Outstanding finance on a purchased vehicle

Jamm3r

I bought a used car from what I deemed a reputable SIMI registered dealership a couple of months ago and I have since received a letter from a bank stating that the car belongs to them as there is money outstanding on the car and they will be looking for return of their asset.

I have since contacted the bank, I explained to their rep that I bought the car in good faith from a dealer, he explained dealership did not have the right to pass title. He then advised my best course of action would be to seek a refund or a replacement vehicle from the dealership as I wouldn't be able to sell it on later (I found this strange as I thought it would be the least of my worries).

I've been into the dealer to speak with them and shown them the letter, they said they would speak to the bank and get back to me. The car is still under a six month guarantee with them, but it's possible I might have problems getting a refund or replacement from them if I ask and if at all possible I would rather hold onto the vehicle as it was the exact spec I was looking for (minus the HPI). I will rescind and look for a refund if this is the absolute right course of action but want to see if I have a leg to stand on.

I'm wondering what is my best course of action here and what rights do I have.

coylemj

First you need to check to see if he really is a member of the SIMI...

http://www.simi.ie/memberSearch.aspx

The least you would expect from a SIMI member is that he would check the car's history to make sure it hadn't been written off and that there was no outstanding finance on it.

There is a form you can fill out on the SIMI website to complain about a member..

http://www.simi.ie/consumer_information/contact_complaints_service.aspx

If he is not a member of the SIMI then you would probably have to resort to sending him a solicitor's letter, you may also have to consider paying off the bank and pursuing the dealer for the money because the bank will be within their rights to come and seize the vehicle at which stage they could flog it for a song and send you a cheque for 100 euros, that being the excess of what the car went for at auction minus the outstanding finance.

Jamm3r

He is a SIMI member and a manafacturer affiliated dealer, this is one of the reasons I naievely went through with the sale on good faith. The finance owed is more than the cars worth which is in the region of 10k euro, I have managed to find out that much.

threebeards

All SIMI dealers are obliged to carry out a HPI check in order to ascertain if any finance exists on a vehicle prior to sale. In the event that finance remains, the dealer must settle that balance prior to sale. In other words, the finance company owns the asset and the asset isn't the property of the dealer (and by definition anyone they sell it to) until any existing finance is cleared.

The dealer is absolutely the one in the wrong here. They MUST follow through and clear the finance in retrospect. Make sure you stick to your guns with this. Tell the dealer you'll take it further unless they clear the outstanding finance.

coylemj

Jamm3r wrote: »

He is a SIMI member and a manafacturer affiliated dealer

Well then you have two sticks with which to beat him, the importer who controls the franchise that he has have a vested interest in making sure that their dealers have a good reputation - it doesn't matter by the way whether your car is the same brand, if he sells dodgy vehicles it reflects badly on the franchise that he holds and the Irish distributor won't put up with that carry on.

Stick a complaint on the SMI website and write a letter to the Irish distributor for the brand of car for which he has a franchise, that should get things moving. Even if he doesn't care about being a member of the SIMI, you can be sure that he wants to remain a franchise dealer, otherwise if he loses his franchise he drops down to being an independent dealer which puts him in the same league as the **** dodgy characters who sell cars from prefabs.

threebeards

coylemj wrote: »

Well then you have two sticks with which to beat him, the importer who controls the franchise that he has have a vested interest in making sure that their dealers have a good reputation - it doesn't mater by the way whether your car is the same brand.

Stick a complaint on the SMI website and write a letter to the distributor for that brand, that should get things moving. Even if he doesn't care about being a member of the SIMI, you can be sure that he wants to remain a franchise dealer, otherwise if he loses his franchise he drops down to being an independent dealer which puts him in the same league as the **** dodgy characters who sell cars from prefabs.

I wouldn't go to those lengths just yet. I'd by all means threaten it but I think the easiest and cleanest way to get it sorted is to have it out with the dealer first of all and if you're not getting any joy then resort to what coylemj is suggesting.

OP, if the dealer tells you they have the finance cleared, PM me and I'll get a HPI check run for you

coylemj

threebeards wrote: »

I wouldn't go to those lengths just yet.

