Cyclists pavement footpath law children?

Monkstownman

Hi,
Can someone tell me where I stand in this situation will regard to the law?

I cycle my two children (age 4 and 7) to school on my bike. One on the crossbar seat the other on a self pedaling attachment to my bike (legally, is the child then cycling).

Most of my journey is on the road but for part of it I ride on the footpath (there is no cycle path, it's just incredibly dangerous).

Anyhow, the bottom line is I'm cycling on the footpath with my kids.

Now, do children under a certain age have a right to cycle on the footpath? I mean there can be no circumstances when a 4 year old should cycle on a main road?

I refer you to this post which in my view seems like wishful thinking

CramCycle wrote: »

AFAIK your not breaking the law if your accompanying children under 16 but I could be wrong

I don't want to piss off pedestrians (I cycle less than 5km/hour on the path) but I do.

Any thoughts?

dayshah

Monkstownman wrote: »

Hi,
Can someone tell me where I stand in this situation will regard to the law?

I cycle my two children (age 4 and 7) to school on my bike. One on the crossbar seat the other on a self pedaling attachment to my bike (legally, is the child then cycling).

Most of my journey is on the road but for part of it I ride on the footpath (there is no cycle path, it's just incredibly dangerous).

Anyhow, the bottom line is I'm cycling on the footpath with my kids.

Now, do children under a certain age have a right to cycle on the footpath? I mean there can be no circumstances when a 4 year old should cycle on a main road?

I refer you to this post which in my view seems like wishful thinking


I don't want to piss off pedestrians (I cycle less than 5km/hour on the path) but I do.

Any thoughts?

As far you are cycling slow and yielding to pedestrians I don't see the problem. Live and let live.

If anyone gets worked up they'd want to relax. That said, its easier to deal with worked up pedestrians than motorists.

72hundred

Common sense. Have some and you're fine. Despite the huge waiting list of cases against child cyclists

doozerie

As to the question of cycling on the footpath, it is illegal as per the Rules of the Road:

Don't ever ride on or across a footpath, other than where a cycle track is provided on the footpath.

I don't see any qualification in there for children but from what I have seen the gardai are likely to turn a blind eye to children cycling on the footpath. They might well turn a blind eye to an adult doing so too but that is far less likely. The fact that you have kids on, or attached to, your bike potentially makes you a greater danger to people on the footpath so I think it even less likely again that a garda would ignore you in these circumstances.

Whatever about the legality though, and the risk of you being stopped by a garda, cycling on a footpath poses dangers to pedestrians (and to young kids cycling on the footpath too). You can reduce those risks by cycling more slowly, etc., but you can't eliminate the risk that you pose. So legal stuff aside you have to decide whether you are happy to pose such a risk, and in considering this you shouldn't just think of it from the point of view of you while on the bike, think also about the risks posed to you and your kids (while walking) by someone else choosing to cycle on the footpath - then decide whether the risks seem acceptable to you/others. The alternative is to walk for the stretches of road that you deem too dangerous. 5km per hour is walking speed anyway so rather than struggle to control a laden bike at that extremely low cycling speed you might as well do yourself and others a favour and walk with the bike with your kids still on their respective seats.

tomasrojo

I imagine a bike laden in that manner would be prone to falling over if walked. Cycling at a moderate pace (8km/h or so) would be more stable.

The Gardai seem to turn a blind eye to children cycling on the footpath, but I'm not sure about adults cycling with children on board. It only takes one reproaching you to ruin your day.

I'm sure you know this already, but cycle paths are not necessarily safer than the road. In fact, frequently in Ireland they are considerable less safe. The footpath can be hazardous due to you being hidden from emerging cars, and the high risk of collisions with pedestrians. Depends on the footpath, depends on the cycle path, depends on the road. As I said, I'm sure you know this already, and I've no wish to insult you by belabouring the obvious!

What is this section of road that is too dangerous, do you mind me asking, and is there an alternative route perhaps? Is it a long section of road, or quite short?

BostonB

doozerie wrote: »

As to the question of cycling on the footpath, it is illegal as per the Rules of the Road:....

Is that an actual law though?

markcroninbsc

doozerie wrote: »

Whatever about the legality though, and the risk of you being stopped by a garda, cycling on a footpath poses dangers to pedestrians (and to young kids cycling on the footpath too). You can reduce those risks by cycling more slowly, etc., but you can't eliminate the risk that you pose. So legal stuff aside you have to decide whether you are happy to pose such a risk, and in considering this you shouldn't just think of it from the point of view of you while on the bike, think also about the risks posed to you and your kids (while walking) by someone else choosing to cycle on the footpath - then decide whether the risks seem acceptable to you/others. The alternative is to walk for the stretches of road that you deem too dangerous. 5km per hour is walking speed anyway so rather than struggle to control a laden bike at that extremely low cycling speed you might as well do yourself and others a favour and walk with the bike with your kids still on their respective seats.

