Punish the bankers etc.

virmilitaris

Hey everyone.

I just came across this video on youtube from Russia today.

Basically they say people like Sean Quinn and Sean Fitzpatrick are financial 'terrorists' and should be in prison or worse.

The guy in the video seems a bit 'loud' if you get my meaning but I'm honestly curious why the bankers and other people who have gotten us into this mess aren't in prison or worse ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQFHgcFlrlw

DeVore

Im so sick of Terrorist being stuck on the end of everything in order to curry favour with people. it smacks of not having a solid point that will stand on it's own.

If they have committed crime, then they are criminals and should be punished. IMHO they are and should be.

Terrorists, they are not and it's laughable and insulting to think I'm going to be swayed by the misuse of the word.

Tom.

virmilitaris

DeVore wrote: »

Im so sick of Terrorist being stuck on the end of everything in order to curry favour with people. it smacks of not having a solid point that will stand on it's own.

+1 Which is why I put the word inside apostrophes.

zenno

well i'd say pat rabbitte would say the same off air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usbB7RYbHLM

en.r4cart

sadly

mistermouse

Would be interesting to find out - given that historians have an agreed date of the 1916 rising, I wonder what exact date will the treason perprotrated in Ireland be giving in future years and will the current situation ever be seen as treason.

If it is treason is it still punishable

Liam Byrne

Better to have this government slaves to the IMF than have us as slaves to this government!

gandalf

Basically if these men have done wrong then they will be charged and after due process and if they are found guilty they will be punished accordingly. They should not be dealt with because some yank "journalist" who can only get work on a Russian network fires labels like terrorist around like a guest throwing confetti at a wedding.

If you jail Sean Fitzpatrick, Sean Quinn and the others who made mad bad decisions then we need to jail the regulators, the politicians, your neighbour because he voted for Fianna Fail for all his life and me because I bought a property in 2007. There is plenty of blame to spread around.

I saw a picture of one of the German newpapers yesterday and it showed an article about the demise of the Celtic Tiger with a lovely picture of a Leprechaun above the article. Our image has been tarnished badly abroad and we as a country can either pick ourselves up like a maturing nation and deal logically with the problems that brought us to this place so it doesn't happen again or we can continue to live up to our gombeen man stereotype and continue looking into the past and form a lynchmob like a good pack of Leprechauns with shillelaghs and find our scapegoats and put on a show for the tourists and the worlds media.

(btw I am not advocating letting people who did break the law away with it. I am saying that let due process take care of them and if they are found guilty throw the book at them as a lesson to others not to follow their path).

Cavehill Red

gandalf wrote: »

If you jail Sean Fitzpatrick, Sean Quinn and the others who made mad bad decisions then we need to jail the regulators, the politicians, your neighbour because he voted for Fianna Fail for all his life and me because I bought a property in 2007. There is plenty of blame to spread around.

Horse****.
The blame lies squarely with the bankers who committed fraud, fraud which will be uncovered in the next few days by IMF auditors (which is why many have already fled the country.)
The blame is shared by the morons of Fianna Fail who decided to bail out their fraudster banking pals in 2008, thereby making us liable for their debts.
They are the only people to blame for what's happening now. No one else.

feicim

gandalf wrote: »

... we as a nation can either pick ourselves up like a maturing nation and deal logically with the problems that brought us to this place so it doesn't happen again ...

The problem is the government is expecting people to just knuckle down and get on with it (which they will have to do) but the problem is its the same morons in power, who are refusing to hold anybody to account, who still have their snouts in the trough.

While the average citizen is really suffering, on the dole / pay cuts / can't afford mortgage these swine, in the case of the government carry on business as usual - fat salary - merc - perks the lot. The so called businessmen/bankers are fleeing with their assets to live in luxury abroad while we carry the can not only for our sins, we pick up the tab for their sins, which are a whole lot bigger than all our sins put together.

