What will happen if labour and fine gael get power?

Bob Z

I know FG and Labour werent in power the recession happened and they can't be blamed in any way but when they get into power won't they be making the same cuts that FF are going to make? Are people people expecting more? Or will they be just glad to get rid of FF?

Liam Byrne

Personally speaking, I don't believe a word FF say, because their main aim is to deflect from the fact that they caused this crisis.

I might actually believe another party.

I also believe that other parties would be more interested in doing things fairly and correctly; e.g. not hitting us with unpayable €2,000 a year water and property taxes while letting former banker mates and high-flyers off scot-free.

I could be wrong, but I'd prefer to find out before giving up on this country completely.

If I'm wrong, then I'll have definitive proof that living in this country is soul-destroying and not worth the hassle.

Dannyboy83

As with Liam, this is potentially the last dance with Ireland for a lot of us, including myself.

If FG cannot make a fairer society than the one we have now, then there is no reason to stay in Ireland and help preserve the current oligarchy/apartheid.

Time will tell.

Bob Z

Bob Z wrote: »

I know FG and Labour werent in power the recession happened and they can't be blamed in any way but when they get into power won't they be making the same cuts that FF are going to make? Are people people expecting more? Or will they be just glad to get rid of FF?

They can't be blamed in any way? Then what was the point of them going into work during the time that FF were in power, if they had no influence over the proceedings? Personally, while not directly responsible for the mess like FF is, all the political groups had a part in driving this economy into the ground.

As for what would change with them in power.... I don't think anything will.

DublinWriter

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If FG cannot make a fairer society than the one we have now, then there is no reason to stay in Ireland and help preserve the current oligarchy/apartheid.

As much as I despise the whole Tea Party ethos, at least it's a grass-roots movement started by people who feel disenfranchised by the current political climate.

In this country? We're like rats serving notice on the captain that we'll disembark unless the route gets a bit more favourable.

It doesn't occur to the vast majority of people here to start their own political movements because a) it's far too much bother, I've work tomorrow and football practise in the evening and then herself wants the living room repainted for Christmas and b) see a.

Bob Z

Deleted User wrote: »

They can't be blamed in any way? Then what was the point of them going into work during the time that FF were in power, if they had no influence over the proceedings? Personally, while not directly responsible for the mess like FF is, all the political groups had a part in driving this economy into the ground.

As for what would change with them in power.... I don't think anything will.

Well they have their on the opposition benches but they weren't making the decisions

Though too to fair they didn't seem to calling for spending to be reined in at any point

jimmynokia

it wont really matter we all shafted for the next go knows how many years

skelliser

When we get bailed out, find out exactly the state of affairs and get rid of FF i beleive everyone will be happier and ready to face the difficult challenges.
At least we will know where we stand as opposed to the drip drip lies we get from FF.
Once FF get the bloodbath they deserve in the upcoming election and we get a new gov. with a new mandate then i beleive the recovery will begin properly.

The longer FF hang on the longer we have to wait for a recovery to begin because no one has any faith in them anymore. They have to go.

galwayrush

Deleted User wrote: »

They can't be blamed in any way? Then what was the point of them going into work during the time that FF were in power, if they had no influence over the proceedings? Personally, while not directly responsible for the mess like FF is, all the political groups had a part in driving this economy into the ground.

As for what would change with them in power.... I don't think anything will.

How can they have been responsible while in opposition?

Rebelheart

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

As with Liam, this is potentially the last dance with Ireland for a lot of us, including myself.

If FG cannot make a fairer society than the one we have now, then there is no reason to stay in Ireland and help preserve the current oligarchy/apartheid.

Time will tell.

A very despondent post which I don't really want to agree with. Reading Brian Hayes's ideas for the education system, specifically a commitment to continue the state subsidy of €100 million per annum to fee-paying schools, a "fairer society" seems to be far from an aim of the Fine Gael party.

gandalf

Whoever is elected into power will have the mandate to make the difficult and painful decisions that have to be made. They will also have a great opportunity and responsibility to try to shape a better society and future for everyone in Ireland.

galwayrush

galwayrush wrote: »

How can they have been responsible while in opposition?