<yoink>

Cookie_Monster

just cycle on the road, it's not "incredibly dangerous" by any stretch of the imagination.

Bill2673

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

just cycle on the road, it's not "incredibly dangerous" by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't think it has to be incredibly dangerous. I'd say it just has to be a little bit dangerous for you decide not to do it, especially with kids on board.

manwithaplan

I always cycle on the road when I have a child on board. If I am with the ones that are old enough to cycle themselves, I sometimes let them cycle on the path while I go alongside them on the road but I try to get them used to the road too. I am pretty sure I would cycle on the road regardless of traffic if I had control of the direction of the bike, even if I had one of those attachment jobbies.

Having said that, don't worry too much about it. Do what you are comfortable with, try not to inconvenience pedestrians and play nice. You are almost certainly breaking the law but I doubt that you will find yourself in the dock any time soon.

Lumen

Bill2673 wrote: »

I don't think it has to be incredibly dangerous. I'd say it just has to be a little bit dangerous for you decide not to do it, especially with kids on board.

I know how you feel. When you're two-up with kids like that, the mild fear you get about "death from behind" when cycling solo, which is easily suppressed with a bit of HTFU, becomes difficult to suppress. It's not just about you any more.

That said, the peds are getting annoyed for a reason, so maybe you just need to be less annoying somehow. Annoying the occasional idiot suggests the problem is them, but if it's happening more often then it's probably you.

Jawgap

Surely with a name like "Monkstownman" you should be driving your kids to school in Chelsea Tractor, not getting them all active and exposing them to fresh air:) How dare you enrich their lives like that!

Anyway on a more serious note, I would've thought that the vast majority of pedestrians and Guards wouldn't really care as long as you were using the path in a careful and considerate fashion. I'd go so far as to say most people would think it quite nice to see kids getting brought school in the manner you described, rather than the "traditional" South Dublin School Run.......

BostonB

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

just cycle on the road, it's not "incredibly dangerous" by any stretch of the imagination.

In fairness. That depends on the road.

Cookie_Monster

BostonB wrote: »

In fairness. That depends on the road.

I'd say it more depends on the person and their perception of what is actually dangerous. I've yet to find a road that is incredibly dangerous to cycle on, and if the OP is from Monkstown in South Dublin as suspected above then there are none in that area at all.

BostonB

A lot of junctions you have to get up to speed with traffic in order to take a turn/junction. Taking a right turn across 3 lanes on the Quays, or round a busy roundabout, Walkinstown, d'olier st etc.

While I can do this myself. Doing this with a 4yr old and a 7yr attached I wouldn't do, not on ALL roads and junctions.

tomasrojo

BostonB wrote: »

A lot of junctions you have to get up to speed with traffic in order to take a turn/junction. Taking a right turn across 3 lanes on the Quays, or round a busy roundabout, Walkinstown, d'olier st etc.

While I can do this myself. Doing this with a 4yr old and a 7yr attached I wouldn't do, not on ALL roads and junctions.

I think that's about right. Most roads are fine, but you're not as stable with a child seat and a trailing bike, so you can't really take junctions as easily as you would on your own.

I think I'm going to get a Christiania, like DFD has. That looks as if you could negotiate most junctions with peace of mind.

doozerie

BostonB wrote: »

Is that an actual law though?

Yes, as per S.I. No. 182/1997 — Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations, 1997:

(5) A reference to a vehicle in these Regulations shall, unless otherwise specified, mean a mechanically propelled vehicle (other than a mechanically propelled wheelchair) and a pedal cycle.

13. (1) Subject to sub-articles (2) and (3), a vehicle shall not be driven along or across a footway.

(2) Sub-article (1) does not apply to a vehicle being driven for the purpose of access to or egress from a place adjacent to the footway.

(3) A reference in sub-article (1) to driving along or across a footway, includes s reference to driving wholly or partly along or across a footway.

Of course, there are a lot of things that the gardai turn a blind eye to and many of the antics of cyclists in particular are routinely ignored, but cycling on a footpath(/"footway") is illegal so clearly you can be penalised if a garda decides that they wish to enforce that particular law on the day that they see you.

