broke out in house last week, she says both dogs where in sitting room, they were watching tv when dogs went at it but it was only she says a minor squabble.
At moment dogs are separated, 1 slept in kitchen, 1 in utility room. the funny thing was she said they both cried for each other and when she let them oput this morning, under supervision the staf went over and licked the springer, though the springer seems very wary.
sorry for long thread, but any advise will be very welcome

common sense brigade

If I were you I would keep my children well away from that house and those dogs. its only a matter of time till one of them bites a human. My instinct tells me the staffy is the aggressor. Springers are docile dogs. But as there is no concrete proof i see its a sensitive position for the owner to be in. I would rehome one dog , go to an animal shelter explain whats happening. and see if the shelter think the dog can be rehomed. Aggressive dogs may not be rehomed. but please proceed with caution and keep your children away from that house.

ISDW

OK, she says nothing has changed, but it could still be hormonal, one of my bitches is spayed, has been for years, but still has 'false seasons' where she acts as though she's in season, even standing for dogs. See if the vulva's are swollen at all.

Tough time for your neighbour, and you wouldn't know, if nobody saw how the fight started, who the aggressor was. I would suggest she take them to the vets seperately to give them a check up, see if anything medical is going on.

DBCyc

She is doing the right thing by separating the dogs for the time being. A dog fight is a frightening thing to witness, especially when a dog gets hurt.

Dogs wont hold grudges usually so they may get on really well together after the fight but the owner needs to be really careful.

common sense brigade wrote: »

If I were you I would keep my children well away from that house and those dogs. its only a matter of time till one of them bites a human. My instinct tells me the staffy is the aggressor. Springers are docile dogs. But as there is no concrete proof i see its a sensitive position for the owner to be in. I would rehome one dog , go to an animal shelter explain whats happening. and see if the shelter think the dog can be rehomed. Aggressive dogs may not be rehomed. but please proceed with caution and keep your children away from that house.

Obviously you would not want your children near dogs who may break into a fight but there is no reason for them to bite any person unless they get in the middle of a fight.

As for your instinct telling you that the staffy is the "aggressor" - what are you basing this on? Either dog could have started the fight, but of course due to the strength of a staffy, a springer would always come out second best. Staffies are tenacious dogs and would typically never back down from a challenge, but they do not necessarily start fights and are as friendly a dog as a springer.

seamus

common sense brigade wrote: »

If I were you I would keep my children well away from that house and those dogs. its only a matter of time till one of them bites a human.

Dogs fighting between themselves is no indicator of any tendency towards aggression against humans. Dogs argue just like people argue. I see no reason for children to avoid the house so long as there's adequate supervision at all times that the dogs and children are in the same room. As it should be anyway.

My instinct tells me the staffy is the aggressor.

If she's anything like my staffie, then she very rarely starts an argument, but by jaysus she'll finish it.
If they get cranky though, they can be very standoffish with other dogs which can cause tensions to rise, so I would go with ISDW's suggestion first and foremost:

ISDW wrote: »

OK, she says nothing has changed, but it could still be hormonal, one of my bitches is spayed, has been for years, but still has 'false seasons' where she acts as though she's in season, even standing for dogs. See if the vulva's are swollen at all.

My instinct here would be to suck it and see. Keep them separated overnight for now and keep them supervised together during the day. There's no history of aggression in either dog and they previously got along, so this is likely just an argument which got out of hand. If the staff was intent on killing the Springer, she wouldn't have gone for its legs, and you'd be nursing crushed bones, not wounds.

common sense brigade

Hi ,oh absoultley I agree staffys are lovely dogs . Just suppose you read horror stories about them as they are strong animals and have been known to be aggressive if not socialised and treated properly. But fair point the springer could be the aggressor. That is why I said it was just an instinct. Personally I have young daughter and a dog but if my dog showed a hint af aggression , i would rehome him. I would never put my child at risk in her own home for the sake of a dog. I have a 5 year old samoyed. He is much loved family pet, but I would not tolerate aggression in him. And in the 5 years I have had him he has been nothing but an big softie. Just my opinion. Im not advocating destroying the dog or anything like that. Definitely get a vets opinion on what to do for the best.

