Speeding, camera and a letter

nacho66

Hi guys

I recently received a letter from Garda, with a speeding camera photograph and a call to pay a ticket. Now, I have few questions regarding this

1) I found a letter in my mailbox, which means, postman simply put it there, without taking my signature. I wonder, how can one urge me to pay a fee withing a certain amount of time if there's no prove (other than my verbal confirmation) that the letter reached me? What if the postman brought it to the wrong mailbox (we have 3 blocks in our building, each has a mailbox for the same apartment number as mine) or If I was on a 2 months holiday/hospital stay or whatever. What is a legal approach to such correspondence?

2) The photograph itself is a bit of a joke. Only thing on it is cropped image of the license plate. Even if the numbers on it match my car there's no certainty it is my car, is it? Why isn't the whole car on the picture so I can identify it? I also cannot see if there's another car in the frame, cause if it is, the photograph cannot be a ground for a ticket (it cannot be proved that speed measured was actually mine if there were more vehicles in camera sight)

I'm not trying to trick anyone and let myself go without paying the ticket... But I know how strict can law be, and I mean both sides, in other European countries. I just wonder about the legal approach to all this. By sending a letter, delivering it without my signature and showing me only the license plates Garda doesn't provide 100% prove that I got the letter or, If I did, that it's my car on the photo

What do you think?

Irish_polizei

nacho66 wrote: »

Hi guys

I'm not trying to trick anyone and let myself go without paying the ticket...

Legal advice isnt given on emergency services forum to the best of my knowledge , if i were you id take this to legal issues forum, just search for it on here. Were it can be "discussed there

gaz wac

nacho66 wrote: »

Even if the numbers on it match my car there's no certainty it is my car, is it? Why isn't the whole car on the picture so I can identify it?
What do you think?

I think your thread should be in You Laugh You Lose !!

nacho66

To the admins - can we move this thread to Legal Discussion? I don't want to duplicate threads

Thanks

nacho66

gaz wac wrote: »

I think your thread should be in You Laugh You Lose !!

Like I said, it's only theoretical discussion. I know it's my car, but not based on the Garda letter.. I simply remember driving in that spot, at the time provided by Garda and I 'assume' it's my car based on very high probability. It's only theory that confronts the legal actions... after all, plates can be stolen, no matter how funny for some it may sound. Based on what (and how) I got from Garda, they haven't proved in 100% percent it was me. Don't you agree with that?

source

Legal discussion don't do legal advice either.

The full image, as far as I'm aware is available as evidence if required in court. The image you're sent is just the reg plate to cut down on the amount of trees we need to send you in the post. Also if they put the full image in a small picture you'd be saying you cannot accurately see the registration plate.

As for the delivery method, normal post is sufficient, this has been proven in court.

If you weren't driving the car at that place and at that time it is your responsibility to inform the authorities of the correct driver so the fine can be issued in their name.

nacho66

Don't you think it's a bit unfair? I mean, without the knowledge if it's indeed your car on the picture or if it was the only car in the frame, the only way to finding out if your fine is just it to go to court? Shouldn't it be that I can see the photo and then go to court if I have problem with what's on it? I should be able to say in court 'it's not my car' or 'there's another car in the frame, please prove that the radar caught my speed, not his'. Not 'please show me the full picture so I know I made an idiot of myself coming here'

I also wonder how one can prove in court that the post is sufficient. I mean, it can be proved that I received the letter, no doubt. But how to prove it's sufficient? If I don't know I was caught by camera (which usually is the case with all of drivers) and I leave my home for any reason for more than a month, then it proves it was not sufficient, doesn't it?

Point is... if I can see the photo with my car and no other vehicle on it, with clear license plate number (which in rest of europe is done by placing cropped plate image in the corner of the main image), the date, the time and the place... then it's clear it's me or person I know (unless the car was stolen, but that's a different thing) and I have no grounds for going to court or even talking to Garda. But the current method only confirms the time, place and speed, nothing more

source

nacho66 wrote: »

Don't you think it's a bit unfair? I mean, without the knowledge if it's indeed your car on the picture or if it was the only car in the frame, the only way to finding out if your fine is just it to go to court? Shouldn't it be that I can see the photo and then go to court if I have problem with what's on it? I should be able to say in court 'it's not my car' or 'there's another car in the frame, please prove that the radar caught my speed, not his'. Not 'please show me the full picture so I know I made an idiot of myself coming here'

I also wonder how one can prove in court that the post is sufficient. I mean, it can be proved that I received the letter, no doubt. But how to prove it's sufficient? If I don't know I was caught by camera (which usually is the case with all of drivers) and I leave my home for any reason for more than a month, then it proves it was not sufficient, doesn't it?