Because they made their own demands for spending on the government... They made their criticisms clear when the government wasn't spending enough on education, welfare, the health system, the roads etc. In fact, most of the time the opposition was crying out for more and more money to be invested in this country (And they're still calling for money to be spent in the face of all the problems occurring.) . Just because they weren't the ones in the driving seat doesn't mean that they weren't/aren't partly responsible for the state of the country.

Dannyboy83

Rebelheart wrote: »

A very despondent post which I don't really want to agree with. Reading Brian Hayes's ideas for the education system, specifically a commitment to continue the state subsidy of €100 million per annum to state schools, a "fairer society" seems to be far from an aim of the Fine Gael party.

I wrote about it in a bit more detail here if you are interested in why I feel like that.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68968891&postcount=49
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68967571&postcount=23


You are certainly not the only person who has raised objection to Brian Hayes's ideas, however, I view that a small issue when put in perspective.

Batiste

Most people don't think the party leaders opposition(FG,Labour,the energy efficient unwashed) could have any hand in this recession but thats what they want you to think..

Cavehill Red

Rebelheart wrote: »

A very despondent post which I don't really want to agree with. Reading Brian Hayes's ideas for the education system, specifically a commitment to continue the state subsidy of €100 million per annum to state schools, a "fairer society" seems to be far from an aim of the Fine Gael party.

Yeah, obviously a fairer society means screwing Protestants to the wall. :rolleyes:

galwayrush

Deleted User wrote: »

Because they made their own demands for spending on the government... They made their criticisms clear when the government wasn't spending enough on education, welfare, the health system, the roads etc. In fact, most of the time the opposition was crying out for more and more money to be invested in this country (And they're still calling for money to be spent in the face of all the problems occurring.) . Just because they weren't the ones in the driving seat doesn't mean that they weren't/aren't partly responsible for the state of the country.

They can shout all they want, unless FF gave in and agreed to what they were saying, it doesn't count for anything. The people in power call all the shots.

Bob Z

Batiste wrote: »

Most people don't think the party leaders opposition(FG,Labour,the energy efficient unwashed) could have any hand in this recession but thats what they want you to think..

What do you mean?

galwayrush

Bob Z wrote: »

What do you mean?

Something to do with the typical FF strategy of trying to lay the blame on everyone else but themselves.:rolleyes:

Lapin

I don't think FG or Labour will make one damn of a difference in relation to the economic mess the country is in.

I think its beyond the ability of any political party to sort out the mess we're in.

However, they're not as tainted with the vested interests that got us into this mess in the same way that FF are.

After 14 years on the opposition benches it would be interesting to see what they can come up with. But I wouldn't hold out too much hope for them.

They don't have a magic wand.

The International Monetary Fund or European Central Bank will be running our finances in a couple of years and it won't matter a jot who's arse is siting in the Taoiseach's Merc.

The real decisions relating to our country will be addressed in Brussels, Strasbourg, Frankfurt and the boardrooms of New York and Canary Wharf. (they already are.)

Meanwhile our elected parliamentarians can continue to exchange hissy fits and soundbites in the Dáil chamber over important things like Stag Hunting and traffic cones.

skelliser

As far as im concerned the resession only started in august this year with the annoncement of the bailout for anglo. This is only the begining.



Listen, the gov keep going on about the gov deficit, we are spending more then we are taking in etc. Thats only part of the problem.



The big major problem is the banks. They are insolvent. Thats why the markets are spooked. They know they are fecked and know we cant support them.

There is still a chance to turn this around.

The new gov. need to move quickly by either getting the bailout or resinding the gaurantee. They will go with the bailout. Although i beleive the bailout will hapeen in the next week or so.

Next they need to move quickly and set out an agenda to deal with the impending mortgage disaster. Whether you like it or not and i dont we are going to have to bail people who are in arrears in their mortgages. I dont beleive this has to do with negative equity just arrears. If we dont then they will drag us down into a economic disaster of which the last 2 years will pale in comparison.

Seriously guys, this is a ****storm of epic proportions, we really need to set aside the nimbyism and the keeping up with the jones if we are to save our country. Cause if we dont face this problem now we are ****ed. Truely ****ed.
I beleive the only party who will do that is labour.

Fianna Fail are whats keeping us from dealing with this issue and are hindering any recover by staying in power.

