Spots & upstairs ceiling

creedp

Hi

Will shortly be at first fix electrics stage and my wife wants spots in the main bathroom upstairs. However, I don't want the ceiling membrane and insulation compromised by spots. I asked the builder about using a false ceiling and he said you'd need a 150mm false ceiling if going that route. Unfortunately that would make the ceilings very low as they are only std height at present. In any case I only want them in the bathroom and possibly a walk in wardrobe- would it be possible to have a false ceiling in these 2 rooms and not elsewhere or is there any other way that spots can be installed without losing so much ceiling height?

All assistance greatly appreciated!

tred

creedp wrote: »

Hi

Will shortly be at first fix electrics stage and my wife wants spots in the main bathroom upstairs. However, I don't want the ceiling membrane and insulation compromised by spots. I asked the builder about using a false ceiling and he said you'd need a 150mm false ceiling if going that route. Unfortunately that would make the ceilings very low as they are only std height at present. In any case I only want them in the bathroom and possibly a walk in wardrobe- would it be possible to have a false ceiling in these 2 rooms and not elsewhere or is there any other way that spots can be installed without losing so much ceiling height?

All assistance greatly appreciated!

I believe you can get air tight spots, so then what you need to do is see is it possible to repair the membrane afterwards fromt he attic down?. might be worth making a call on that to the guy why did the membrane. Do you need the spots!!. Its a lot of money to spend on a membrane and then start puncturing holes in for spot lights!

paddy147

creedp wrote: »

Hi

Will shortly be at first fix electrics stage and my wife wants spots in the main bathroom upstairs. However, I don't want the ceiling membrane and insulation compromised by spots. I asked the builder about using a false ceiling and he said you'd need a 150mm false ceiling if going that route. Unfortunately that would make the ceilings very low as they are only std height at present. In any case I only want them in the bathroom and possibly a walk in wardrobe- would it be possible to have a false ceiling in these 2 rooms and not elsewhere or is there any other way that spots can be installed without losing so much ceiling height?

All assistance greatly appreciated!

You dont need a false ceiling.

IP rated spot ligts (used for bathrooms and outdoors) and also you can buy spot light "cans",that sit over/above the light,and then you can still insulate around the can.

I did this in my main bathroom and ensuite (Robus chrome IP rated spots and cans) and its perfect.

creedp

paddy147 wrote: »

You dont need a false ceiling.

IP rated spot ligts (used for bathrooms and outdoors) and also you can buy spot light "cans",that sit over/above the light,and then you can still insulate around the can.

I did this in my main bathroom and ensuite (Robus chrome IP rated spots and cans) and its perfect.

Thanks Paddy - that's a relief for me because I was going to lose the battle on to have/have not spots. I'll have a look at IP spots and can. I vaguely remember seeing the 'can' issue discussed before and I think someone mentioned using upside down ceramic flower pots as an alternative. Does this ring a bell with anyone?

@ tred - I know it seems silly to be worried about airtightenness and then to puncture the membrane - but c'est la vie Im afraid, we all have different worries in life I suppose.

bty I know its off topic and Mods I'll open up a new thread if you feel its more appropriate but when seeking to make a ceiling airtight is it better to lay down your quilt insulation between joists, then apply an airtightness layer such as polythene to the bottom of the joists, then attach the composite plaster board or alternatively place the insulation between the joists then apply PIR sheets to joists and tape the joins and then apply plaster board?

Thanks again

L driver

Hello,
Cut 2 pieces of ply the depth of your joist, from waste, and to length to fit between joists. Place one either side of the spot and fix and tape/silicone. Then cut another to make a lid to fit on top, make good also. Cheap and very effective.

paddy147

L driver wrote: »

Hello,
Cut 2 pieces of ply the depth of your joist, from waste, and to length to fit between joists. Place one either side of the spot and fix and tape/silicone. Then cut another to make a lid to fit on top, make good also. Cheap and very effective.

Thats a serious and potential fire hazzard then,with regards to heat build up.

No way I would do that.:eek:

L driver

Paddy,
what's the difference between your bought can and my homemade one? As far as I know all new spots don't give off heat like the old ones:cool:

paddy147

L driver wrote: »

Paddy,
what's the difference between your bought can and my homemade one? As far as I know all new spots don't give off heat like the old ones:cool:

The ceiling light cans are made of alloy/metal and dont catch fire,like a piece of ply and sticky tape can potentially catch fire.

Have you ever tried to hold a normal spot light bulb when its on for a while,even putting your hand near it you can feel the amount of heat comming off of it.

