King's Inns

Victor

How come it isn't Queen's Inns at the moment?

If they are willing to make that break, why not call themselves something completely different?

Victor

Victor wrote: »

How come it isn't Queen's Inns at the moment?

If they are willing to make that break, why not call themselves something completely different?

It isn't named for the current monarch, it's named for the patron of the Honorable Society King Henry VIII who donated the land where the current Four Courts stand after he seized it from the Dominican Monastery that was there prior to that.

Victor

then why was it once known as Queen's Inns?

Jo King

Victor wrote: »

How come it isn't Queen's Inns at the moment?

If they are willing to make that break, why not call themselves something completely different?

It was only half built when that drawing was made. The part marked Law Library is where the Registry of Deeds now stands. Obviously it couldn't take the male version until the job was done.

johnnyskeleton

Victor wrote: »

then why was it once known as Queen's Inns?

Where did that map come from?

I suppose more pressing issues are why is 20th century fox not called 21st century fox, and why is the empire state building called the empire state building since at no time during its history was new york part of an empire (other than noam chompsky style rhetoric).

Victor

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Where did that map come from?

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,715064,735044,7 clock on the "Historic 6' B&W" ont eh right

I suppose more pressing issues are why is 20th century fox not called 21st century fox

Because they decided to keep that name. And someone else owned http://www.twentyfirstcenturyfox.com/

and why is the empire state building called the empire state building since at no time during its history was new york part of an empire (other than noam chompsky style rhetoric).

Was it not part of the British Empire? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_British_Empire.png

"Empire State"

johnnyskeleton

Victor wrote: »

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,715064,735044,7 clock on the "Historic 6' B&W" ont eh right

Hmmm. I dunno. Contact the Inns themselves or the ordinance survey people. Do you know when the Historic 6' picture was made?

Victor wrote: »

Because they decided to keep that name. And someone else owned http://www.twentyfirstcenturyfox.com/

The point being that a name is not invalidated if it retains a historic reference.

Victor wrote: »

Was it not part of the British Empire? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_British_Empire.png

"Empire State"

But the building was made after they had left the empire, so why did they include a reference to an anacronistic empire that was of no relevance to the New York of the day?

johnnyskeleton

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

But the building was made after they had left the empire, so why did they include a reference to an anacronistic empire that was of no relevance to the New York of the day?

New Jersey: The Garden State
Florida: Sunshine State
Georgia: The Peach State
New York: The Empire State

The building takes its name from the State in which it is built. Why NY is called the "Empire State" is not fully known but there are a variety of explanations (there always are) including it's historical ownership by 2 colonial powers, it's wealth of resources (never understood that one) and, most likely, a reference George Washington once made to it being the seat of the Empire or some such in the late 18th Century.

johnnyskeleton

Deleted User wrote: »

New Jersey: The Garden State
Florida: Sunshine State
Georgia: The Peach State
New York: The Empire State

The building takes its name from the State in which it is built. Why NY is called the "Empire State" is not fully known but there are a variety of explanations (there always are) including it's historical ownership by 2 colonial powers, it's wealth of resources (never understood that one) and, most likely, a reference George Washington once made to it being the seat of the Empire or some such in the late 18th Century.

Re-read the OP. Victor wants to know why, after we left the dominion of the King/Queen of England the name of the Kings Inns wasn't changed. Same reason as the Empire State building was named for hisorical reasons and doesn't change according to the mode of governance.

Victor

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Re-read the OP. Victor wants to know why, after we left the dominion of the King/Queen of England the name of the Kings Inns wasn't changed. Same reason as the Empire State building was named for hisorical reasons and doesn't change according to the mode of governance.

But it seems it did change names at least once (or twice if one takes into account that it changes back).

I think the map dates from about 1830 (its before the railway at Broadstone).

johnnyskeleton

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Re-read the OP. Victor wants to know why, after we left the dominion of the King/Queen of England the name of the Kings Inns wasn't changed. Same reason as the Empire State building was named for hisorical reasons and doesn't change according to the mode of governance.