He sold her a car with more finance outstanding than the car was worth, why should she tread softly? He deserves to get his ass kicked from all angles, otherwise he'll pull the same stunt with someone else.

Nothing will get him moving faster than a phone call from the distributor telling him that they are not impressed with his carry on and that he better sort it out fast.

threebeards

coylemj wrote: »

He sold her a car with more finance outstanding than the car was worth, why should she tread softly? He deserves to get his ass kicked from all angles, otherwise he'll pull the same stunt with someone else.

Nothing will get him moving faster than a phone call from the distributor telling him that they are not impressed with his carry on and that he better sort it out fast.

I have no interest in getting into a slagging match with a third party when everybody is on the same side. I still stand over the belief that the cleanest way of dealing with this is to THREATEN the dealer with contacting the distributor - by the time the OP actually manages to make contact with a relevant person in the distributors he/she would imho have the money back.

dermot_sheehan

coylemj wrote: »

He sold her a car with more finance outstanding than the car was worth, why should she tread softly? He deserves to get his ass kicked from all angles, otherwise he'll pull the same stunt with someone else.

Nothing will get him moving faster than a phone call from the distributor telling him that they are not impressed with his carry on and that he better sort it out fast.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1960/en/act/pub/0015/sec0028.html#zza15y1960s28

the word "hirer" means the person who takes or has taken goods from an owner under a hire-purchase agreement and includes a person to whom the hirer's rights or liabilities under the agreement have passed by assignment or by operation of law;

28.—Where the hirer of goods of any class or description is a dealer in goods of that class or description and sells the goods of which he is the hirer when ostensibly acting in the ordinary course of his business as such dealer, the sale shall be as valid as if he were expressly authorised by the owner to make the sale, provided that the buyer acts in good faith and has not at the time of the sale notice that the hirer has not authority to make the sale.

coylemj

I can't see that applying in this case, the 'hirer' was the person who took out the original finance and they had no legal right to sell on the vehicle so the dealer would not be rightfully described as a person to whom the hirer's rights or liabilities under the agreement have passed by assignment or by operation of law for the simple reason that the hirer had no right to pass the vehicle on in the first place so 'by assignment' or 'by operation of law' would not apply.

Jamm3r

Coyle fyi I'm male.

gabhain7 wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1960/en/act/pub/0015/sec0028.html#zza15y1960s28

Thanks and could you explain that to me in laymans terms please, I'm not very good at reading legal jargon (I'm gonna assume this means the buyer bears a burden of debt imposed by ownership or something along those lines).

He's probably right though, I have no idea who the debtor is but it's definitely not the dealer I purchased it from.

Victor

coylemj wrote: »

He sold her a car with more finance outstanding than the car was worth, why should she tread softly?

"Tread softly, carry big stick" comes to mind.

The big stick being letters addressed (but not yet sent) to the the SIMI, the manufacturer / distributor and the National Consumer Agency.

coylemj

Jamm3r wrote: »

Thanks and could you explain that to me in laymans terms please, I'm not very good at reading legal jargon

I think he's looking for clarification on the legal post by gabhain7

Jamm3r

Victor wrote: »

"Tread softly, carry big stick" comes to mind.

I love that quote and very apt, I have been advised by a few people to charge in with all guns blazing but I'm more of a charm offensive kind of person. If I look like losing the car I will certainly pull out all the stops and things might get heated. It looks like I have some grounds for ownership as a bonafide purchase in good faith according to the legal advice I received earlier.

coylemj wrote: »

I think he's looking for clarification on the legal post by gabhain7

If it's within the boundaries of this forum I'd appreciate it yes.

Also dealer left a message earlier and has advised me that his legal team are dealing with the bank and they are sure the bank have no rights to take the vehicle, hopefully this is true.

coylemj

Jamm3r wrote: »

Also dealer left a message earlier and has advised me that his legal team are dealing with the bank and they are sure the bank have no rights to take the vehicle, hopefully this is true.