Clown Shoes

skelliser wrote: »

As far as im concerned the resession only started in august this year with the annoncement of the bailout for anglo. This is only the begining.



Listen, the gov keep going on about the gov deficit, we are spending more then we are taking in etc. Thats only part of the problem.



The big major problem is the banks. They are insolvent. Thats why the markets are spooked. They know they are fecked and know we cant support them.

There is still a chance to turn this around.

The new gov. need to move quickly by either getting the bailout or resinding the gaurantee. They will go with the bailout. Although i beleive the bailout will hapeen in the next week or so.

Next they need to move quickly and set out an agenda to deal with the impending mortgage disaster. Whether you like it or not and i dont we are going to have to bail people who are in arrears in their mortgages. I dont beleive this has to do with negative equity just arrears. If we dont then they will drag us down into a economic disaster of which the last 2 years will pale in comparison.

Seriously guys, this is a ****storm of epic proportions, we really need to set aside the nimbyism and the keeping up with the jones if we are to save our country. Cause if we dont face this problem now we are ****ed. Truely ****ed.
I beleive the only party who will do that is labour.

Fianna Fail are whats keeping us from dealing with this issue and are hindering any recover by staying in power.

Labour/FG, give me break.
1982-87 tells you all you need to know about that lot.
Most of us on this forum seem to think that asking for help is a bad move. What our current government proposes in the next budget can´t be much worse than what the EC/ECB/IMF/EU might ask us to put in place. Take the money from the ESF, SHUT OUR MOUTHS AND GET ON WITH IT. It´s only a matter of time before the Spanish and Potuguese are in the same position and it will take a lot more than the ESF to help them. Get help while we have the opportunity.

skelliser

Clown Shoes wrote: »

Labour/FG, give me break.
1982-87 tells you all you need to know about that lot.

Well done, Completly ignoring the 94-97 FG/LAB gov which started much of the current boom we enjoyed.
oh and btw did you realise that FF policies in the 1977 election destroyed the country and it was up to FG to clean up the mess.
This isnt the first time FF have bankrupted the country you know!!
Nice bit of revisionism tho!!


Sure lets have 13 more years of Fianna Fail

The party which presided over and destroyed the greatest economic boom in the history of the state.

Clown Shoes

skelliser wrote: »

Well done, Completly ignoring the 94-97 FG/LAB gov which started much of the current boom we enjoyed.
oh and btw did you realise that FF policies in the 1977 election destroyed the country and it was up to FG to clean up the mess.
This isnt the first time FF have bankrupted the country you know!!
Nice bit of revisionism tho!!


Sure lets have 13 more years of Fianna Fail

The party which presided over and destroyed the greatest economic boom in the history of the state.

Ah yeah, sure lets hand over 100 odd mill to AIB for ICI and not take a shareholding . There you go, AIB. Oh thanks Garret, now about that loan you have from us...talk about fiscal stupidity...b4stards had PAYE tax rates as high as 65%.

As for the boom, don´t kid yourself. We got lucky, yanks saw an opportunity and shovelled money into the country. Initiatives like free education worked for a while but even the electorate saw through that and gave Brennan a big kick up the jaxie at the election in 97.

Doesn´t matter any more who we vote for, Merkel and her crew run the show now. We should be thankful, sight of those self righteous blueshirt morons in Leinster House is an embarassment.

Deutschland, Deutschland uber alles...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2IaFaJrmno

Cavehill Red

Fianna Fail spin is getting more incoherent by the day.

rasper

Bob Z wrote: »

I know FG and Labour werent in power the recession happened and they can't be blamed in any way but when they get into power won't they be making the same cuts that FF are going to make? Are people people expecting more? Or will they be just glad to get rid of FF?

The whole point of having an opposition in the Daíl is to hold the government
to account, they failed on every count,
and FG and Labour are the dominant seat holders in the local governments and not many would be pround of their achievements in the planning fiascos that led to our collapse.
Don't expect much to change by voting for any of the big 3

sparkling sea

rasper wrote: »

The whole point of having an opposition in the Daíl is to hold the government
to account, they failed on every count,

Don't expect much to change by voting for any of the big 3

I wouldn't expect much however I would expect not to be lied to as much by a FG/Lab gov, although only time would tell if this is the case.

