Do we have the power to renegotiate ?

Brabazone

After many months of denial by the government we now know that we stand on the brink of direct European intervention in the Irish financial crisis. Faced with the inevitable do you think there is room for negotiation?. As the EU tries to stabilize the markets with a cash injection into the Irish banks, have we not a degree of power to dictate the terms of financial stimulus.

We all know how we have got to this point "the property market". We were paying way over the odds compared to todays market prices. As it stands the majority of home owner are now looking at upwards of 25%-30% reduction in the value of their home. With this in mind, is now not the time to renegotiate with the banks biased on the current market value. On Monday night I watched Vincent Brown, one of his guest was employed by the courts to broker agreements for people with mortgage arrears. She pointed out that in recent months people have begun to purposely default on their montages because of the current market value of homes in Ireland. These people are aware that their credit status will be reinstated in five years and by this time the true value of property will be reflected at which stage they can renter the market.

So with all that said is now not the time to negotiate a deal with the EU while we still have a degree of power. What we have to remember is that most of the money our banks owe are to German banks and they must take some of the responsibly. I'm not saying that we should let people off the hook, what I am suggesting is a reduction to give people breathing space. It is not the fault of the Irish people that the banks and builders acted so irresponsibly and drove the property bubble. People should be given some glimmer of hope for the future. How many billions would we save by doing this and in-turn what could we do with that kind of money to get the county on the road to recovery. Or, are we doomed to repay a loan that could destroy our country?

Permabear

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ArtSmart

As i've said in the bailout threads and other threads, there is no 'renegotiation' option.
On what basis could there be?
Let the two characters below illustrate this. (BH=bond Holders)

Eire: Er, lads, any chance of you reducing those repayments, or amount to be repaid?

BH: Nien!

Eire: Aw go on.

BH: Nien!

Eire: Aw go on

BH: Nien! Ve haf bills to pay as vell, you know.

Eire: Awww. go ooonnnn.

BH: Nien!

Eire: Right well then I'm giving yis nuthin.

BH: Fine. Zat is your privilege.

Eire: I mean it.

BH: Fine.

Eire: Er, so we're cool then yeah? I mean if I default an all, I mean there's no hard feelings, yeah? I mean, I could tap you for a few more bob down the road, yeah? In case I need food n stuff? Yeah? Cos like i've only a fridge half full of goodies at the mo. Bout a months worth.

BH: HA!

Eire: Oh. I'm seeing that as a maybe?

BH: HA!!

Eire: Oh. Right, well, I'll just ask one of your mates.

BH: HA!

Eire: What?

BH: You fool Eire. Don't you think all my friends vill know how you stiffed me? Do you really think zey will give someone like you money?

Eire: Hey dude, not everyone's as hard-assed as you man. Besides, there's always the pawn brokers...

BH: Ha! Yes. There is always the pawn brokers. Gut day Eire. I will expect this month's check on mine desk in a hour.

Eire watches him go. He takes a potato out of his pocket, looks at it, puts in back in.

Eire: (sotto voce) Might need that for later...

Buford T Justice

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Some of that responsibility lies with the government if you ask me, they were the ones pushing the people to take on the mortgages because we were rich, rich, rich!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BluntGuy

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Some of that responsibility lies with the government if you ask me, they were the ones pushing the people to take on the mortgages because we were rich, rich, rich!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is true, but before people signed up to buy overpriced Semi-D's or McMansions they should've engaged their McBrains and thought "hang on a minute, am I actually getting a good deal here? Can I actually afford this?"

Yes there was pressure put on people, yes the government did little to help with rising rent costs and yes people were sold the lie that their property could be worth XX% more in however many years time, yes the media propagated it, but there are two things to consider:

(a) They were not forced into it.

(b) Taking out a mortgage is essentially taking a risk and hoping for some reward.

So in essence many (not all, but many) people were buying into the same kind of game that the big boys were, just on a far smaller scale. It's convenient to blame the bankers and the government, and yes, no one can predict when they're going to lose their job, I sympathise with people on that level. Absolutely do.

But like, it was common knowledge that property prices were getting ridiculously inflated and that the banks were scrambling around to find new suckers customers to take out mortgages they probably couldn't afford, otherwise we wouldn't have had all those schemes and ads aimed at first time buyers, trying to get them on the property ladder before they were ready.

