Northern Ireland-ROI switchover

scath

I emailed digital UK regarding inclusion of Saorview in the Ulster section which I think will be helpful to border citizens.

The guy at Digital UK very helpfully gave me an update regarding same and has added a link at: http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/when_do_i_switch/utv_region


Thank you for your email, which has been forwarded to me by ***** at our Contact Centre. I thought it would be helpful to explain the current situation with regards to DTT reception in Ulster, and how we intend to advise viewers in Northern Ireland of their range of options for digital television in the near future.

Currently two-thirds (66%) of homes in Northern Ireland will be able to receive Freeview services from the three main transmitters (Brougher Mountain, Divis and Limavady).

At switchover in 2012 the Freeview service will be boosted in power and extended to the relay transmitters for the first time, making it available to 98% of homes.

Our postcode checker advises consumers of Freeview availability before and after switchover at www.digitaluk.co.uk.

You make the very good point that since the launch of DTT services in the Republic on 29th October 2010, some households will find that they can receive 'cross-border' Saorview DTT services.

Unfortunately, we do not have access to coverage information for Saorview, and the extent to which it overlaps into Northern Ireland, so cannot represent this on the postcode checker in the same address-specific way. (have provided links to here and TechTir, Mpeg4ireland and saortv.info so perhaps we can help in this one in addition to the official people..(rtenl))

However, we have added a note to the UTV regional page of our website to mention that Saorview has launched and may be available to some homes in Northern Ireland near the Ireland border, linking through to the Saorview website.

Saorview has chosen to operate on a different transmission standard to that used in the UK. We are currently working with the Department for Culture, Media & Sport and Ofcom; RTÉ and the Irish Government to understand the interoperability of the two systems, and therefore what equipment Northern Ireland viewers wishing to receive Saorview services should be advised to buy.

Finally, we are awaiting the Irish and British Government's next steps on the Memorandum of Understanding that you note in your email.

As you know, this MoU enables North-South co-operation on digital switchover, and provides for the carriage of TG4 on the DTT platform in Northern Ireland as well as an opportunity for RTÉ to be transmitted over DTT in the North.

The two Governments, Ofcom and the respective broadcasters are currently working to translate this ambition into a technical proposal. When this has been confirmed and announced, we will be able to reflect this predicted coverage on our postcode checker, as well as provide consumer advice on the equipment that will be needed to receive it.

I hope this addresses the points you raise in your email"


I think it does very well..good to know they are working hard on it!! Good, good, all coming together...slowly but surely!! I suggested a joint campaign in 2012 rather than 2 seperate ones..as cost effective and Freeview HD and Saorview logos on the Freeview HD boxes once confirmed its compatible with each other.

Sam Russell

It is interesting to note his reference to TG4 being available on DTT, and RTE 'having the opportunity' to be on DTT. I assume this means TG4 is free, and RTE will have to pay.

The Cush

scath wrote: »

Unfortunately, we do not have access to coverage information for Saorview, and the extent to which it overlaps into Northern Ireland, so cannot represent this on the postcode checker in the same address-specific way. (have provided links to here and TechTir, Mpeg4ireland and saortv.info so perhaps we can help in this one in addition to the official people..(rtenl))

I'd be very surprised if they had coverage information when you consider very few this side of the border have any coverage info either.

The Cush

scath wrote: »

I emailed digital UK regarding inclusion of Saorview in the Ulster section which I think will be helpful to border citizens.

The guy at Digital UK very helpfully gave me an update regarding same and has added a link at: http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/when_do_i_switch/utv_region

Ofcom are the UK authority dealing with the technical aspects of the MoU and multiplexes. This was their position earlier this year

Northern Ireland MOU

3.15 There are two agreements in place between the governments of the UK and the Republic of Ireland concerning the relay of Irish television services in Northern Ireland. The first is the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement of 10 April 1998. This committed the UK Government to exploring urgently the scope for achieving more widespread availability of Irish language television service TG4, in Northern Ireland. The second is the MOU on the reciprocal relay of television services, signed on 1 February 2010.