ISDW

common sense brigade wrote: »

Hi , oh absoultley I agree staffys are lovely dogs . Just suppose you read horror stories about them as they are strong animals and have been known to be aggressive if not socialised and treated properly. But fair point the springer could be the aggressor. That is why I said it was just an instinct. Personally I have young daughter and a dog but if my dog showed a hint af aggression , i would rehome him. I would never put my child at risk in her own home for the sake of a dog. Just my opinion. Im not advocating destroying the dog or anything like that. Definitely get a vets opinion on what to do for the best.

Unfortunately though, the dog would be put to sleep, as rescues are so busy at the moment, they won't take a dog in with a history of aggression. However, I think that there is a huge difference between a dog with aggression issues towards another dog, and one that is aggressive towards humans.

Lets hope there is a small medical reason for it, it could even just be something as simple as ear mites, making one of the dogs cranky. I rehomed a dog from the RSPCA once, he was a nightmare with other dogs, but was fine with my two bitches, so he came home with us. However, he attacked every other dog he could get to, snapping a lead one time to get to one poor boy. One of his big canine teeth came out, and he was a changed dog, he was a big, soppy, friendly dog after that, never had another fight. So I think he had toothache and that was what was making him aggressive.

seamus

common sense brigade wrote: »

Just suppose you read horror stories about them as they are strong animals and have been known to be aggressive if not socialised and treated properly.

Without intending to drag this into a Staffy thread, I think this is often misconstrued. As DBCyc says, they're tenacious. I have never heard my Staff growl or bark at another dog. When we meet another dog she runs over to say hi and have a sniff. But if the other growls, even the lowest, weakest growl you've ever heard, she doesn't back away and do a mexican stand off (like you'll see with other breeds). Instead she instantly just accepts the challenge and goes for it.
So I reckon the initial growl is often missed (or can't be heard) by onlookers and it looks like the staff just snapped and went crazy for no reason.

Without obviously knowing the full extent of the Springer's injuries, I would be inclined to look at simple flesh wounds as a good sign in this dog fight. The bite strength of a staff cannot be underestimated (as I learned when I nearly lost the top of my index finger). The springer could have very quickly been down one leg if the staff intended to cause proper damage.

common sense brigade

I think ISDW has a very good point. I remember years ago my aunts dog , a german shepard suddenly turned aggressive after years of being just a normal well balanced dog. Turned out he had two very bad teeth that were causing him alot of pain. once removed he returned to normal completely. Its worth a shot. Hopefully the vet can sort this.

DBCyc

common sense brigade wrote: »

I think ISDW has a very good point. I remember years ago my aunts dog , a german shepard suddenly turned aggressive after years of being just a normal well balanced dog. Turned out he had two very bad teeth that were causing him alot of pain. once removed he returned to normal completely. Its worth a shot. Hopefully the vet can sort this.

Yeah it would be great for the OP's neighbour if something like this was the case as it should be a straight forward solution. It is definitely worth taking both dogs to the vet, explain what happened, and get them checked over.

portgirl123

springer was checked over last nite and apart from its injuries everything else was fine. Staf was brought this morning and again nothing, vet says both dogs are the picture of health. have been separated most of the morning as her hubby is away from home today and as i seen yesterday would be very hard to break up if anything broke out again. hubby had the staf on walk this morning and he says she still greating her friend dogs in the same friendly manner, thougfh he has her muzzled today out just in case.
the ower is abit upset after coming back from vets, she says she was praying something was amiss with one of the dogs at least then she says she would have a idea of wat happened.
I have minded these dogs on and of for the last 5 yrs the odd weekend and not a more friendly pair would you usually meet. both are well cared for, mostly in but they have out time as well. the staff is the most gentielest dog you would meet, she really did scare me last nite as i have never seen a staf fight before, my god they dont give in.
Going to be hard to have them permantely seperated as these aint the biggest houses in the world and not only that my neighbour says it would break her heart to see this happen

seamus

portgirl123 wrote: »