Put your hand on it and you will have very nasty burn marks in your skin/hand.

I replaced all my spot light bulbs with Philips 3W LED bulbs for the 2 very reasons above.Also the amount of electrictiy these things use up is shocking,so LEDs all the way for me now.

russtini

I asked similar question the other day under electrical here

L driver

paddy147 wrote: »

The ceiling light cans are made of alloy/metal and dont catch fire,like a piece of ply and sticky tape can potentially catch fire.

Have you ever tried to hold a normal spot light bulb when its on for a while,even putting your hand near it you can feel the amount of heat comming off of it.

Put your hand on it and you will have very nasty burn marks in your skin/hand.

I replaced all my spot light bulbs with Philips 3W LED bulbs for the 2 very reasons above.Also the amount of electrictiy these things use up is shocking,so LEDs all the way for me now.

Paddy,
would assume everyone with their head out of the sand is using 3w LEDs, especially in a new build, the old spots were a disaster. My upside down box is pretty big(6" clear on all sides) and stuck with intumesant mastic, have seen electricians place insulation on top of these LED spots, so I don't think my box is a fire hazard.

bravojohnny

As far as I know them 3w LEDs do not provide anywhere near the equavilent lighting levels of a standard 35 / 50w tungsten halogen lamp.

Also they do not provide them same colour rendering (which is a major issue in lighting).

LED replacement lamps are a waste of time in my opinion (you would have to 'pepper' the ceiling with them to get adequate lighting).

What you need to use if you want to go the LED route is buy an LED downlighter fitting.

These are quite expensive 150e approx. each for a 7w fitting,
but they are the closest I have seen (in terms of output & colouring) to a standard halogen downlighter.

paddy147

bravojohnny wrote: »

As far as I know them 3w LEDs do not provide anywhere near the equavilent lighting levels of a standard 35 / 50w tungsten halogen lamp.

Also they do not provide them same colour rendering (which is a major issue in lighting).

LED replacement lamps are a waste of time in my opinion (you would have to 'pepper' the ceiling with them to get adequate lighting).

What you need to use if you want to go the LED route is buy an LED downlighter fitting.

These are quite expensive 150e approx. each for a 7w fitting,
but they are the closest I have seen (in terms of output & colouring) to a standard halogen downlighter.

You are so far off the mark with your information thats its laughable yet shocking to read,honestly.Where do you be shopping with prices like that???:eek:

You dont need an LED downlighter fitting to use an LED down light bulb.

The quality of the new generation of LED lights are very very good indeed.Technology has moved on and up very fast indeed.Prices are coming donw alot too.
The LED bulbs I use giove a nice warm white.Light spread and output is very very good too.
And you dont need to pepper the ceiling with them to get good lighting.

You need to look around more at the new generation of LED downlight bulbs.

I changed over from the old/normal 50w down light bulb to LED,s.

I have Philips dimmable LED 3W bulbs in my living room,kitchen,2nd living area,ensuite and main bathroom.

Couldnt be happier with them.:D

They are as bright at the normal 50w down light bulbs,yet they use a mere 3w of energy,are nice warm white (homely feeling) and they are fully dimmable too and have a nice spread of light.No heat from them at all.Oh and they last for 15 years.

bravojohnny

I have two friends that are lighting desgners & one also has a masters degree in lighting & that is what they have told me.

I have seen the different products & I can asure you that my information is 100% correct.

What you are using are 'LED replacement lamps' for halogen downlighters totally different than the LED downlighter I am talking about which comes complete with driver & LED 'lamp' these are the way forward (prices will drop in time).

Have you ever done lux calculations with the LED replacement lamps?
I have & they are no where near the LED downlighters I am talking about (in terms of output).

Also the colours of the replacement lamps are not the same as halogen.

So maybe its you who should have a look around & talk to the professionals ( & by that I don't mean electricians or suppliers of lamps).

paddy147

bravojohnny wrote: »

I have two friends that are lighting desgners & one also has a masters degree in lighting & that is what they have told me.

I have seen the different products & I can asure you that my information is 100% correct.

What you are using are 'LED replacement lamps' for halogen downlighters totally different than the LED downlighter I am talking about which comes complete with driver & LED 'lamp' these are the way forward (prices will drop in time).

Have ever done lux calculations with them LED replacement lamps?
I have & they are no where near the LED downlighters I am talking about.

Also the colours of the replacement lamps are not the same as halogen.

So maybe its you who should have a look around & talk to the professionals ( & by that I don't mean electricians or suppliers of lamps).