3.16 Both governments wrote to their respective spectrum regulators (us in the UK, the Commission for Communications Regulation in the Republic) in May 2009 asking that the spectrum negotiations between the two countries aim to identify suitable interleaved spectrum whose preferred use would be the relay of an additional low-capacity, low-power DTT multiplex in Northern Ireland capable of carrying the three services RTÉ One, RTÉ Two and TG4 on the three Northern Ireland main transmitters. The UK Government has indicated it is minded to direct us for this purpose. Suitable spectrum would need to be identified and awarded in line with any such direction.

3.17 There are some uncertainties in realising such a multiplex. The technical feasibility and the quality of available interleaved spectrum have both yet to be established. Because of these and other uncertainties, the option of carrying TG4 on the Digital 3&4 PSB multiplex in Northern Ireland after DSO in 2012 is being held open by DCMS. It is anticipated that RTÉ One, RTÉ Two and TG4 will, in any event, continue to be available in Northern Ireland after DSO by overspill from transmitters in the Republic. The extent of predicted coverage for this overspill has yet to be established.

Northern Ireland

4.13 Arqiva carried out a similar study in late 2007 looking into optimisation of the interleaved spectrum in Northern Ireland.This showed it was possible at that time to find channels for an additional DTT multiplex to be broadcast at each of the main stations in Northern Ireland. The multiplex would have reasonable coverage provided a robust transmission mode was used. However, this work predated more recent spectrum-planning work, including work on clearing the 800 MHz band. As mentioned above, we probably will not know the exact details of interleaved channels and locations that will be available for award until later in 2010. As mentioned in paragraphs 3.15-3.17, the Government has indicated it may direct us on the use of some such spectrum in Northern Ireland. Bearing this in mind, we are endeavouring to identify additional frequencies in the interleaved spectrum that might be suitable for other uses, such as local television.

Northern Ireland

4.65 Our June 2008 consultation also noted it might be possible to optimise interleaved spectrum in Northern Ireland and so improve coverage there. However, as with Scotland, we will not know the exact details of the geographic interleaved spectrum available for award until the conclusion of the international negotiations on clearing the 800 MHz band. Also, we will have to find suitable spectrum in line with any direction by the Government to establish a multiplex to carry Irish television services from the three Northern Ireland main transmitters.

In paragraph 3.17 Ofcom states "It is anticipated that RTÉ One, RTÉ Two and TG4 will, in any event, continue to be available in Northern Ireland after DSO by overspill from transmitters in the Republic. The extent of predicted coverage for this overspill has yet to be established".

Since that public comment from Ofcom Saorsat has been announced and if terrestrial overspill combined with Saorsat gives complete coverage of NI there may not be a requirement to roll out the Irish channels from the local NI transmitters. Would RTÉ pay for terrestrial carriage in NI with Saorsat coverage available?

The MoU signed earlier this year includes cooperation and coordination on public information campaigns both sides of the border during the transition and at ASO. Information to include coverage and content.

We also know from Comreg that ASO will take place here in Q4 2012 in conjunction with NI

On Thursday 29 July 2010, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (“the Minister”), announced that analogue terrestrial television will be switched-off in the State in Quarter 4 of 2012, in conjunction with analogue switchover in Northern Ireland.

SRB

There must be talks ongoing at the moment, Kippure's coverage to the North East has been curtailed on CH 54, there must have been issues raised during the tests over the last year. As I mentioned when the second mux was running last week on 58, it was rock solid while 54 was still too weak to lock.

Glenelly My Home

Is there a postcode checker or something similar for Saorview?
I live in Tyrone. I would buy a PS3 playTV if I was sure of getting Saorview, but I have no way of checking. I know I can't get freeview using their postcode checker and with my digital TV tuner (uk type)

watty

1) Ireland's post codes are secret
2) You are north of Border..
3) If RTE NL don't do coverage maps soon, I will on saortv.info . I will see can I do a post code checker for N.I. addresses.
4) It's likely if Ka-Sat works that N.I. coverage will be regarded by DCNER as done by Satellite (April / May 2011)

See www.mpeg4ireland.com and www.saortv.info

Upgrade to "Freeview HD". You'll get UK HD on it in Jan 2013. That will do Saorview.

If you have a PC or a suitable laptop a DUAL tuner USB DTT sitck is 1/2 the price of a PlayTV stick.

The Cush

Glenelly My Home wrote: »

Is there a postcode checker or something similar for Saorview?