Going to be hard to have them permantely seperated as these aint the biggest houses in the world and not only that my neighbour says it would break her heart to see this happen

It doesn't have to be permanent, really. Her confidence with the two dogs will grow, as will their confidence together and she'll know when the time is right to leave them together again.
It's probably a bit late now, but if you can think back on the incident to see if there's something they missed, some trigger for the fight, then that makes it easier to manage the problem in future. Much harder to get your confidence back with the dog when you don't know what set them off in the first place.

Good to hear that the springer's OK.

common sense brigade

found some info that may be helpful, so sorry to hear th evet could not help
Here are some interesting facts:
-The causes of struggles between dogs can be various but the most common seems to be dominance related.
-The most severe struggles surprisingly appear to happen between two female dogs
-Male and female dog combination seem the most likely to get along
-And surprisingly again, it seems that most struggles occur in the presence of the owner.
Aging is another common cause of struggles in multi-dog homes, this occurs when you own an elderly dog and a younger dog. A struggle is picked up when the younger dog starts challenging the elder's dog position in order to try to change the pack order. This occurs especially when the older dog starts exhibiting signs of aging, weakness or sickness.
In nature these dominance struggles are pretty common as they help determine the position of the pack. It surely hurts for the owner to see their loving dogs suddenly turn aggressive towards each other especially when the struggle turns bloody.
It is vital that the owner uses extreme caution when separating two struggling dogs. Even though the owner may blindly trust it's two dogs, the dogs may exhibit redirected aggression and mistakenly strike him/her. It's a shame when this happens because the owner in truth had only good intentions to protect the pets.
In order to avoid this for future reference the owner can separate the dogs by spraying them with a hose, or by tossing a over them to confuse them and hopefully stop the fight. A loud noise may also startle them for a few seconds
The owner must try to identify which of the two dogs is "boss". He/she can tell by seeing which dog gets in and out the door first, which one has the most wanted toy, wants to get pet first or sleeps in the best place. When dogs know where they belong in their rank then everything goes peacefully.
Struggles pick up when the alpha dog feels that another dog is a threat to his social status. The alpha dog therefore, makes continuously sure that the pack order is maintained and checks that everyone keeps its place.
Higher in this rank then there is you, the owner aka "the real alpha" and you are the one that needs to show that no fights are tolerated in your household. When your dog begins to show signs of an imminent struggle (growling, barking, aggressive posture) you will exercise your authority by saying in a firm mean voice "Stop it" or "Leave it " or whatever wording works best for you.It must be clear to your dogs that struggling will not be allowed and you mean business.
You can start out by having the dog that picks up struggles on a leash so a quick snap accompanied by your wording will take place. Repeat several times and then try as safely as possible without the leash.
Be prepared with a water hose or blanket if the struggle gets off hand. After several attempts the message should be clear and the "alpha dog" should understand that even though he may be dominant he will still have to deal with your dominance first.
However, it is best to keep the struggling dogs separated for a while,especially if you are not able to monitor in order to avoid injuries. Next, once you have successfully identified the alpha dog of your pack, then start treating him just as what he is, thus the dominant dog.
I know we all would wish to treat all dogs as equal but this is unfortunately not how their world goes.Treating the dog as the dominant dog will help re-order the pack position and your other dog should understand that he/she is on the lower end of the ladder. You can accomplish this by feeding the alpha dog first, petting him first and taking him out for walks first (remember to show your superiority to him by walking out the door first).
However, in some cases dogs may never get perfectly along as before. At this point you may think about obedience training,contacting a dog behaviorist, keeping them in separated areas permanently or giving one up.
Even though this last solution may seem a bit extreme and heart breaking, if you are unable to permanently keep them separated, it is the best solution to grant your dog's well-being and safety. After all, in the wild these dogs would leave the pack and wander around until they are accepted in another pack

DBCyc

I think that the dog owner will be able to let the dogs be together again eventually, but under close supervision. If they could recognise a few signs before a fight may occur and correct the dogs then, they may stop altogether after a while

Some good advice there. I had to read this sentence twice

common sense brigade wrote: »

...In order to avoid this for future reference the owner can separate the dogs by spraying them with a hose, or by tossing a over them to confuse them and hopefully stop the fight.