Point is... if I can see the photo with my car and no other vehicle on it, with clear license plate number (which in rest of europe is done by placing cropped plate image in the corner of the main image), the date, the time and the place... then it's clear it's me or person I know (unless the car was stolen, but that's a different thing) and I have no grounds for going to court or even talking to Garda. But the current method only confirms the time, place and speed, nothing more

By sufficient, I mean that judges are satisfied that this method of delivery for a fine is a proper and correct method of delivery in accordance with the legislation. If you have an issue with the fine you don't have to pay it, and you can go to court and argue your point if you so wish.

I'm not going to comment on what happens in the rest of Europe as I have never experienced that. Yes that does sound like a good idea. however for whatever reason the decision was taken not to do it like that in this country. I'm not Garda management and I don't work in the Dept of Justice so I don't know why the decision was made to present the fine in this manner.

If you had lent your car to someone who was then photographed speeding, it is your duty to inform the fines office by calling the locall number on the fine and informing them otherwise you will receive the points.

nacho66

The only thing I could argue in court is the legislation itself. No point arguing about that I only see plates and then making idiot off myself when they show the full picture, probably even with my face behind the wheel on it

In my opinion it's very unfair approach. I should be presented the photograph proving it's my car, simple as that. And only then, based on what I see on the photograph, I would be able to make decision - pay or go to court

PS: I know about informing Garda if it wasn't me driving

da__flash

nacho66 wrote: »

The only thing I could argue in court is the legislation itself. No point arguing about that I only see plates and then making idiot off myself when they show the full picture, probably even with my face behind the wheel on it

In my opinion it's very unfair approach. I should be presented the photograph proving it's my car, simple as that. And only then, based on what I see on the photograph, I would be able to make decision - pay or go to court

PS: I know about informing Garda if it wasn't me driving

right theres 3 questions you need to ask yourself to get an answer, Where you driving the car? (ii) where you speeding (iii) did u recieve the ticket? if you have answered these 3 yes then just pay the ticket make life a little easier then taking up court time in an already over crowded court system for a triaval matter.

Corcioch

nacho66 wrote: »

Don't you think it's a bit unfair? I mean, without the knowledge if it's indeed your car on the picture or if it was the only car in the frame, the only way to finding out if your fine is just it to go to court? Shouldn't it be that I can see the photo and then go to court if I have problem with what's on it? I should be able to say in court 'it's not my car' or 'there's another car in the frame, please prove that the radar caught my speed, not his'. Not 'please show me the full picture so I know I made an idiot of myself coming here'

I also wonder how one can prove in court that the post is sufficient. I mean, it can be proved that I received the letter, no doubt. But how to prove it's sufficient? If I don't know I was caught by camera (which usually is the case with all of drivers) and I leave my home for any reason for more than a month, then it proves it was not sufficient, doesn't it?

Point is... if I can see the photo with my car and no other vehicle on it, with clear license plate number (which in rest of europe is done by placing cropped plate image in the corner of the main image), the date, the time and the place... then it's clear it's me or person I know (unless the car was stolen, but that's a different thing) and I have no grounds for going to court or even talking to Garda. But the current method only confirms the time, place and speed, nothing more

First of all its not a radar . . . ..its a laser, there is a huge difference.

There is a presumption under law that the letter was served. . . . .and guess what . . .it was.

If you wish to proceed with any of these "ideas" of yours best bet os talk to a solicitor.


. .are you just looking for points to whinge about because you got caught?????

source

nacho66 wrote: »

The only thing I could argue in court is the legislation itself. No point arguing about that I only see plates and then making idiot off myself when they show the full picture, probably even with my face behind the wheel on it

In my opinion it's very unfair approach. I should be presented the photograph proving it's my car, simple as that. And only then, based on what I see on the photograph, I would be able to make decision - pay or go to court

PS: I know about informing Garda if it wasn't me driving

If you think the system is unfair, and you don't want to be embarrassed in court then don't speed. You'll no longer have to put up with the unfair system and you won't have to go to court.