See my post #3 above.

This from the Saorview website

Contact

Until spring 2011, SAORVIEW is a trial service. In the lead up the launch of the full service the SAORVIEW website will provide much more detailed information regarding receivers, coverage, channels/services, etc. In the meantime should you have a query please send an email to the following address and we will get back to you as quickly as possible:

saorview@rte.ie

http://saorview.ie/contact.html

Glenelly My Home

1. What a about a townland search?;)

2. Close enough to it, that hopefully I can get Saorview and not have to wait too see if Saorsat works. Also PS3 PlayTV seems handy.

3. Thanks that would be great

4. Would like to get in on the act as soon as possible.

I know up north you can check teletext to see if you can get Freeview.
Anything similar with Aertel and Saorview?

Glenelly My Home

The Cush wrote: »

See my post #3 above.

This from the Saorview website

Thanks Cush, wait and see then

The Cush

Glenelly My Home wrote: »

I know up north you can check teletext to see if you can get Freeview.
Anything similar with Aertel and Saorview?

No.

sesswhat

Glenelly My Home wrote: »

I know up north you can check teletext to see if you can get Freeview.
Anything similar with Aertel and Saorview?

Where are you getting your RTE analogue from?

Your Freeview TV can tune in the Saorview radio stations (as well as sound on the TV channels) if it is available on that transmitter. The potential Saorview Transmitters for you at this stage are Truskmore and Holywell Hill. If you are deep in Glenelly Valley it may be a while before you get any digital Tv at all.

Glenelly My Home

sesswhat wrote: »

Where are you getting your RTE analogue from?

Your Freeview TV can tune in the Saorview radio stations (as well as sound on the TV channels) if it is available on that transmitter. The potential Saorview Transmitters for you at this stage are Truskmore and Holywell Hill. If you are deep in Glenelly Valley it may be a while before you get any digital Tv at all.

I'm not sure which transmitter it is. Might be Sligo. I currently only get RTE 1 & 2.

The Cush

Glenelly My Home wrote: »

I'm not sure which transmitter it is. Might be Sligo. I currently only get RTE 1 & 2.

What frequency/channel do you get RTÉ 1/2 on? VHF or UHF?

Truskmore requires two aerials for analogue & digital, vhf & uhf. Holywell Hill requires just one for both analogue & digital.

lawhec

Glenelly Valley? Almost certainly Truskmore on VHF, at least in Plumbridge. Don't know about Cranagh, but Holywell Hill is unlikely as it co-channels on the local "Glenelly Valley" relay with Holywell.

The Cush

lawhec wrote: »

Glenelly Valley? Almost certainly Truskmore on VHF, at least in Plumbridge. Don't know about Cranagh, but Holywell Hill is unlikely as it co-channels on the local "Glenelly Valley" relay with Holywell.

If Glenelly My Home is receiving Truskmore VHF he should also receive analogue TV3 & TG4 and Saorview with the correct Group C/D UHF aerial from the new 175m mast (increased from 135m).

Sponge Bob

The Cush wrote: »

If Glenelly My Home is receiving Truskmore VHF he should also receive analogue TV3 & TG4 and Saorview with the correct Group C/D UHF aerial from the new 175m mast (increased from 135m).

Yep, change of aerial and a "Freesat HD" tuner should sort everything out and they are also ready for Freesat HD from Brougher in future on the existing Brougher aerial.

lawhec

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Yep, change of aerial and a "Freesat HD" tuner should sort everything out and they are also ready for Freesat HD from Brougher in future on the existing Brougher aerial.

Reception of Brougher in the Glenelly Valley is pretty much non-existent, reception doesn't get much past the southern face of the Sperrins except in a few high-ish isolated places. Divis and Limavady doesn't reach either, even the big Strabane mast that isn't far away can't penetrate it well, NI TV reception in the area relies on two small relays, Plumbridge in the west of the valley, and Glenelly Valley in the east. One problem in Plumbridge though - the relay is Group C/D (E52, E56, E66, E68), same group as Truskmore UHF and the current Saorview multiplex on E53 can't be easily combined. Glenelly Valley is Group A (E23, E26, E29, E33) and could be more easily combined, but I haven't been through Cranagh (it's main target village) in some time, so firing up Google Maps (coverage up here seems to have been done in Summer 2009) to take a look through the place doesn't show any UHF aerials pointing at Truskmore, just Truskmore VHF and vertical Group A's for Glenelly Valley. Not 100% on this, but VHF from Truskmore might be OK but the (much) higher frequencies on UHF can't get past the mountains just as well as VHF does.