Actually...on re-reading, there's a word missing there.

common sense brigade

it was meant to be tossing a blanket! over them to confuse them

canonball5

common sense brigade wrote: »

found some info that may be helpful, so sorry to hear th evet could not help
Here are some interesting facts:
-The causes of struggles between dogs can be various but the most common seems to be dominance related.
-The most severe struggles surprisingly appear to happen between two female dogs
-Male and female dog combination seem the most likely to get along
-And surprisingly again, it seems that most struggles occur in the presence of the owner.
Aging is another common cause of struggles in multi-dog homes, this occurs when you own an elderly dog and a younger dog. A struggle is picked up when the younger dog starts challenging the elder's dog position in order to try to change the pack order. This occurs especially when the older dog starts exhibiting signs of aging, weakness or sickness.
In nature these dominance struggles are pretty common as they help determine the position of the pack. It surely hurts for the owner to see their loving dogs suddenly turn aggressive towards each other especially when the struggle turns bloody.
It is vital that the owner uses extreme caution when separating two struggling dogs. Even though the owner may blindly trust it's two dogs, the dogs may exhibit redirected aggression and mistakenly strike him/her. It's a shame when this happens because the owner in truth had only good intentions to protect the pets.
In order to avoid this for future reference the owner can separate the dogs by spraying them with a hose, or by tossing a over them to confuse them and hopefully stop the fight. A loud noise may also startle them for a few seconds
The owner must try to identify which of the two dogs is "boss". He/she can tell by seeing which dog gets in and out the door first, which one has the most wanted toy, wants to get pet first or sleeps in the best place. When dogs know where they belong in their rank then everything goes peacefully.
Struggles pick up when the alpha dog feels that another dog is a threat to his social status. The alpha dog therefore, makes continuously sure that the pack order is maintained and checks that everyone keeps its place.
Higher in this rank then there is you, the owner aka "the real alpha" and you are the one that needs to show that no fights are tolerated in your household. When your dog begins to show signs of an imminent struggle (growling, barking, aggressive posture) you will exercise your authority by saying in a firm mean voice "Stop it" or "Leave it " or whatever wording works best for you.It must be clear to your dogs that struggling will not be allowed and you mean business.
You can start out by having the dog that picks up struggles on a leash so a quick snap accompanied by your wording will take place. Repeat several times and then try as safely as possible without the leash.
Be prepared with a water hose or blanket if the struggle gets off hand. After several attempts the message should be clear and the "alpha dog" should understand that even though he may be dominant he will still have to deal with your dominance first.
However, it is best to keep the struggling dogs separated for a while,especially if you are not able to monitor in order to avoid injuries. Next, once you have successfully identified the alpha dog of your pack, then start treating him just as what he is, thus the dominant dog.
I know we all would wish to treat all dogs as equal but this is unfortunately not how their world goes.Treating the dog as the dominant dog will help re-order the pack position and your other dog should understand that he/she is on the lower end of the ladder. You can accomplish this by feeding the alpha dog first, petting him first and taking him out for walks first (remember to show your superiority to him by walking out the door first).
However, in some cases dogs may never get perfectly along as before. At this point you may think about obedience training,contacting a dog behaviorist, keeping them in separated areas permanently or giving one up.
Even though this last solution may seem a bit extreme and heart breaking, if you are unable to permanently keep them separated, it is the best solution to grant your dog's well-being and safety. After all, in the wild these dogs would leave the pack and wander around until they are accepted in another pack

