FORMULA SHEANE/VEE

wiger toods

So here we go again then.(my last thread was quickly closed after i put it somewhere i shouldnt have) My question is, what are the benefits for drivers who take part in the formula sheane/vee championships in ireland? is there any real chance of progression onto a more serious, professional formula? like, i dont know, say F3000 for example, or something like that. thats it!:D

Timmaay

Karting would be a better avenue to explore in my opinion, when you look at drivers like Niall Quinn. But money is the biggest problem, you will need lots of it alongside raw talent. And also, how many of the GP2 (replacement of f3000) drivers can call themselves professional (earn a salary just from the team/prizemoney etc and do not bring in any outside sponsorship), even if that championship is 2nd only to F1.

wiger toods

thanks for the replys lads, im afraid even if i was interested in getting involved in some class, at 26 id be a bit too old to be starting from scratch. its the nephew whos caught the bug im afraid, and despite my love of motorsport, i really wouldnt have a clue where to begin, or any helpful info for him, until you guys replied to my earlier post that is. karting it is so, thanks again.:D

SouperComputer

wiger toods wrote: »

My question is, what are the benefits for drivers who take part in the formula sheane/vee championships in ireland?

The benefit(s) are that you gain racing experience and they are relatively economical classes.

wiger toods wrote: »

is there any real chance of progression onto a more serious, professional formula? like, i dont know, say F3000 for example, or something like that. thats it!:D

Your "real chance" lies almost solely on money. You will need to find a way to fund your drive. Proving your worth may open more doors for you, but you are going to need serious cash no matter what.

If you are set on F3000 personally I'd lean towards karts at euro\world level in either KF1 or KZ before sheane\vee. I dont mean that as a slight against them, but most of the other F3000 potential hotshots that you will be getting compared to will have come from top level karting. Budget 30k/year for karts if you are serious about making a career out of this, you are going to be looking at world champ level. It aint easy, Senna didn't even win a world champ in karts. If you don't have 30K\year to spend in karting then honestly, forget about trying to get to F3000 (you wont want to know how much it is if 30K isnt feasible) or whatever and just have fun. It will take you at the very least two years of top-level national competition at 10-15K/year (you will need to travel to the UK at the very least and ideally to Belgium, France and Italy) to get to a level where you might be in contention for a good run at worlds. You should be looking at the KZ or KF1 classes.

On top of this, keep in mind you will be racing against drivers that have being racing at national and international level, at least ten times a year at speeds over 50MPH since they were 8 or younger.

So what I'm saying is its not easy, but don't be put off. If you start with the attitude that you are doing it for fun, you can't go wrong.

Kersh

^^ +1 ^^

Its gonna be dear.

Once he gets out of Karts and into cars this is approx costs depending on the team etc, and the amount of test days, but give ot take 20% on -
A year in FFord is about £100k, often just the 1 season is enough.
A year in FRenault is about £150k -£200k - budget for 2 seasons
A year in F3 is about £675k - again, budget for 2 seasons
A year in GP2 is £1.2 million, and again, it might take 2 years.

Then if he is brilliant, an F1 team might offer a test at the drivers cost.

If he is lucky and brilliant, Red Bull might pick him up along the way.

SouperComputer

I should point out that 30K for karts at World Champ level is on the low side too. Even 10 years ago people were spending in excess of 50K some as many at 100.

Vegeta

Hey folks, what are the costs, by that I mean what is the most expensive part of the budget. Travel?

That seems bat **** insane money for Karting. Is it mainly transport and logistics after the equipment is purchased or what is the big drain on the budget

SouperComputer

Vegeta wrote: »

Hey folks, what are the costs, by that I mean what is the most expensive part of the budget. Travel?

That seems bat **** insane money for Karting. Is it mainly transport and logistics after the equipment is purchased or what is the big drain on the budget

It sounds expensive if you think of the word "kart". But if you think "purpose designed high performance racing machine" which is what it is, it makes more sense. Thats why F1 drivers use them to stay in shape, or get back up to speed. Some have remarked that in some ways they are tougher than F1 to drive.

When you get to world champ level you are looking at the best of equipment, including expensive datalogging (PI systems with three IR probes per wheel are not uncommon), lots of testing with fresh engines and tyres, transport, accommodation, entry fees and paying for a top tuner/team to run you (This is REAL expensive). You are possibly looking at leasing your engines for the big races too as the quickest engines aren't necessarily "for sale". It's really no different to cars. Same governing body (CIK\FIA) and accordingly same licence system. It's just smaller and depending on what you compare it to in cars, faster too.

Now of course, you can try an do it on less money and indeed many have, but if you go through the process to get your licence upgraded so you can race at the world champs in KZ or KF, you better bring your A game, and that includes equipment.

wiger toods

Kersh wrote: »

^^ +1 ^^

Its gonna be dear.