I can deal with the shít that is coming down the line, but I, like many others will have an axe to grind if nobody is punished for bringing the country into this state. I'm at the stage now where vigililantism is looking like the only way these scum will be called to account. I'll shed no tears if people start taking the law into their own hands. It would be a lesson for the ones that come after them. Otherwise, why should the ruling class change their behaviour?

If they are not punished this will happen again.

feicim

gandalf wrote: »

Basically if these men have done wrong then they will be charged and after due process and if they are found guilty they will be punished accordingly. ....

(btw I am not advocating letting people who did break the law away with it. I am saying that let due process take care of them and if they are found guilty throw the book at them as a lesson to others not to follow their path).

Due process my arsé. The law in this country is written (or not written as the case may be) by the scum who run this place. Plenty of loopholes and grey areas left in for their expensive legal teams to find.

The law will not come near these criminals. Bertie et al ran rings around the "law" in this country. The only way justice will be meted out will be if the citizens of Ireland take it into their own hands. The "Law" protects these creeps.

gandalf

feicim wrote: »

The problem is the government is expecting people to just knuckle down and get on with it (which they will have to do) but the problem is its the same morons in power, who are refusing to hold anybody to account, who still have their snouts in the trough.

Well the parties in Government can be held to account in the General Election and our duty as citizens is to ensure that those we vote in are given the clear message that they are overpaid and we expect them to address this. Maybe it is time for us all to get involved politically again. I did a while ago in my life and am considering doing so again if I find an organisation that fits my agenda. If I don't maybe I will look at setting one up with people who share my views.

While the average citizen is really suffering, on the dole / pay cuts / can't afford mortgage these swine, in the case of the government carry on business as usual - fat salary - merc - perks the lot. The so called businessmen/bankers are fleeing with their assets to live in luxury abroad while we carry the can not only for our sins, we pick up the tab for their sins, which are a whole lot bigger than all our sins put together.

As someone who is on the dole due to no doing of my own I can see where you are coming from. However you have to distinguish between people who made bad business decisions and those who deliberately went about to subvert the laws of the country. If you don't then you are subscribing to the Lynch mob mentality that our friend from Russia seems to be spouting on about.

I can deal with the shít that is coming down the line, but I, like many others will have an axe to grind if nobody is punished for bringing the country into this state. I'm at the stage now where vigililantism is looking like the only way these scum will be called to account. I'll shed no tears if people start taking the law into their own hands. It would be a lesson for the ones that come after them. Otherwise, why should the ruling class change their behaviour?

If they are not punished this will happen again.

If you resort to vigilantism and don't fix the problem that is underlying the whole situation then you are leaving it festering so it rears its ugly head again in 20 years time. If you deal with the underlying problem then you will be doing the country and its citizens a far better service than beating a few bankers down.

Again if the IMF find behaviour that is contrary to the laws of the land then these people will be dealt with eventually.

The Government will get its comeuppance at the next General Election, that's what democracy is all about.

Form that RT video.."And whats the irish government doing..."drinking heavily and hiding under their desks"

We're flavour of the month.
We'll be part flavour of the next few months if the EU doesn't sort the markets out with what they and the Imf do for Ireland.

professore

gandalf wrote: »

(btw I am not advocating letting people who did break the law away with it. I am saying that let due process take care of them and if they are found guilty throw the book at them as a lesson to others not to follow their path).

There's your problem ... "due process" is corrupted by the insiders since the likes of Drumm & Seanie Fitz know too much about the people supposed to administer due process. In the same way the tribunals have been wildly successful bringing the guilty to justice ... NOT !

feicim

gandalf wrote: »

Well the parties in Government can be held to account in the General Election.

Some members will, but 20% + of fianna fail will still be given a job by the irish citizens if polls are to be be believed. Many of the ones who won't get back in will receive pensions and drivers etc etc.

This doesn't go far enough imo.

gandalf wrote: »

Maybe it is time for us all to get involved politically again. I did a while ago in my life and am considering doing so again if I find an organisation that fits my agenda. If I don't maybe I will look at setting one up with people who share my views..