J K

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/judge-closes-loophole-used-to-avoid-speeding-penalty-points-1824424.html

cushtac

If you have a genuine concern that the car in the picture is not yours ring the number on the letter & tell them. The fines office can see the entire picture taken by the gatso; if the make, model & colour don't match what's on record for your car they'll cancel it.

nacho66

Guys, I don't want you to misunderstand me... I'm not 'crying', trying to cheat the authorities or anything. I was driving, I was speeding and I will pay the ticket without contacting either garda, solicitors or court. But I'm discussing the process here as some day someone could have a valid objections (or could be on vacation and wouldn't collect the letter, which equals increasing the fine). In my opinion the system with unsigned letter delivery and cropped license plate is not strict enough. All i wanted is to know what you think about, not to hear stuff 'like stop whining, stop speeding or you did it, go pay for it'.

My questions were only to get information on how this works exactly in Ireland. I'm not an Irish and I have been living and driving in different country for most of my life. This was the first ticket I got since I moved here and it simply struck me how the process here looks. In Poland, where I come from, every such letter must be signed by the recipient on collection. If recipient doesn't take it, mail returns to Police as rejected. Then Police can take further actions. So there's never a doubt if the letter was lost, ignored or couldn't be collected due to eg. absence of the recipient. And I guess there's no loophole, as described in the article, to close.

Also, on the photograph, the main image shows a whole car with plates. Additionally plate itself is cropped, zoomed in and placed in the corner of the main photo. So even If I drive a lot and may even don't remember being in a spot I was caught, photograph makes it very clear and does not leave any space for legal actions on my part.
At the same time however, if I notice the car is different (yes I know, this is most unlikely event - but not impossible) or if there's another vehicle in the frame (which actually disqualifies a picture in the first place and should not be sent out at all), I can take it to court.

Really guys, It's just a discussion, no reason to take a negative approach

cushtac

nacho66 wrote: »

At the same time however, if I notice the car is different (yes I know, this is most unlikely event - but not impossible) or if there's another vehicle in the frame (which actually disqualifies a picture in the first place and should not be sent out at all), I can take it to court.

As I've said, if you've doubts about the car in the picture ring the fines office. If you're correct the fine is cancelled, simple.

mr cowen

cushtac wrote: »

As I've said, if you've doubts about the car in the picture ring the fines office. If you're correct the fine is cancelled, simple.

did you not read the OP's previous post, they are not disputing the FPN they a merely disputing the delivery system in which in my eyes is flawed, and the European way seem alot more fairer. but we here in ireland always insist on reinventing the wheel.

cushtac

mr cowen wrote: »

did you not read the OP's previous post, they are not disputing the FPN they a merely disputing the delivery system in which in my eyes is flawed, and the European way seem alot more fairer. but we here in ireland always insist on reinventing the wheel.

I never said he was. The OP was bemoaning the lack of a bigger picture on the notice and claiming it wasn't fair; I'm pointing out how it's not an issue.

Corcioch

nacho66 wrote: »

Guys, I don't want you to misunderstand me... I'm not 'crying', trying to cheat the authorities or anything. I was driving, I was speeding and I will pay the ticket without contacting either garda, solicitors or court. But I'm discussing the process here as some day someone could have a valid objections (or could be on vacation and wouldn't collect the letter, which equals increasing the fine). In my opinion the system with unsigned letter delivery and cropped license plate is not strict enough. All i wanted is to know what you think about, not to hear stuff 'like stop whining, stop speeding or you did it, go pay for it'.

My questions were only to get information on how this works exactly in Ireland. I'm not an Irish and I have been living and driving in different country for most of my life. This was the first ticket I got since I moved here and it simply struck me how the process here looks. In Poland, where I come from, every such letter must be signed by the recipient on collection. If recipient doesn't take it, mail returns to Police as rejected. Then Police can take further actions. So there's never a doubt if the letter was lost, ignored or couldn't be collected due to eg. absence of the recipient. And I guess there's no loophole, as described in the article, to close.

Also, on the photograph, the main image shows a whole car with plates. Additionally plate itself is cropped, zoomed in and placed in the corner of the main photo. So even If I drive a lot and may even don't remember being in a spot I was caught, photograph makes it very clear and does not leave any space for legal actions on my part.
At the same time however, if I notice the car is different (yes I know, this is most unlikely event - but not impossible) or if there's another vehicle in the frame (which actually disqualifies a picture in the first place and should not be sent out at all), I can take it to court.

Really guys, It's just a discussion, no reason to take a negative approach

What case law, statute, act etc are you referring to there??

That rules that the picture is "disqualified"??

Shield

You are far better off taking this to Legal Discussion in this case. That's the correct forum for you to discuss legal stuff.

Thread closed.

nacho66 wrote: »

Guys... I'm discussing the process here...

Really guys, It's just a discussion...