I would have to agree with this,I work with animals and 9/10 times if a pair of the same sex animal have been together and suddenly start fighting it's a dominance issue.One of the dogs may feel it's time to make a move as the "Pack Leader" and needs to show who is top dog(excuse the pun)This will happen again,so the owner needs to be careful she does not favour one of the other.I would guess these fights will only happen when the Male owner of the dogs is not around as when he is he is the"Pack Leader"

portgirl123

canonball5 wrote: »

I would have to agree with this,I work with animals and 9/10 times if a pair of the same sex animal have been together and suddenly start fighting it's a dominance issue.One of the dogs may feel it's time to make a move as the "Pack Leader" and needs to show who is top dog(excuse the pun)This will happen again,so the owner needs to be careful she does not favour one of the other.I would guess these fights will only happen when the Male owner of the dogs is not around as when he is he is the"Pack Leader"

the male owner was there yesterday, just by the time he heard us, the fight was over. he was in other room. also the fight in the house both owners and kids were all present in the same room as the dogs, i know this cos she said last nite it could have been worst if he wasnt there.
Calling in later to see how things are today. when she dropped my child of today she said things were ok but when not leaving them alone at the moment

EGAR

common sense brigade wrote: »

found some info that may be helpful, so sorry to hear th evet could not help
Here are some interesting facts:
-The causes of struggles between dogs can be various but the most common seems to be dominance related.
-The most severe struggles surprisingly appear to happen between two female dogs
-Male and female dog combination seem the most likely to get along
-And surprisingly again, it seems that most struggles occur in the presence of the owner.
Aging is another common cause of struggles in multi-dog homes, this occurs when you own an elderly dog and a younger dog. A struggle is picked up when the younger dog starts challenging the elder's dog position in order to try to change the pack order. This occurs especially when the older dog starts exhibiting signs of aging, weakness or sickness.
In nature these dominance struggles are pretty common as they help determine the position of the pack. It surely hurts for the owner to see their loving dogs suddenly turn aggressive towards each other especially when the struggle turns bloody.
It is vital that the owner uses extreme caution when separating two struggling dogs. Even though the owner may blindly trust it's two dogs, the dogs may exhibit redirected aggression and mistakenly strike him/her. It's a shame when this happens because the owner in truth had only good intentions to protect the pets.
In order to avoid this for future reference the owner can separate the dogs by spraying them with a hose, or by tossing a over them to confuse them and hopefully stop the fight. A loud noise may also startle them for a few seconds
The owner must try to identify which of the two dogs is "boss". He/she can tell by seeing which dog gets in and out the door first, which one has the most wanted toy, wants to get pet first or sleeps in the best place. When dogs know where they belong in their rank then everything goes peacefully.
Struggles pick up when the alpha dog feels that another dog is a threat to his social status. The alpha dog therefore, makes continuously sure that the pack order is maintained and checks that everyone keeps its place.
Higher in this rank then there is you, the owner aka "the real alpha" and you are the one that needs to show that no fights are tolerated in your household. When your dog begins to show signs of an imminent struggle (growling, barking, aggressive posture) you will exercise your authority by saying in a firm mean voice "Stop it" or "Leave it " or whatever wording works best for you.It must be clear to your dogs that struggling will not be allowed and you mean business.
You can start out by having the dog that picks up struggles on a leash so a quick snap accompanied by your wording will take place. Repeat several times and then try as safely as possible without the leash.
Be prepared with a water hose or blanket if the struggle gets off hand. After several attempts the message should be clear and the "alpha dog" should understand that even though he may be dominant he will still have to deal with your dominance first.
However, it is best to keep the struggling dogs separated for a while,especially if you are not able to monitor in order to avoid injuries. Next, once you have successfully identified the alpha dog of your pack, then start treating him just as what he is, thus the dominant dog.
I know we all would wish to treat all dogs as equal but this is unfortunately not how their world goes.Treating the dog as the dominant dog will help re-order the pack position and your other dog should understand that he/she is on the lower end of the ladder. You can accomplish this by feeding the alpha dog first, petting him first and taking him out for walks first (remember to show your superiority to him by walking out the door first).
However, in some cases dogs may never get perfectly along as before. At this point you may think about obedience training,contacting a dog behaviorist, keeping them in separated areas permanently or giving one up.
Even though this last solution may seem a bit extreme and heart breaking, if you are unable to permanently keep them separated, it is the best solution to grant your dog's well-being and safety. After all, in the wild these dogs would leave the pack and wander around until they are accepted in another pack