+1

gandalf wrote: »

As someone who is on the dole due to no doing of my own I can see where you are coming from. However you have to distinguish between people who made bad business decisions and those who deliberately went about to subvert the laws of the country. .

goverment + banks = fuelled bubble, they could have intervened at any stage over the last ten years to stop. instead of modifying the behaviouor of the banks and vested interests they encouraged reckless lending and borrowing - in spite of warnings and advice. This is their crime.

They deliberately and recklessly created a bubble and refused to admit that one day in would all go horribly wrong - despite obvious evidence to the contrary. This is criminal.

gandalf wrote: »

If you resort to vigilantism and don't fix the problem that is underlying the whole situation then you are leaving it festering so it rears its ugly head again in 20 years time. .

I don't see why you can't do both.:)

gandalf wrote: »

The Government will get its comeuppance at the next General Election, that's what democracy is all about.

Democracy seems to be about the elite shítting all over everybody and everything and then closing the door of their mansion to keep the stink out.

Will TD's and bankers be getting evicted from their homes and living in eternal poverty? I don't think so. Will thousands of ordinary men women and children. Yes. This is the price we pay, what price will they pay? This is the question that should be on peoples minds, for the unemployed to think about when they are queuing up to sign on, for the people in mortage arrears who suffer the constant worry and stress.

gandalf

professore wrote: »

There's your problem ... "due process" is corrupted by the insiders since the likes of Drumm & Seanie Fitz know too much about the people supposed to administer due process. In the same way the tribunals have been wildly successful bringing the guilty to justice ... NOT !

So what is your alternative? Send a hit team to Boston to "punish" Drumm?

feicim wrote: »

Some members will, but 20% + of fianna fail will still be given a job by the irish citizens if polls are to be be believed. Many of the ones who won't get back in will receive pensions and drivers etc etc.

This doesn't go far enough imo.

Firstly if 20% of the population want to vote for Fianna Fail it is their right no matter how distasteful and illogical it is to you and me.

I agree with regard to the pensions and perks that they receive and I expect that to be dealt with by the next Government.

goverment + banks = fuelled bubble, they could have intervened at any stage over the last ten years to stop. instead of modifying the behaviouor of the banks and vested interests they encouraged reckless lending and borrowing - in spite of warnings and advice. This is their crime.

They deliberately and recklessly created a bubble and refused to admit that one day in would all go horribly wrong - despite obvious evidence to the contrary. This is criminal.

The bubble would not have expanded if people did not buy into it. When you take out a mortgage you sign up responsibility to pay it back. I know of loads of people who got their employers to give them letters stating they were getting paid more than they actually were. They were blinded by stupidity. David Drumm and Sean Fitzpatrick were not standing behind them with a shotgun forcing them to sign up to a mortgage, they signed it themselves and they alone are responsible for it. Anything else is living in denial.

The Government failed in one of its major duties which is to protect the future prosperity of the country and the parties involved will pay the price at the next General Election. Again if you disagree with this then what is your logical alternative?

I don't see why you can't do both.:)

So you are advocating violence outside the law to fix this problem?

Democracy seems to be about the elite shítting all over everybody and everything and then closing the door of their mansion to keep the stink out.

No its that way in this country at the moment because the systems in place are flawed and need to be amended to stop this. We as the people have to help educate our political parties that this needs to be changed and if they don't listen we need to form our own party to clean house.

Will TD's and bankers be getting evicted from their homes and living in eternal poverty? I don't think so. Will thousands of ordinary men women and children. Yes. This is the price we pay, what price will they pay?

Firstly I am sure some will and are paying a heavy price from all sides of society. What do you want all TD's and bankers dressed in sackcloth paraded through the streets of the nation getting various root vegetables flung at them?

If people broke the law and it can be proven they will be punished. Politicians who failed us will be voted out.

Cavehill Red

gandalf wrote: »

So what is your alternative? Send a hit team to Boston to "punish" Drumm?