Well you are the one who came on here saying that the 3W LEDs were no where near the same as a 35W normal bulb.and they dont provide the same colour at all.

But they are and do in fact,in my case with the Philips 3W LEDs are just as bright as a 50w bulb,so much brighter than a 35w bulb then..


Colours of the Philips dimmable LEDs that I am using are same mate,sorry to tell you that,no visual difference at all.Verified by 2 different electricians and an architect/structural engineer too.Then myself and my missus,so all 5 of us arent wrong or colour blind.

You dont need a complete LED unit to use an LED bulb mate,LED bulb is LED bulb and thats it.

And even that price you quoted is mad money for an LED unit,they are alot cheaper than that these days.You need to shop around more.

My experience is based on trying several types of LED lights in various parts of my house over a week long period day and night time with the electricians and the architect/structural engineer and also my missus.I am very very happy with the Philips LEDs,even the Robus LEDs were and are a lovely warm white and just as bright to look at as a normal 50w light,had the same amount of over all light spread too.All 5 of us could not any see any visual difference.And this was based on putting up 4-5 LEDs in an area,not just sticking up 1 LED and judging it that way.
But thats my experience anyway.
Philips LEDs all the way for me now.:)

bravojohnny

You don't understand what I am saying, maybe I am not explaing it correctly. So I will try again:

LED replacement lamps are mostly used in retro fitting. ie you already have downlighters installed & you want ro replace the lamp with an LED, so you use the LED replacement lamp (like the one you have used).

However indoing so its a bit like doing things backwards you are putting a lamp in a fitting which is not designed to take such a lamp (hence the low output). You can check the box the LED lamp came in for its output (measured in lumens) & I can asure you it is not the same as a halogen lamp or the LED fitting I told you about. Also check the colour rendering on the box (measured in kelvin).

As I have previously said I know two lighting designers, I was in their office a few weeks back & they had several of the latest LED replacement lamps lighting against a wall & you could see they were not of the same output or colour of a halogen & the LED fitting.

The LED fitting they swear by (& they have researched this intensively by ordering in samples & testing them) they even went out of the country to have a look at the company that makes them.

They are the experts & I am only telling you what I have seen & been told. Its there job to know the best products.

paddy147

Well all I can say is that,myself,my missus,the architect/structural engineer and 2 electricians all must be absolutely blind and also colour blind too.Even when 4 LED bulbs were compared in the ceiling beside 4 normal 50w bulbs and them dimmed up and down and left on all evening/night long..So we all must be totally blind,especially the 2 electricians.
You can put any spin you like on it,but,the LED bulb itself is still an LED bulb,its an LED and thats it,whether its for an LED downlighter unit or a normal unit,its an LED bullb that is used in both units.

Sorry to the OP for going off topic.

I,ll leave it at that.

Regards.

bravojohnny

Look Im not trying to knock you, I am simply giving my & the opinion of trained professionals advice on lighting. The fitting i was suggesting does not have an LED lamp as such. The fitting comes complete with the LED in it (just like if you buy an led wall light there is no lamp, the LED is in the fitting & cannot be taken out). I can send you a spec. sheet of the fitting if you want?

Anyway back to the original post (apologies for going off topic), I myself am an architectural technician & I have tried to specify air tight fittings for clients. I have not come across any (as of yet). I did find a company who claim to make airtight downlighter covers & to be honest I wouldnt recommend them from the sample I got (very dogey).

Be careful using metal bowls etc. for air tight hoods as these are probably too small. There needs to be a large area (you would be surprised, it could be 10 times the size of a fitting) of air to be provided to allow the fitting cool suffeciently. Also dispite what people think even LED lamps or fittings do give off alot of heat (not as much as halogen lamps), thats why they have little 'fins' on the lamp & they do need alot of circulation air to cool.

I would not use your own variation of an air tight hood they can be a potentional fire hazard (ie. a plywood one).

Also if you use a metal or ceramic one that does not provide adequate air space for the fitting to cool, than more likely what will happen if the fitting gets to hot the lamp life (even LED) is reduced significantly.

My advise, contact the manufacturer of the downlight & ask them what they would recommend.

creedp

I've read the comments above with interest and as usual its not that simple!!

@bravojohnny - I'd appreciate if you would send me the spec for the lights you referred to. Are these operated from a transformer or directly via 230v cable? My builder's electrician does not like transformers as they get hot and are a fireshazard - he wants to install 230v fittings everywhere. Does this rule out LED lamp units and require me to use GU10 fittings with LED bulds?

Thanks for comments