You forgot to give the source: http://hubpages.com/hub/When-dogs-do-not-get-along


Fights between bitches can be a lot more destructive than fights amongst males. I am not a big fan of the *dog is a wolf so let them fight it out* brigade, especially when the strength of the two dogs is unequal. Two dogs are just that, two dogs - not a pack. And amongst them the status of top bitch is often flowing and forever moving sometimes changes are so subtle that most of us will miss them, the same goes for signals to start a fight. It is not always accompanied by overt behaviour obvious to us nor is it necessarily preceded by growling/snarling e.g. threatening behaviour. As such it is veru difficult to break up before damage is done.

I would strongly suggest that OP's neighbour gets a GOOD behaviourist in who can observe the dogs in their home. Bull Breeds can have a different body language to other breeds when it comes to the run up to a fight, so IMHO it is a must that the behaviourist has Bull Breed experience.

Blue136

:)Hi
My first post. I had the same problem 2 years ago when suddenly my bitch Liach and her son Boris who had lived together in perfect harmony for 9 years started fighting. It was shocking and confidence draining. Read a load of dog behaviour books advocating the alpha dog theory. Tried this but it only helped a little . Then I discovered Cesar Millan, the Dog Whisperer, on Nat Geo Wild every evening at 7pm. Bought 2 of his books also on Amazon and when I felt I understood the basics of HOW TO BE THE PACK LEADER, I put it into action. I never had another fight and they lived very happily together for the last 6 months of my bitch's life. Its all about you the human. I was in a low energy state without knowing it and my male dog had to take over the leadership role because in the dog world, someone has to be the pack leader. Once I took over the role, he happily settled back into his old self. Even if you do have some incidents or relapses, keep calm and assertive. Keeping the dogs seperated does not solve the problem, so educate yourself and get started. Cesar's approach is actually quite simple and straighforward. Just do it. I will be eternally grateful to him for Liach's happy last 6 months.

Every human in the house including the children are the pack leaders and all the dogs are the followers. Often women have a softer energy and this can be interpreted as a weakness in the dog world. There is no place for agression or anger though. Cesar describes it as a calm assertiveness. The pack walk is one of the best ways of establishing your leadership. And walking dogs together when you are the leader helps them to rebond. I could go on all night. But you do need to watch a good few episodes to really get the message as a lot of the programmes are edited for the regular viewers.

The bottom line is that the Cesar method really works so don't give up.

Good luck and keep calm and assertive!

ISDW

Blue136 wrote: »

:)Hi
My first post. I had the same problem 2 years ago when suddenly my bitch Liach and her son Boris who had lived together in perfect harmony for 9 years started fighting. It was shocking and confidence draining. Read a load of dog behaviour books advocating the alpha dog theory. Tried this but it only helped a little . Then I discovered Cesar Millan, the Dog Whisperer, on Nat Geo Wild every evening at 7pm. Bought 2 of his books also on Amazon and when I felt I understood the basics of HOW TO BE THE PACK LEADER, I put it into action. I never had another fight and they lived very happily together for the last 6 months of my bitch's life. Its all about you the human. I was in a low energy state without knowing it and my male dog had to take over the leadership role because in the dog world, someone has to be the pack leader. Once I took over the role, he happily settled back into his old self. Even if you do have some incidents or relapses, keep calm and assertive. Keeping the dogs seperated does not solve the problem, so educate yourself and get started. Cesar's approach is actually quite simple and straighforward. Just do it. I will be eternally grateful to him for Liach's happy last 6 months.