I would expect a government that isn't as cocky and complacent as Fianna Fail - its only human that they think they are all powerful, they have been in government too long. We did keep voting FF into power despite tribunals and inquires.

It probably wouldn't be a bad thing if the IMF did come in and take over because as a country we are morally ethically and culturally bankrupt - cute whore mentality has gone too far in Ireland - we need as a people a good kick up the arse. I know we need to look out for and protect the weakest in our society - but we don't. People generally either get caught in a poverty trap or abuse the system, the pot thats left for people who are truly unable to help themselves is always abused - cute whore mentality, this is where we excel.

We will never have a great or even anyway good government unless we have high expectations of our politicians - at the moment we expect and in return get nothing.

Our politicians are lethargic and so are we, we all need to change and if we can't do it as a people maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing if change was forced on us. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind

Our system of government really doesn't allow the opposition to hold the government to power in fairness no matter who is in power

Liam Byrne

rasper wrote: »

The whole point of having an opposition in the Daíl is to hold the government
to account, they failed on every count,

How do you hold a government to account when it is so sickeningly corrupt and self-interested that it challenges overdue by-elections in our own courts using our own money ?

Liam Byrne

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How do you hold a government to account when it is so sickeningly corrupt and self-interested that it challenges overdue by-elections in our own courts using our own money ?

Well, answer me this. What is the purpose of the opposition? Why do we have them at all?

Considering we could probably save quite a bit of money by dismissing them all, and only calling on them during the actual elections... Since, they're ineffective at reeling in the government.

Idbatterim

Labour and FG are like chalk and cheese! I really hope in the next election that the several gombeen independents who will use their vote to pass the budget to extract everything they can for their constituency, are resigned to the opposition benches for the rest of their political careers!

Liam Byrne

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, answer me this. What is the purpose of the opposition? Why do we have them at all?

It's a fair question, especially when you have a government that are arrogant enough to give the opposition and the people the two fingers and ignore all advice......until, of course, it dawns on them that they don't have a clue and they ask the opposition for "concensus".

Basically, I don't have the answer. Too much of Irish "opposition" (and indeed government) is stupid slagging matches like the disgraced John O'Donoghue's "revenge" speech where he took an idiotic pot-shot at Gilmore.

That said, the opposition weren't exactly "opposing" when they voted for long holidays and pay rises, and kept the "unvouched expenses" regime, so I don't hold out hope for a MASSIVE change in mindset......but even a little change would be an improvement.

Liam Byrne

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That said, the opposition weren't exactly "opposing" when they voted for long holidays and pay rises, and kept the "unvouched expenses" regime, so I don't hold out hope for a MASSIVE change in mindset......but even a little change would be an improvement.

The fact is that just about every time I've looked at any governmental discussion/session, three quarters of the seats are empty. Is that why they're not responsible? Because they're not there to object?

But I get what you mean.. A change would be an improvement if we get people who care more about the country than their own benefits/privileges, or their own particular district.

PeterIanStaker

What will happen?

Honestly, I dont know. All the promises in the world cant fix things. People are distrustful of with politicians in general, I think. So if another govt has the financial savvy to halt or lessen the financial woes we're in, then fair play to them, but I see no evidence for this.

I must add, however, that I'm biased by my own cynicism and distrust,and I admit that.

johngalway

The country is, if we're being honest here, broke.

So, who ever get's into Government will have to cut.

They have to.

There isn't a silver lining. I wish there was but it doesn't exist.

I would hope they cut as responsibly as possible. I would hope they don't lie to us as FF/Green/PD/Independents have.

IF they do that much I will be satisfied enough. The idea is to get the country back on course, not stick our fingers in our ears, close our eyes, hum a happy tune and continue on as before.

We've been lied to, so, so much.

Don't forget that.

4bn for Anglo.

We've turned a corner?

We never saw it coming :rolleyes:

It's all Lehmans fault.

The next Government has an immensely hard job to do. They will also be unpopular, my hope is that the electorate is mature enough to pause long enough to think why the next Govt have to do the things they will need to do.