The Glenelly Valley area is a beautiful spot, especially on a nice Summer's day, but it's a nightmare when it comes to TV and even FM reception (the area isn't regarded as in the service area for BBC FM radio).

egal

Any idea what transmitter would be the best bet for RTE DTT at the lower end of the Tamlaght Road in Omagh (close to Culmore old school)?

Peter Henderson

Some interesting comments from Greg Dyke:

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/broadcasting/news/a288272/greg-dyke-backs-new-scottish-tv-channel.html

Also at the conference, Dyke predicted that STV and Ulster Television - the last major networks holding Channel 3 licences - will face major challenges in the years ahead.

He said that ITV would most likely seek to broadcast flagship channel ITV1 directly into Scotland and Ireland once the licences expire in 2014, just as it currently does with ITV2.

That would mean STV and UTV would not be able to air major ITV shows such as Coronation Street and Emmerdale, reducing their appeal to viewers.

Richard

Digitalspy.co.uk wrote: »

Also at the conference, Dyke predicted that STV and Ulster Television - the last major networks holding Channel 3 licences - will face major challenges in the years ahead.

He said that ITV would most likely seek to broadcast flagship channel ITV1 directly into Scotland and Ireland once the licences expire in 2014, just as it currently does with ITV2.

That would mean STV and UTV would not be able to air major ITV shows such as Coronation Street and Emmerdale, reducing their appeal to viewers.

ITV2 is only broadcast into Scotland and NI (and the Channel Islands) because the regional companies lease the space required to ITV plc.

I think though that UTV have anticipated this and have considered teaming up with Channel 4 or 5 to provide a "network" feed to which they can add regional news and the occasional other programme.

watty

They also have been diversifying for years into ISP and Radio.

SRB

Though on the other hand, they recently upgraded all their facilities to HD, which seems a strange move if they planning to offload the TV side of things.

Glenelly My Home

The Cush wrote: »

What frequency/channel do you get RTÉ 1/2 on? VHF or UHF?

Truskmore requires two aerials for analogue & digital, vhf & uhf. Holywell Hill requires just one for both analogue & digital.

RTÉ 1 C11
RTÉ 2 C9

lawhec

egal wrote: »

Any idea what transmitter would be the best bet for RTE DTT at the lower end of the Tamlaght Road in Omagh (close to Culmore old school)?

In that part of Omagh, I believe that pre-DTT days Holywell Hill was the "best" transmitter to receive, but these days because of co-channel with Brougher Mountain, there's a mix of Truskmore, Carin Hill and on higher ground, Clermont Carn aerials. As I've said before, if it wasn't for Pigeon Top, RTÉ from Truskmore would pretty much romp into the town.

lawhec

Glenelly My Home wrote: »

RTÉ 1 C11
RTÉ 2 C9

Truskmore it is then. What channel is BBC1 on?

Glenelly My Home

lawhec wrote: »

Truskmore it is then. What channel is BBC1 on?

C39

The Cush

Glenelly My Home wrote: »

C39

The other channels I would guess are 42, 45, 49, Strabane?

If so Truskmore analogue TV3 & TG4 (UHF 60 & 63) and Saorview (UHF 53 & 57 - possible 2nd mux) should be possible with a Group C/D aerial.

Once the Saorview trial becomes a full service next May and be interruption free you will only require a UHF aerial combined with your current aerial.

Glenelly My Home

The Cush wrote: »

The other channels I would guess are 42, 45, 49, Strabane?

That's them.
Thanks for your help.

Fingleberries

Hi All,

Hopefully this doesn't hijack the thread (Mods, please feel free to delete if necessary). I just had a query, and I know there's no 100% answer to this, just looking for the general consensus on this.

Living in North County Dublin, we get the four main UK Terrestrial Channels from Northern Ireland (BBC1, 2, UTV and CH4). We've been able to get these for the last 30-odd years at least, unfortunately I don't know which transmitter.