Every human in the house including the children are the pack leaders and all the dogs are the followers. Often women have a softer energy and this can be interpreted as a weakness in the dog world. There is no place for agression or anger though. Cesar describes it as a calm assertiveness. The pack walk is one of the best ways of establishing your leadership. And walking dogs together when you are the leader helps them to rebond. I could go on all night. But you do need to watch a good few episodes to really get the message as a lot of the programmes are edited for the regular viewers.

The bottom line is that the Cesar method really works so don't give up.

Good luck and keep calm and assertive!

Can I ask why you only had 6 months with the dogs after you started using these methods?

There are a lot of people who totally disagree with Cesar's methods, and if you do watch the programmes, you will see the disclaimer telling people not to try his methods without the assistance of a behaviourist. He has been bitten many, many times, so I wouldn't suggest anyone put his theories into practice.

Blue136

Hi
My bitch Liach only lasted 6 months because sadly she died of cancer at the age of twelve after a long battle.
Yes I have read the comments of the people who disagree with Cesar Millan's methods and it seems obvious to me that they either don't watch or read what her does properly or they just don't understand it. There awill always be people who agree and disagree with methods..that is democracy. I am just giving the benefit of my experience using his methods. Of course you have to be very careful but the alternative to not addressing your own dog's issues is to euthanase one of them. I am not suggesting that anyone go and endanger themselves with human aggressive dogs. This lady is living with these two dogs and without dealing with these issues she is putting herself and her family at risk anyway.

ISDW

Blue136 wrote: »

Hi
My bitch Liach only lasted 6 months because sadly she died of cancer at the age of twelve after a long battle.
Yes I have read the comments of the people who disagree with Cesar Millan's methods and it seems obvious to me that they either don't watch or read what her does properly or they just don't understand it. There awill always be people who agree and disagree with methods..that is democracy. I am just giving the benefit of my experience using his methods. Of course you have to be very careful but the alternative to not addressing your own dog's issues is to euthanase one of them. I am not suggesting that anyone go and endanger themselves with human aggressive dogs. This lady is living with these two dogs and without dealing with these issues she is putting herself and her family at risk anyway.

I totally understand what Cesar Milan does, and I do watch it properly, including the disclaimer on every episode that says not to try his methods without the help of a behaviourist present. I didn't say not to address the issues, but I would get a behaviourist in to see whats going on and work with the dogs.

Do you think that there might be a chance that your dog's personality changed because she was ill, and this led to the fights? Maybe she was in pain, a very likely scenario I would suggest.

Whispered

Blue136 wrote: »

My bitch Liach only lasted 6 months because sadly she died of cancer at the age of twelve after a long battle.
.

Sorry to hear about your Liach.

Blue136 wrote: »

it seems obvious to me that they either don't watch or read what her does properly or they just don't understand it.

I used to watch - I stopped after 2 particular episodes.

His books are better, and I have mixed felings on him. Sometimes he seems to get it so right, other times his methods appear cruel and outdated.

Also whatever you think about posters here and their inability to understand the basic concept of dominance, you cannot doubt the ability of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior to judge.
http://vetmedicine.about.com/b/2009/07/07/veterinary-behaviorists-take-a-stand-against-cesar-millan.htm

"The AVSAB recommends that veterinarians not refer clients to trainers or behavior consultants who coach and advocate dominance hierarchy theory and the subsequent confrontational training that follows from it," the position statement says.
That statement was initiated with Millan in mind, says Dr. Laurie Bergman, of Norristown, Pa., a member of AVSAB's executive board.
"We had been moving away from dominance theory and punitive training techniques for a while, but, unfortunately, Cesar Millan has brought it back," she says.