The answer, in my opinion is Fianna Fail, The Progressive Democrats, The Green Party and a few Independents.

goose2005

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Yeah, obviously a fairer society means screwing Protestants to the wall. :rolleyes:

The subsidy represents an enormous bag of cash given to Protestants for being Protestants.

bamboozle

Bob Z wrote: »

I know FG and Labour werent in power the recession happened and they can't be blamed in any way but when they get into power won't they be making the same cuts that FF are going to make? Are people people expecting more? Or will they be just glad to get rid of FF?

anything will be a welcome change from the greed, incompetence, corruption, cronyism, nepotism and waste that followed FF for their 12 long years in office.

ISAW

DublinWriter wrote: »

As much as I despise the whole Tea Party ethos, at least it's a grass-roots movement started by people who feel disenfranchised by the current political climate.

No it isnt! Well it is but it isn't! It ius a fundraiser for neoconservative Republicans and is mostly associated with conservative independent or Republican voters.

It doesn't occur to the vast majority of people here to start their own political movements because a) it's far too much bother, I've work tomorrow and football practise in the evening and then herself wants the living room repainted for Christmas

Then they deserve the government they get.

ISAW

johngalway wrote: »

The country is, if we're being honest here, broke.

No it isn't!
Be honest!

The economy is doing fine and expanding.
Exports continue to climb.

The Public sector is what is costing and not producing.

and if the state coffers are not flush it is because they were used to make private debt into public debt because some private concerns were deemed "To big to fail"

If the banks lied then that decision may be reversable.

So, who ever get's into Government will have to cut.

Yup.

They have to.

No they dont. they could make things evern worse or they could dump the debt back on the private sector. But then how would you deal with no money in the banking system?
You would be back in Brian Lenihan's dilemma. Only this time you would have full knowledge of the amounts involved and no way to reverse a decision once made.

There isn't a silver lining. I wish there was but it doesn't exist.

Actually there is!

Construction was artificial but pharmachem, and ITC were and are growing sectors of RDTI.

I would hope they cut as responsibly as possible. I would hope they don't lie to us as FF/Green/PD/Independents have.

Again to be honest they didn't really lie. They were sold a crock from the bankers.
We all were.

IF they do that much I will be satisfied enough. The idea is to get the country back on course, not stick our fingers in our ears, close our eyes, hum a happy tune and continue on as before.

The country is doing ok. The problem is one of debt not of the economy not exporting.

Assume there was ono debt what would the problem be?

to many on the dole? Well that isnt due to Irish people but due to all the unemployed foreign workers. If there is work elsewhere and the dole isnt attractive most will leave.
That's 100,000 of them.
But you can add 50,000 back when we dump that extra public service workers we took on.
Or even 100,000.
But 100,000 doles cost less than 100,000 salaries and pensions.

Id rather see public service pay cut then jobs though. Starting at the top. Then working on down after the top is implemented.

sparkling sea

ISAW wrote: »

No it isn't!
Be honest!

The economy is doing fine and expanding.
Exports continue to climb.

The ecomony is not by any measure doing fine. Although exports are increasing a weak euro has lead to exchange rate competitiveness, and we are coming from a relatively low base now

ISAW wrote: »

The country is doing ok. The problem is one of debt not of the economy not exporting.

Well everything is relative I suppose but the problem is one of debt, high unemployment, a weak infrastructure, and an incompetent Minister for Enterprise and they are only internal factors.

ISAW wrote: »

to may people on the dole Well that isnt due to Irish people but due to all the unemployed foreign workers. If there is work elsewhere and the dole isnt attractive most will leave.
That's 100,000 of them.
But you can add 50,000 back when we dump that extra public service workers we took on.
Or even 100,000.
But 100,000 doles cost less than 100,000 salaries and pensions.

There are 429,553 umemployed people on the live registar, according to your figures 329,553 are Irish

ISAW

ISAW wrote: »

No it isn't!
Be honest!

The economy is doing fine and expanding.
Exports continue to climb.

The Public sector is what is costing and not producing.

But its not only the public sector that has problems. Irish businesses are having extreme problems with financing from the banks, terrible issues getting payment from their customers, and low faith from foreign business/opinion when it comes to their long term viability. Exports may be rising but that's only a single factor, which doesn't stop the continued existing problems in our own economy. (Considering how much of the private sector consists of service industries)

and if the state coffers are not flush it is because they were used to make private debt into public debt because some private concerns were deemed "To big to fail"

If the banks lied then that decision may be reversable.