So yes, I do sympathise with all those who are stuck with overpriced mortgages, I am galled that it is the big boys who are getting bailed out. No one should be getting a bail out, but if someone has to, then surely the citizens of the country should come first. The state does at least owe them the truth about those years... but nothing else.

Buford T Justice

BluntGuy wrote: »

That is true, but before people signed up to buy overpriced Semi-D's or McMansions they should've engaged their McBrains and thought "hang on a minute, am I actually getting a good deal here? Can I actually afford this?"

Yes there was pressure put on people, yes the government did little to help with rising rent costs and yes people were sold the lie that their property could be worth XX% more in however many years time, yes the media propagated it, but there are two things to consider:

(a) They were not forced into it.

(b) Taking out a mortgage is essentially taking a risk and hoping for some reward.

So in essence many (not all, but many) people were buying into the same kind of game that the big boys were, just on a far smaller scale. It's convenient to blame the bankers and the government, and yes, no one can predict when they're going to lose their job, I sympathise with people on that level. Absolutely do.

But like, it was common knowledge that property prices were getting ridiculously inflated and that the banks were scrambling around to find new suckers customers to take out mortgages they probably couldn't afford, otherwise we wouldn't have had all those schemes and ads aimed at first time buyers, trying to get them on the property ladder before they were ready.

So yes, I do sympathise with all those who are stuck with overpriced mortgages, I am galled that it is the big boys who are getting bailed out. No one should be getting a bail out, but if someone has to, then surely the citizens of the country should come first. The state does at least owe them the truth about those years... but nothing else.

I don't agree to an extent. Sure, no one twisted your arm to buy a property but there was very little choice but to buy overpriced tin cans. The Government sat idly by and allowed the house prices to explode, they were constantly telling the people that they wouldn't go down in value, and that you should buy buy buy. There was a huge amount of pressure put on people. When I went for my mortgage, I only wanted €115, but I was told that I could easily have had 200K, no problem at all. The banks were pushing to get you to take as much as possible.

In terms of what people could afford, you went to the banks with your earnings and they told you what you could afford. Sure common sense needs to be engaged here, but when you are constantly told something you start to believe it after a while.

Personally, I think I am in negative equity, but the house I bought was so cheap, I'll have devalued by little enough, and I'm not going to go broke trying to pay for it.

IMO, most people are sheep and generally go with the masses on everything, which is why a lot of people were hoodwinked, "shur didn't yer man down the road get a load of cash and is in a big house, I can do that too". The Government didn't care, and the regulator was nowhere to be seen. Whilst I agree that people do have to take a certain amount of responsibility, its clearly obvious that we are being left with all of it. We are the ones out of jobs, we are the ones not able to pay our bills, we are the ones losing our homes.
All the government have done to help us is add carbon taxes to the price of fuel and coal, to make it more difficult to heat your house this winter. Its great that they have grants to insulate your house, but you need money to do that in the first place, and most of us don't have any. Why would they care? They're all on ministerial salaries and can well afford it. Oh, and lets not forget that at least we can all eat cheese for our christmas dinner. :mad::mad:

flutered

the word required is MALIPULATED, yes folks thats the word, people were malipulated, by the goverment, who malipulated the small banks and the people,who were then malipulated by the banks (their advertising of a new future), the big house, the bigger car to sit in the driveway, the 2nd and 3rd house which would service the 1st house and car, then the big banks MALIPULATED the smaller banks, PLUS the schit for brains that passed for a goverment.

NewHillel

flutered wrote: »

the word required is MALIPULATED, yes folks thats the word, people were malipulated, by the goverment, who malipulated the small banks and the people,who were then malipulated by the banks (their advertising of a new future), the big house, the bigger car to sit in the driveway, the 2nd and 3rd house which would service the 1st house and car, then the big banks MALIPULATED the smaller banks, PLUS the schit for brains that passed for a goverment.

There is no evidence that any person, place or thing we malipulated at any time. Indeed, there is strong evidence to suggest that the word itself doesn't exist.

There is also strong evidence that flutered should be slow to level a charge of lying as he is posting demonstrable untruths, himself. (The reality is, of course, he was not lying, only flutered. )