Don't need to re-read it. I know what he meant and I was simply commenting why the Empire State building was called that. Try re-reading my post.

johnnyskeleton

Victor wrote: »

But it seems it did change names at least once (or twice if one takes into account that it changes back).

I think the map dates from about 1830 (its before the railway at Broadstone).

First of all, this is an interesting thread, although I'm not sure the answers are readily available. The Kings Inns website itself is surprisingly short of historical information.

Second, while one interpretation of the map is that it changed name at least once or twice, it could also be that the cartographers (who were a bit eccentric I imagine, even for those days) were given false information.

By my researches, the map is probably 1830s because the Phoenix Park has the zoo so must be older than 1831 but doesn't have the people's garden so must be no later than 1840. This part of the Phoenix park website says "Historical - 1837" which suggests it was 1837:

http://www.phoenixpark.ie/maps/

This also tallies with info from the OSI website which suggests the original survey was between 1837 and 1842:

http://shop.osi.ie/Shop/Products/Default.aspx#historic

There is a suggestion that the Dublin mapping started in April 1837.

Vicky came to power in June 1837 and, unless you want to cast doubt on the sexual preferences of other british monarchs, she is the only auld queen that it might be named after.

So its possible that the map was drawn citing "Kings Inns" but as the final version was being completed the new monarch caused some confusion as to what the correct name was. Bear in mind in those days you couldn't just pick up the phone and get in contact with someone to get information, and also the Inns didn't really have full time staff other than maintenance/cleaning staff and possibly a librarian or two. A lot of their old records were buried in dusty old basements and cellars.

Vicky lasted until 1901. While I'm reluctant to cite wikipedia, Padraig Pearse graduated in 1900 from "Kings Inns":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padraig_Pearse

Although this could be a mistake on their part, I've seen that before. Edward Carson was also called to the bar during this time. I have a copy of his biography, which has letters and other source documents, and that might show some contemporaneous reference to Kings or Queen's Inns, but I don't recall it being referred to as Queen's Inns (that is something that I think I would recall).

Both are referred to here:

http://www.lawlibrary.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/aboutus/history/default.htm&m=2#chap21

The supreme court's website also suggests that Hugh Kennedy, called to the bar in 1902, studied at Kings Inns:

http://www.supremecourt.ie/supremecourt/sclibrary3.nsf/pagecurrent/B8E6388E466B6FB680257315005A41D3?opendocument&l=en

That, plus the reason why it is called King's Inns is because it is named in honour of the King that bought the land and gave it to the bar (as Lincoln's and Gray's Inns were named after their patrons; Inner and Middle Temple were named after the Knights Templar, although they weren't actually a benefactor).

There is nothing on the inns website to suggest that they changed their names according to the monarch (unlike, for example, references to the inner bar changing titles in the UK), and I believe (though haven't actually seen it) that the Inns were set up by royal charter and therefore cannot be renamed otherwise than with legislation.

The 25" historical calls it Kings Inns too, but I note that Monto is renamed Foley Street then so it is likely to have been after the turn of the century.

For all of that, I am inclined to think that it was a cartographer's mistake based on the belief that the name would change because of the queen. There had been over 100 years of Kings prior to Vicky, so it would be an easy mistake to make e.g. they might have asked a few barristers or locals who believed in early 1837 that the name should change, but when it came down to it the benchers decided not to change the name (or else because it was never officially sought no change was ever discussed).

However, it could also be a mistake by the Inns, and would be well worth looking into further. Maybe post on archiseek to see if they can drag up anything? That or email the Inns/Ordinance Survey to see if they can shed any light.

johnnyskeleton

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't need to re-read it. I know what he meant and I was simply commenting why the Empire State building was called that. Try re-reading my post.

I know why it was called the Empire State Building. Victor asked why it wasn't changed after the foundation of the state, and when I mentioned the Empire State Building and 20th Century Fox I was asking rhetorical questions because it is not uncommon for a building, place or company to retain an anacronistic name for historical reasons.