Now, when I use the Ceefax / Teletext Check it shows the pattern perfectly for BBC1, BBC2 and UTV. For Channel 4, it can't find the page (or any Teletext at all).

Two quick questions arising from this:
1. What would the general feeling be regards receiving freeview when the signal is boosted for NI-DSO in 2012 based on the results of the test pattern?
2. Is the missing Teletext on Channel 4 just because Channel 4 doesn't do teletext any more?

Thanks in advance for any advice / input.

Sponge Bob

There is a general feeling that transmitters scheduled for installation in Navan and Drogheda may weaken some NI signals ( Divis) even though the polarisation will be different. You should email RTENL and ask them for installation plans and the frequencies and the polarisation for the Drogheda and Navan DTT Transmitters.

http://www.ukfree.tv/shutdowndetail.php?tx=IJ287750

shows channels in use ( at low power) and channels that will cut over to digital

Now Drogheda and Navan are supposed to use these channel numbers

Drogheda 21 24 27 31
Navan ( speculation by TBC) 23, 26, 30, 34

Discussed here many moons ago

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055348269&highlight=Navan+Drogheda

and here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64879628&postcount=8

watty

However my information is that Drogheda is simply not happening at all, ever and Navan may not.

Glenelly My Home

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Yep, change of aerial and a "Freesat HD" tuner should sort everything out and they are also ready for Freesat HD from Brougher in future on the existing Brougher aerial.

I got a new aerial (not installed yet). I was wondering if it would be ok for Saorview or to give me TV3 and TnaG with my existing VHF.
Would this also do to replace my existing VHF?
It is a 43 element High-Gain Aerial

Specifications:
Group:
Wideband
Channel number:
21 - 68
Elements:
''43
Forward gain:
10.0-14.0
Front back ratio:
24-26 dB
Length:
1220 mm

Specifications: Group:Wideband Channel number:21 - 68 Elements:''43 Forward gain:10.0-14.0 Front back ratio:24-26 dB Length:1220 mm

Richard

Fingleberries wrote:

For Channel 4, it can't find the page (or any Teletext at all).

Two quick questions arising from this:
1. What would the general feeling be regards receiving freeview when the signal is boosted for NI-DSO in 2012 based on the results of the test pattern?
2. Is the missing Teletext on Channel 4 just because Channel 4 doesn't do teletext any more?

Thanks in advance for any advice / input.

I think Ch4 Teletext is still going - although like ITV Teletext, it's really reduced.

The lack of reception might be due (if you receive from Divis) to Ch4 being on Ch21, at the edge of the aerial range.

aidz

anyone know what date in 2012 the digital sitchover is happening in NI?

Peter Rhea

Don't think there's a definite date yet, the authorities still haven't issued a plan.

watty

I think they are waiting for Minister of Communications Energy & Natural Resources to sign a date in Law here. N.I. is co-coordinating with us and we are Q4 2012.

Schedule of N.I. ASO (unconfirmed)

Brougher April 2012 in time for the Olympics

Limavady September. 2012

Divis November 2012

Keep checking at the Official UK Site “Digital UK” UTV region

see http://www.saortv.info/about/n-i-digital/

When is this happening?
At the moment there is no confirmed date for the old analogue signal to be switched off. All we know is that it will definitely happen before the end of 2012, so it is worth considering your options and preparing for the digital signal during 2011

The Cush

aidz wrote: »

anyone know what date in 2012 the digital sitchover is happening in NI?

Information posted back in early Nov by Sam the Aerialman

Sam the Aerialman wrote: »

Just to add Arqiva have confirmed that Divis will switchover in November 2012 not March 2013 as is commented in places. There will be a planned retune of frequencies at possibly Divis & Caldbeck to uprate the COM muxes at Caldbeck which are currently low powered.

Brougher will go in April in time for the Olympics and Limavady will go in September. There's to be some re-jig to switch Crystal Palace, Rowridge & Hannington in Q1 of 2012. Midhurst and Heathfield will then be switched over mid summer.

Sam the Aerialman wrote: »

No official press releases or links just information i get from my contacts in Arqiva.

I can confirm with absolutely certainty Divis will switch over in November 2012.