So you are advocating violence outside the law to fix this problem?

Firstly I am sure some will and are paying a heavy price from all sides of society. What do you want all TD's and bankers dressed in sackcloth paraded through the streets of the nation getting various root vegetables flung at them?

Some good brainstorming there. Nice to see people thinking outside the box for solutions.

gandalf

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Some good brainstorming there. Nice to see people thinking outside the box for solutions.

Oh believe me the sackcloth idea would make me very happy indeed if it came to fruition but after we have the joy of flinging a turnip at a banker or hurling a parsnip at a slack jawed politician we will still have our buggered economy and our "not fit for purpose" political system to sort out.

Cavehill Red

gandalf wrote: »

Oh believe me the sackcloth idea would make me very happy indeed if it came to fruition but after we have the joy of flinging a turnip at a banker or hurling a parsnip at a slack jawed politician we will still have our buggered economy and our "not fit for purpose" political system to sort out.

Indeed.
I keep saying it, and few enough are listening, but the singlemost important thing we can do right now is get the banks off our books and let them go bust.
That tens if not hundreds of billions of liability is way more important than bankers' heads on spikes, though of course I'd love to see bankers' heads on spikes too.

hinault

virmilitaris wrote: »

Hey everyone.

I just came across this video on youtube from Russia today.

Basically they say people like Sean Quinn and Sean Fitzpatrick are financial 'terrorists' and should be in prison or worse.

The guy in the video seems a bit 'loud' if you get my meaning but I'm honestly curious why the bankers and other people who have gotten us into this mess aren't in prison or worse ?

The words in your OP bear no relation to the title of the thread.

angelfalling

This guy has some good points. Calm and measured and he squarely lands the blame on the banks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzYkV8aOMpE&NR=1

Liam Byrne

gandalf wrote: »

When you take out a mortgage you sign up responsibility to pay it back.

Applies to all loans; unless it's a loan from Anglo.

When someone with justice in mind fixes that issue THEN you can lecture to us about our responsibilities re contracts that we willingly signed.

When we signed and agreed that we'd pay OUR loans back we didn't know that we'd also be footing the bill for other peoples' loans.

Nodin

gandalf wrote: »

....................

The bubble would not have expanded if people did not buy into it. When you take out a mortgage you sign up responsibility to pay it back. I know of loads of people who got their employers to give them letters stating they were getting paid more than they actually were. They were blinded by stupidity. David Drumm and Sean Fitzpatrick were not standing behind them with a shotgun forcing them to sign up to a mortgage, they signed it themselves and they alone are responsible for it. Anything else is living in denial.

............

The biggest single source of trouble is Anglo. Anglo lent to, and dealt with, almost exclusively large business. It ended with most of its loans devoted to construction and property. Its a fact that certain persons involved with Anglo were also on the board on the Dublin Docklands authority, which - for reasons I can't understand - wasn't proscribed under any 'conflict of interest' clause. The notion that the average invidual is directly responsible for the current crisis is therefore rather flawed.

gandalf

Nodin wrote: »

The biggest single source of trouble is Anglo. Anglo lent to, and dealt with, almost exclusively large business. It ended with most of its loans devoted to construction and property. Its a fact that certain persons involved with Anglo were also on the board on the Dublin Docklands authority, which - for reasons I can't understand - wasn't proscribed under any 'conflict of interest' clause. The notion that the average invidual is directly responsible for the current crisis is therefore rather flawed.

No not essentially, Anglo as I have stated on numerous threads in this forum already should have been allowed to fold as it was a specialist bank but our Government in their "wisdom" didn't allow that to happen.

There were numerous cases of wrongdoing in the way they transacted business and hopefully those can be proven in a court of law to have been illegal and those responsible are seen to be punished.