That sounds like like a smokescreen - what is the dealer's answer to the charge that he sold you a car with outstanding finance on it and what is his response to your threat to report him to the SIMI and/or his franchise distributor?

It sounds like the dealer is making out that the bank is the baddie in this case, this is a classic case of trying to shift the the blame onto someone else, do not fall for this trick.

GerardKeating

coylemj wrote: »

That sounds like like a smokescreen - what is the dealer's answer to the charge that he sold you a car with outstanding finance on it and what is his response to your threat to report him to the SIMI and/or his franchise distributor?

It sounds like the dealer is making out that the bank is the baddie in this case, this is a classic case of trying to shift the the blame onto someone else, do not fall for this trick.

Maybe the bank is the Baddie, maybe the dealer did a proper HPI check and the car came back clean due to an error with the bank, why assume the dealer is in the wrong, it could be the bank.

dermot_sheehan

Jamm3r wrote: »

Coyle fyi I'm male.




Thanks and could you explain that to me in laymans terms please, I'm not very good at reading legal jargon (I'm gonna assume this means the buyer bears a burden of debt imposed by ownership or something along those lines).

He's probably right though, I have no idea who the debtor is but it's definitely not the dealer I purchased it from.

Depending on how the dealer acquired the car, you may have a defence to the HP company seeking to repossess the car, under the hire purchase act.

In any case you have a claim against the dealer and can seek to have the sale of the car rescinded as s. 12 of the Sale of Goods Act 1893 provides that Good title to the product being sold is a condition of sale:

(1) In every contract of sale, other than one to which subsection (2) applies, there is—
( a ) an implied condition on the part of the seller that, in the case of a sale, he has a right to sell the goods and, in the case of an agreement to sell, he will have a right to sell the goods at the time when the property is to pass, and
( b ) an implied warranty that the goods are free, and will remain free until the time when the property is to pass, from any charge or encumbrance not disclosed to the buyer before the contract is made and that the buyer will enjoy quiet possession of the goods except so far as it may be disturbed by the owner or other person entitled to the benefit of any charge or encumbrance so disclosed.

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OP I honestly think you taking a softly softly approach with the dealer is the wrong approach. I have worked in motor finance with garages for years and they should not have sold you a car with outstanding finance. It is their responsibility to ensure it had been cleared. They are fobbing you off. I would bring the car back to the garage and demand a refund NOW. Forget about SIMI it means nothing, the garage pay a membership fee and the SIMI will not get involved. Is it really a main dealer ?
If they refuse the refund contact your solicitor ASAP.

Jamm3r

gabhain7 wrote: »

Depending on how the dealer ...

TYVM Gabhain.

Seems I have a bit of room to maneuver I'll keep posted if anything happens/I decide to seek refund. Would rather not be looking for a new car I do 800km a week.

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Jamm3r wrote: »

TYVM Gabhain.

Seems I have a bit of room to maneuver I'll keep posted if anything happens/I decide to seek refund. Would rather not be looking for a new car I do 800km a week.

Bear In mind under a hire purchase agreement title remains with the bank until the final payment is made. No title passes until then so I don't see how the dealer can argue the bank have no right to the car, unless full payment was made to them they never released the title.

Jamm3r

Yeh I figure people are correct in saying that he's likely fobbing me off, I have til the end of the week to respond to the bank as per their letter. So I'll contact them and get an update on Friday, if nothing looks like moving I'll be seeking a refund and then taking action against the dealer if I don't get.

I just need to sleep on these things make sure I make the right moves, I have obviously made the wrong ones up til now

Jamm3r

Thanks for the advice, dealer reversed the sale before Christmas and I was given a full refund. Turns out he didn't know about the HPI and the guy who sold it to him (his friend) wasn't aware either. Shame I really liked the car.

Delancey

Good to hear the issue was resolved - I cannot believe though that the dealers ' friend ' didn't know he still owed finance on it.

Jamm3r

Actually he acquired it from a large dealers in Wicklow who have since closed down and done a runner. I reckon he thought he was getting a bargain and got stung, met him when I handed the car over & he seemed very genuine.