Once he gets out of Karts and into cars this is approx costs depending on the team etc, and the amount of test days, but give ot take 20% on -
A year in FFord is about £100k, often just the 1 season is enough.
A year in FRenault is about £150k -£200k - budget for 2 seasons
A year in F3 is about £675k - again, budget for 2 seasons
A year in GP2 is £1.2 million, and again, it might take 2 years.

Then if he is brilliant, an F1 team might offer a test at the drivers cost.

If he is lucky and brilliant, Red Bull might pick him up along the way.

thats insane! really is! how in the name of god does any young lad, who like the rest of us lives in the real world, get going in this sport at all. think il suggest to him to stick with the football.

Kersh

thats insane! really is! how in the name of god does any young lad, who like the rest of us lives in the real world, get going in this sport at all

Very few make it. Even in F1 only the top 12-14 are actually paid. The rest are backed by sponsors, or just get hotels and travel paid for.

The hard shoulder on the motorway to F1 is littered with unfunded talent, meanwhile the F1 grids are very often filled with rich useless fukrs.

As for young lads getting into the sport, even if you do get that far, its all politics. Right now if you are Russian/Middle Eastern or Indian, Bernie will want you there, and like Petrov this year will make sure you stay. If you are Irish (no market here to tap), or say American (already they hate F1) then you will struggle to get a drive. Bernie runs the show, and if he doesnt want you there, you wont get in, no matter how good you are. Connections connections connections

Irish drivers full of talent that never made it due to budgets include Niall Breen (2006 UK FBmw champion), Niall Quinn (Red Bull scholarship winner), Bernard Dolan (1989 UK FFord champion), Tommy Byrne (partly politics to blame), Wayne Douglas (1993? Formula Opel B Champion) etc etc

SouperComputer

wiger toods wrote: »

thats insane! really is! how in the name of god does any young lad, who like the rest of us lives in the real world, get going in this sport at all. think il suggest to him to stick with the football.

Why stick to football? 99.8% of people are in racing for the fun of it. Some of my closest friends and greatest memories are from racing. Go to a kart race and check it out, don't be discouraged by the amount of money it costs at the very top level. Most people in the sport spend a lot less than what has been posted above, but if you have aspirations of getting to F1, thats how much dough its going to take.

Timmaay

SouperComputer wrote: »

Why stick to football? 99.8% of people are in racing for the fun of it. Some of my closest friends and greatest memories are from racing. Go to a kart race and check it out, don't be discouraged by the amount of money it costs. Most people spend a lot less than what has been posted above, but if you have aspirations of getting to F1, thats how much dough its going to take.

Great post after all the negative ones before it :pac:! At the end of the day success is a journey not a destination in my opinion. Just like you can have fun every weekend playing soccer and dream about being the next Rooney, same is true about karting/Fvee and making it to F1. The odds are stacked against you making it, but once you have your fun along the way its worth it.

In terms of starting out, Karting is a cheap enough motorsport to get in, you can pick up a 2nd hand kart for less then 2k, and spend your 1st year justing going to practice events and getting use of a kart and having a ball of a time with the shear speed of it, if you want to take it from there after your 1st year, racing isn't that expensive, you'd get by on 200quid a race meeting, however if you think its all not for you, then the 2nd hand kart wont have lost too much value so you wont be out of pocket much.

SouperComputer

Timmaay wrote: »

Great post after all the negative ones before it :pac:! At the end of the day success is a journey not a destination in my opinion. Just like you can have fun every weekend playing soccer and dream about being the next Rooney, same is true about karting/Fvee and making it to F1. The odds are stacked against you making it, but once you have your fun along the way its worth it.

Theres nothing negative about my posts. If you have aspirations of getting to the top of the sport via world and euro champ karting, thats what you can expect to pay. Depending on who you know you can do the top level stuff cheaper, but it isnt cheap no matter what.

I've done the 200quid/weekend (less actually, but that was 10 years ago) and stopped it. Between tyres, fuel, transport, your entry and testing fees you are cutting it tight. If anything goes wrong, throw a chain or something you are in trouble. That said, you have to do what you can with what you have, thats part of the challenge of racing IMO. Even though it seems expensive, when you look at it per euro, my opinion you will find it hard to beat the level of competition and speed of karting.

Timmaay

SouperComputer wrote: »

Theres nothing negative about my posts

Don't worry I wasn't being serious (hence the :pac:), it was just we seemed to scare off the OP completely to the point he suggested just getting his nephew to play soccer instead.

But yeh, in terms of getting into motorsport, Karting is certainly the way in terms of the speed and relative cost!

wiger toods

Timmaay wrote: »

Don't worry I wasn't being serious (hence the :pac:), it was just we seemed to scare off the OP completely to the point he suggested just getting his nephew to play soccer instead.