It's not just a question of legality though, it's a question of whether you pose a danger to others by cycling on the footpath. The level of risk depends on a number of factors but perhaps one of the biggest ones is whether you are cycling past houses while on the footpath. Many of the kids in my housing estate, for example, have absolutely no road sense and will casually run across the road in front of bikes and cars alike (it's a surprise to me that over the course of several years I have personally seen only two incidents of a child lying under a blanket on a road or footpath in my estate having apparently been hit by a car). However, even the kids with apparently good road sense will happily run/skate/cycle straight out of their driveways onto the footpath without looking - it'd be hard to make the argument to a child that they should treat the footpath outside their house as being a busy and potentially dangerous thoroughfare, because it shouldn't be but cycling on the footpath outside a run of houses risks making it just that. That's obviously just one example of a scenario where cycling on the footpath is dangerous, there are many others.

The point is that, as an adult, you have to acknowledge that cycling on the footpath poses dangers to others even if you take steps such as slowing down to reduce those risks. Ignoring that fact doesn't make the risks go away. So, if you are going to cycle on the footpath do so in the knowledge that while you may now feel safe from the dangers posed to you while on the road you have turned yourself into one of the sources of danger for pedestrians. Given that you have the choice of walking with your bike on the footpath, why not take that option as the most effective means of minimising the risks you pose to other users of the footpath?

enas

doozerie wrote: »

it'd be hard to make the argument to a child that they should treat the footpath outside their house as being a busy and potentially dangerous thoroughfare, because it shouldn't be but cycling on the footpath outside a run of houses risks making it just that.

With all my respect, isn't that a bit melodramatic? I mean, this post is even more detailed than your first one. Have you had any personal experience?

I don't argue the illegality of it, and would surely urge people not to cycle on footpaths, but come on! You can cycle on a footpath in such a way that no one's bothered. As a matter of fact, there are so many countries where this is common sight and I don't think children there are confined to playing inside their house...

doozerie

enas wrote: »

With all my respect, isn't that a bit melodramatic? I mean, this post is even more detailed than your first one. Have you had any personal experience?

Melodramatic? No, simply a statement of fact. Put a cyclist on a footpath and you increase the risks for pedestrians who have no reason to expect to have to allow for the presence of something that moves faster than the average pedestrian. For example, do you look both ways before stepping out onto the pavement outside your house? 'Cos if there is someone cycling on it then you really should.

As for personal experience, yes I've had personal experience of cyclists on pavements nearly colliding with me. I've also had personal experience of being the cyclist on a footpath - I used to justify it to myself by telling myself that I was cycling slowly enough and was an experienced enough cyclist to avoid all collisions but at a certain point I realised that I was really just being an arse and that I had no right to subject others to my being lazy and selfish.

So sure, it's possible to cycle on the footpath without causing someone harm but no matter how careful you are you are relying on a certain amount of luck to avoid a collision. Why create that scenario when you can simply get off the bike and walk beside it for those stretches of road that you deem too dangerous to cycle?

BostonB

If its dangerous and illegal. How when they make a path shared between a cycle lane and pedestrians, does it become safe and legal due to some paint? That makes no sense.

Lumen

doozerie wrote: »

Of course, there are a lot of things that the gardai turn a blind eye to and many of the antics of cyclists in particular are routinely ignored, but cycling on a footpath(/"footway") is illegal so clearly you can be penalised if a garda decides that they wish to enforce that particular law on the day that they see you.

FYI: in the next round of legislation which is due to remove the mandatory cycle lane rule, all references to "footpath" and "footway" have been replaced by the term "footpad" for consistency and ease of comprehension.

doozerie

BostonB wrote: »

If its dangerous and illegal. How when they make a path shared between a cycle lane and pedestrians, does it become safe and legal due to some paint? That makes no sense.

Well, in my view cycle lanes and safety (of cyclists) are often mutually exclusive anyway, and shared footpaths/cycle lanes are typically even worse (they are detrimental to the safety of both cyclists and pedestrians) so I share your view that they make no sense.

Cookie_Monster

Lumen wrote: »

all references to "footpath" and "footway" have been replaced by the term "footpad" for consistency and ease of comprehension.

We're going to turn all footpaths in petty criminals? :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footpad

BostonB

They are useful if they clear traffic out of your way, or allow you somewhere where normal traffic can't go. But the whole road/cycle lane interface is done so badly here that it often doesn't work at all. Also it gives cyclists and drivers that the bad idea in their head that the cyclist should be in the cycle lane all the time.

But its impossible to turn right across a 3 lane road from a cycle lane on the left. You have to leave the cycle lane and like a car, get into lane early and ease your way across. The same applies on a roundabout and turning right in many situations. Taking up the space of a car and holding traffic behind you. But most people don't get this.

Lumen

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055434174