Ahh well, if that was the only problem things would be much simpler, but its not. Government spending was crazy for long periods of time often to fill their own wallets, or those of their favorites. Too much leeway was given projects which were mismanaged, and were given budgets too large. Simply put, the banks have become the sole focus of blame, but frankly the government has pumped too much money into areas which shouldn't have seen that "investment"

Again to be honest they didn't really lie. They were sold a crock from the bankers.
We all were.

Of course they lied. Look. We complain constantly about the sheer stupidity of FF for screwing the economy up. We had were in an amazingly good position and they still managed to destroy it. They've been caught on just about everything from mismanagement of funds right through to corruption. And we now believe that they were capable to hiding the truth from their fellow politicians who had access to the facts & figures, and had the voices to raise the problems with them?

The country is doing ok. The problem is one of debt not of the economy not exporting.

Assume there was ono debt what would the problem be?

Assume there is no debt? Haha... how could you assume that there was no debt? Can we also assume that Ireland is blessed with copious amounts of valuable raw materials? Can we assume that Ireland has the income to support the investment in all sectors to suit everyone's demands?

This country has severe problems that will take years to recover from. Frankly, this is a good time to fix the inherent problems with our political system and thus prevent this crap from happening again. And it probably will happen again if nothing solid is changed.

to many on the dole? Well that isnt due to Irish people but due to all the unemployed foreign workers. If there is work elsewhere and the dole isnt attractive most will leave.

As will many more of the Irish. Quite a few have already left.

Id rather see public service pay cut then jobs though. Starting at the top. Then working on down after the top is implemented.

I'd rather our politicians set the example and have their benefits & salaries cut back to a respectable level and more in line with what an average Irish person earns. Then, look to cutting back other people's salaries.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

What will happen if labour and fine gael get power?

this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_v468ptuXw

Silentbut

If Fine Gael get into power things will change for the better. It will take a while and yes, hard decisions will still have to be made but this is due to the years and years of financial mismanagement by Fianna Fail.

To "Klaz" how in Gods name can you actually believe the tripe you are spouting. It is not Fine Gaels fault by any stretch of the imagination. During the boom years whenever they tried to make any sort of a substantial proposal they were shot down by a greedy and power thirsty Fianna Fail government.

You ask what the point of the opposition is? you're right, there isn't one. It is a completely dated system, devoid of any real point. That is why Fine Gael are planning to make huge changes to the irish political system. The structure of opposition in irish parliament merely serves to retain a Fianna Fail led govt. for years and years.

As for those who praise Labour. LABOUR IS NOT A MOVEMENT FOR CHANGE. In two interviews i've seen over the last few weeks with Labour canditates that clown Gilmore has talked utter rubbish consistantly. He goes on about how he plans to spend more and more and not cut back on a thing. In our current financial state, that simply is not an option! Yes, hard cuts need to be taken, but only when you can actually believe in the people inflicting them on you.

I am a realist though, that is why I, despite the fact that my colours of blue, urge people to support this years budget. Because if we don't, the country will most definately go bankrupt by March..

Silentbut

Silentbut wrote: »

If Fine Gael get into power things will change for the better. It will take a while and yes, hard decisions will still have to be made but this is due to the years and years of financial mismanagement by Fianna Fail.

To "Klaz" how in Gods name can you actually believe the tripe you are spouting. It is not Fine Gaels fault by any stretch of the imagination. During the boom years whenever they tried to make any sort of a substantial proposal they were shot down by a greedy and power thirsty Fianna Fail government.

Keep your hat on. You can believe that the sub shines out of Fine Gael's rear end if you want, but they haven't done anything to warrant such faith in me. So far, all we have is talk. Unless, you're going to refer back to actions way in the past as justification, and yet how relevant are they really? At the end of the day, regardless of who gets in, we will have to wait for them to do something..

As for my "tripe", where were the demands from Fine Gael to reign in the reckless spending during the boom years? Ahh jesus, there were so many things which Fine Gael could have demanded notice on, and proclaimed to the country about, but didn't. At least not until the economy was already going downhill.