But yeh, in terms of getting into motorsport, Karting is certainly the way in terms of the speed and relative cost!

ah we will see what happens! it would seem a lot of desire and determination would really be needed, just as much as cash and talent. He has it all ahead of him, so we'll see what happens. if he really, really wants to try it, then theres always a way, whatever the cost and what does 'OP' stand for?:D

wiger toods

so lads, ive been doing quite a lot of homework on the karting thing now. ive been looking at irishkarting.com, and i must say i didnt realise how organised and serious the whole thing is. its impressive. My nephew is only 5, so is he too young? ive noticed by looking at the 'getting started' section on IK.com that he would be way too young to race in the cadets class. is this the lowest class there is? Now! After watching some vids on youtube, :DIT LOOKS REALLY COOL:D and it looks like il be buying a kart for the young lad and myself(its getting expensive already). ive had a good long, look at ik.com now, so which is the toughest class to race for myself, im 26? i want to learn the hard way! also any info on what is the best kart to buy would be great. ive noticed on donedeal.ie the prices vary quite a bit. Anything from e500-e2000. the rotax ones seem to be at the slightly more expensive side. forgive the ignorance on this as i dont know one kart from the other! me just wanna race!

SouperComputer

Yep, karting in Europe is governed by a section of the the FIA (called the CIK), which prettymuch covers everything up to and including F1.

He can't race in CIK sanctioned events until he's 8. However thats not to say that he cant go testing and practice before then. That and he can start to get experience with sims like iRacing, Live for Speed. RFactor, Netkar, Richard Burns Rally (forget Colin Macrae series) and Grand Prix Legends. Dont bother with GT though, unless GT5 is a departure from their business model its not going to be realistic. Forza on the Xbox is pretty good however. I'm think some of the indoor kart places have bambino karts that they can drive at 5 or so. Call around and see who does it, that'll will give you an idea of weather its something that he wants to do.

Toughest class to race would probably be KZ but it would be really unwise to start in that class. They are violently quick and even some season racing drivers struggle to get to grips with them. Max or superpro are easy enough to get going with to gain experience but also have some quick drivers when you get to that level. It wont be easy though.

If you decide to run Max, make sure you get a log book for the engine and that its still sealed. Chassis wise, dont get too tied up on year or brand, the condition is more important than either. I posted some buying tips earlier under someone else's "Rotax Max" thread here: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056073206

wiger toods

SouperComputer wrote: »

Yep, karting in Europe is governed by a section of the the FIA (called the CIK), which prettymuch covers everything up to and including F1.

He can't race in CIK sanctioned events until he's 8. However thats not to say that he cant go testing and practice before then. That and he can start to get experience with sims like iRacing, Live for Speed. RFactor, Netkar, Richard Burns Rally (forget Colin Macrae series) and Grand Prix Legends. Dont bother with GT though, unless GT5 is a departure from their business model its not going to be realistic. Forza on the Xbox is pretty good however. I'm think some of the indoor kart places have bambino karts that they can drive at 5 or so. Call around and see who does it, that'll will give you an idea of weather its something that he wants to do.

Toughest class to race would probably be KZ but it would be really unwise to start in that class. They are violently quick and even some season racing drivers struggle to get to grips with them. Max or superpro are easy enough to get going with to gain experience but also have some quick drivers when you get to that level. It wont be easy though.

If you decide to run Max, make sure you get a log book for the engine and that its still sealed. Chassis wise, dont get too tied up on year or brand, the condition is more important than either. I posted some buying tips earlier under someone else's "Rotax Max" thread here: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056073206

hey thanks for the info! much appreciated. how do you mean if the engine is sealed though? i wouldnt even know how to look for that. thanks again sc.

BoB_DoG

http://thehearth.biz/Dr.Sullivan/seal.gif (Thats a pic of a rotax max seal)

Rotax max cant be tuned and can only be rebuilt by licensed rebuilders. To insure no one breaks the rules, the rebuilders put one of these seals on the engine. You cant get at the piston without breaking the seal. This keeps costs down and the racing close.

If your worried about costs getting started, get a rotax max and run it in the Midlands Championship. Its a series (12 races) all held at Midland Raceway (http://www.midlandkarting.net/). More info on the site. Its a great, club level series and you don't need a license. Last year, races were €60 (practise, qualifying and 3 races, all on Sunday morning) and the tires were €120 a set. Set could last you 2 race days but thats pushing it if ya want to maintain lap-times. €5 euros to rent a transponder (for logging lap times). Theres a real friendly vibe up there and everyone helps each other out if they have a problem with their kart. The grid is usually between 15-24 karts of varying speed. About 2 seconds seperates 1st from last.

The national series is a different level and if your serious about racing its the way to go. Its more expensive and the guys are quick as hell though so if you just wanted to have fun and learn a bit, Midlands is the way to go. I've run maybe 5 races per year in it for the last 2 years and I'd be rofl-stomped in the nationals, I'm starting to learn about set-up, am confident to out-break someone at 60mph and know all the basic maintenance necessaries. If your coming in stone-cold, you'd have a very tough year in the national series because you'd still have to learn all of the above but the guys would be that bit quicker and tougher...

Hope this helps!