But it is not just Anglo that are the problem. Other banks engaged in the reckless pursuit of business and loaned to people and businesses who should never have been given loans especially if those people were inflating their own earnings with statements of falsehoods from their employers. Others looked at what the maximum they could borrow with their earnings not factoring in that there may be trouble ahead and if they had any leeway if they had a paycut or lost their jobs. Those people cannot now turn around and say that they are not partially responsible for the mess they and we are in because they assumed every thing would remain as it was.

There are plenty of other players who bear responsibility but until we collectively (I bet Liam hates me using the "we" word) as a country realise that we have to take responsibility and try and move forward from this very serious position we will have learnt nothing at all. We do need to ensure that we change a lot of things to ensure this doesn't happen again with our political system, our regulators, the way banks transact business and our own attitudes to debt and responsibility.

Laminations

gandalf, please check out this thread I started to assess the proposition that we all went property mad.

On page 2 ei.sdraob provided figures to show the 'property madness' part but it doesn't show how many individuals were involved. Home ownership and mortgage uptake didnt change between 1991 and 2006. The buy-to-let market went bananas but it could easily have been driven (and I indeed maintain that it was) by a relatively low number of wealthy (and greedy) individuals - like Frank 40 homes Fahey.

You need to provide more proof that we all went property mad other than just quoting sums of money spent. This is off-topic but I'd appreciate you coming to the other thread to debate it.

Einhard

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Horse****.
The blame is shared by the morons of Fianna Fail who decided to bail out their fraudster banking pals in 2008, thereby making us liable for their debts.
They are the only people to blame for what's happening now. No one else.

That might be true if we lived in a dictatorship with absolutely no say in how we were governed, but we live in a democracy, and we not only chose the people who rule us, but we, to a great extent, informed their policies. I'm not talking about the bailout or NAMA in this regard, but the atrocious decisions made by the 2nd Ahern administration. They sought to buy the electorate off with bribes, and we (in a general sense) allowed ourselves to be bribed. If one lives in a democracy, and one gets not alone to choose one's leaders, but to inform their decision making, then one has to take some responsibility for those decisions, and their consequences. Not all, or even the majority of it, but some at least. otherwise nothing at all will change. One of the major reasons we have been brought to this current desperate juncture is because we endorsed, indeed demanded, the irresponsible policies of FF, and rewarded the party electorally for decisions which, even at the time, were widely acknowledged as madness. We have to acknowledge that, our collective responsibility, and if we don't, there's nothing to stop this repeating itself again and again and again.

gandalf

Laminations wrote: »

gandalf, please check out this thread I started to assess the proposition that we all went property mad.

Yes I saw that thread and I am not saying everyone went property mad I am saying that enough people over extended themselves that we now find ourselves collectively in cesspit that we are in. I am also aware of people buying new cars that they couldn't afford going on three holidays a year when they had huge credit card debt (and I am talking about a mid five figure sum). Property was just one of the way SOME of the General Public in the country lost the run of themselves. This of course is on top of the Developers and others in business who lost their business sense.

Laminations

Einhard wrote: »

That might be true if we lived in a dictatorship with absolutely no say in how we were governed, but we live in a democracy, and we not only chose the people who rule us, but we, to a great extent, informed their policies. I'm not talking about the bailout or NAMA in this regard, but the atrocious decisions made by the 2nd Ahern administration. They sought to buy the electorate off with bribes, and we (in a general sense) allowed ourselves to be bribed.

Not fully accurate. They chose to buy people off ith lies also, about a soft landing, about our fundamentals being sound etc. Now while most people in 2007 could smell BS (remember only 40 odd % voted FF), everyone has a different threshold for BS. FF can no longer bluff, the threshold for BS has been reached now in most people, its only 18% who remain holding their noses

Einhard

Laminations wrote: »

Not fully accurate. They chose to buy people off ith lies also, about a soft landing, about our fundamentals being sound etc. Now while most people in 2007 could smell BS (remember only 40 odd % voted FF), everyone has a different threshold for BS. FF can no longer bluff, the threshold for BS has been reached now in most people, its only 18% who remain holding their noses