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I would be of the opinion that it's not a good idea to deal with behaviour problems caused by a physical ailment using a dominance method. And that, in my opinion is why Milan has the disclaimers. Because his methods are absolutely not suitable for all cases, and people using them where not appropiate may get results, but at what cost to the dog?

Anyway, I don't want to pull off topic much more and of course you're entitled to you opinion. I'm glad it worked for you! But it might not be a great idea to recommend training methods which come with a "do not try this at home" warning.

Graces7

There must needs have been a trigger; we have two dogs who will scrap if left together and it takes a balance to prevent this.

The main trigger is food.Maybe one dog here found a bone or a scrap of food that the other wanted. That will cause a ruckus with our two every time and the ferocious sounding growling will start.

We always assumed that it was wee dog who started this; but then we caught collie stopping wee dog from sharing the settee. .

Wee dog was only dog until collie, needy as she was, arrived. They have never "gelled" simply and we know this and take care never to leave them alone together. The jealousy is amazing.

And it simply is there. They have never fought seriously; but they may well do so one day.

I think it was Egar who so wisely said these so called alpha issues are not clear cut or permanent. With our two, it is food that is the major riot cause

And as someone has said, this does not mean that they would ever attack a human. Certainly even when that old man hit collie there was no hint of aggression.

The theories here cut no ice with us; we are the centre of the dogs; lived; their compass, their lodestone and we are not of their species. But we are in authority over them.

Blue136

Hi ISDW
Liach was not the agressor, it was the dog Boris. Liach was already the old one and some of the top behaviour books suggested that her being weaker was the reason for the dominance behaviour. However using Cesars methods and succeeding in removing the problem by me being pack leader showed me that the illness or weakness was not the issue.

I certainly never suggested dealing with behaviour issues caused by illness using a dominance technique, Whispered. My attention was directed towards Boris who was fit and healthy. It took one or two slight corrections but mainly me taking the leadership role and the problem was solved.
Use of Behaviourists are alll very well but many of them recommend euthanasia for agression issues and so don't have effective methods. This is the ultimate cost to the dogs for us not dealing with issues.
I would love to challenge every part of your thread in detail most of which I respectfully disagree with but this gets away from this lady's issue.

Anyway back to the problem at hand. I do think that the use of the humane Baskerville muzzle applied when both you and the dogs are in a relaxed state with positive reinforcement, would be a useful and safe tool for this siuation. This is safer for the humans and also makes us more relaxed when addressing the issues whcih helps.

Whispered

Blue136 wrote: »

I certainly never suggested dealing with behaviour issues caused by illness using a dominance technique, Whispered. My attention was directed towards Boris who was fit and healthy. It took one or two slight corrections but mainly me taking the leadership role and the problem was solved.
Use of Behaviourists are alll very well but many of them recommend euthanasia for agression issues and so don't have effective methods. This is the ultimate cost to the dogs for us not dealing with issues.
I would love to challenge every part of your thread in detail most of which I respectfully disagree with but this gets away from this lady's issue..

I never said you did, I used it as an example of where these methods may work in the eyes of the owner but was not a good way of dealing with the problem in the long run. Another example would be using the method on fearful dogs. If anything would make a fearful dog likely to snap, it would be dominating it into a corner so to speak. The problem with Milans methods is that if used in the wrong place/time can cause more damage to the dog and person than the original problem.

Watching Milan for years I never once saw him look for physical causes for agression, I watched maybe 3 of another training programme and saw the trainer sending a dog off for blood tests. Turns out he had a problem which commonly causes agression (if I remember correctly with his thyroid but that could be wrong it was a few months ago) and needed meds as well as training. Milan would have gone in all gung ho and made an already sick dog more miserable. If he checks for physical problems before it should be made clear to the people watching his programme.

Good behaviourists only recommend euthanasia in very very extreme circumstances.

There is not much in my post to disagree with to be honest, I said I had mixed feelings on him and then quoted the AVSAB. But you're right about the topic being something else. I would love to continue this conversation in another, more appropiate thread.