It is fully accurate. We live in a decmocracy do we not? And it's true to state that the various political parties tailored their messages to what they felt the electorate wanted in 2002 and 2007. It's no coincidence that the manifestos of the big three parties were, for all intents and purposes, identical in 2007. AFAIK, there were no FG or Labour proposals to limit the flow of credit by, perhaps, capping mortgages; there were no proposals to seriously address inefficencies in the PS; no proposals to look at the system of public/private partnership; and certainly no proposals to reform our over generous entitlement programmes. Instead, we got more of the same. It was all about what we would get from the government; each partyu competing to outdo the other in the generosity stakes. Barely a mention of the need for sound administration, of the importance of prudent governance with a view to long term stability. Not a bit of it. And the reason was because the parties knew that the best way to get elected in Ireland was to promise the world. That's how it's always been in this country, and FF in particular have been adept in exploting it. And it always will be the way in this country unless we acknowledge that we bear some collective responsibility for the situation we find ourselves. Deluding ourselves that we are all innocent victims of financial perfidy might be amotionally satisfying, but it's still a delusion, and a dangerous one at that.

Laminations

I of course acknowledge that we bear some collective responsibility - it is our country afterall. But there is a lions share of responbility here. People who underperformed in their task of managing the economy or managing their banks or regulating these banks need to be punished. Investors are staying away partly because of our unshaken image as a crony capitalist, no accountability, country.

I'm not and rarely if ever have blamed 2007 FF voters, its the remaining supporters that are the focus of my anger and ridicule.

politicsdude

DeVore wrote: »

Im so sick of Terrorist being stuck on the end of everything in order to curry favour with people. it smacks of not having a solid point that will stand on it's own.

If they have committed crime, then they are criminals and should be punished. IMHO they are and should be.

Terrorists, they are not and it's laughable and insulting to think I'm going to be swayed by the misuse of the word.

Tom.

i hear ya .... terrorists has become a buzz word

Einhard

Laminations wrote: »

I of course acknowledge that we bear some collective responsibility - it is our country afterall. But there is a lions share of responbility here. People who underperformed in their task of managing the economy or managing their banks or regulating these banks need to be punished. Investors are staying away partly because of our unshaken image as a crony capitalist, no accountability, country.

I'm not and rarely if ever have blamed 2007 FF voters, its the remaining supporters that are the focus of my anger and ridicule.

One of the reasons there was such lax regulation of the banking sector, and particularly of the mortgage business, was because to interfere in the "right" of an Irish person to own their own home, would have been political suicide. Can you imagine how the country would have reacted had FG stated in 2002 that they were going to abolish 100% mortgages, or impose a strict earnings to loan ratio on borrowers? They would have been wiped out. It's not just FF supporters either. It's the country as a whole (obviously I'm generalising here). When it comes to politics we're just not a very mature people, and tend to value the local over the national, and short term personal gain, over long term general stability and prosperity. People talk about FF being in hock to big business, and the Galway tent etc, but in reality that FF are all about gaining and holding power, and are thus in hock to nobody more than the electorate. It wasn't corruption or cronyism that got us to this position, but good old fashioned electoral bribery. FG and Labour tried it too of course; luckily for them however, FF were better at it.

P. Breathnach

Einhard wrote: »

... Can you imagine how the country would have reacted had FG stated in 2002 that they were going to abolish 100% mortgages, or impose a strict earnings to loan ratio on borrowers? They would have been wiped out....

I think that is true. And the terrible thing underlying that truth is that if every aspiring purchaser had been subjected to such a set of rules, they would all have been handicapped to approximately the same extent, so nobody would have lost out greatly on the wish to acquire a home.

zenno

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peX4dBEF0Vg

Scofflaw

In case the message has been insufficiently clear, posts like the one above do not belong in Politics. If you post a video only post you will be banned for at least a week.

moderately,
Scofflaw

yoshytoshy

That guy is laughable in the op's link ,he actually looks like he's on cocaine or something.
Mentioning the IRA and terrorism along with Sean Quinn ,what a tool.