as Gaeilge...?

Irlandesaaa

hey there!!

i was wonderin...would anyone b interested in reading Batman as gaeilge? what about spiderman? ironman, mangas, etc...?
as u may know i'm a manga writer, but i'm plannin to translate famous comics too, for anyone who may be interested
ps.: aye, it's for free...coz it's my hobby.

thanks in advance for your attention
oh, ops: go raibh maith agaibh roimh ré

ztoical

You might be planning to do it for free but I doubt Marvel or DC will let you. Given that Marvel is now owned by Disney you'd have the lawyers on to you pretty quickly. There's also been a massive crackdown on scanlation and fan sub sites recently. You'd prob be ok doing manga, manhwa or bande dessinée that haven't yet been licensed for english translation.

Dan_Solo

Obviously you'd need to talk to a lawyer, but does a translation service contravene copyright? If it's only the text that somebody already owns a copy of then I can't see what the problem is, though distribution of copyright artwork would definitely still be a no-no.

ztoical

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Obviously you'd need to talk to a lawyer, but does a translation service contravene copyright? If it's only the text that somebody already owns a copy of then I can't see what the problem is, though distribution of copyright artwork would definitely still be a no-no.

Yes the text would be copyrighted as it's part of the comic - open any Marvel or DC comic and the copyright information is in the masthead. With regards to comics that have already been translated from another language into say english, the english translation would also be copyrighted as the publisher would have paid a high price for the rights and paid for a professional translator to translate the text. It's not just a case of directly translating word for word, words can have several different translation depending on the context and the language your translating from and to. For example there is no direct word for yes or no in Irish so a translator has to think about the context of the word and the best translation for it...hence why scanlation sites and offical publications can be very different and it's also why publishers have been pushing to shut down a number of scanlation sites recently as they've paid for both the licence and the translation.

If you translate comics that are not licenced in english for sale in Ireland and translate from the original language [say French or Japanese] into Irish, while a legal gray area your less likely to find yourself getting an angry letter from a publisher.

Irlandesaaa

ztoical wrote: »

Yes the text would be copyrighted as it's part of the comic - open any Marvel or DC comic and the copyright information is in the masthead. With regards to comics that have already been translated from another language into say english, the english translation would also be copyrighted as the publisher would have paid a high price for the rights and paid for a professional translator to translate the text. It's not just a case of directly translating word for word, words can have several different translation depending on the context and the language your translating from and to. For example there is no direct word for yes or no in Irish so a translator has to think about the context of the word and the best translation for it...hence why scanlation sites and offical publications can be very different and it's also why publishers have been pushing to shut down a number of scanlation sites recently as they've paid for both the licence and the translation.

If you translate comics that are not licenced in english for sale in Ireland and translate from the original language [say French or Japanese] into Irish, while a legal gray area your less likely to find yourself getting an angry letter from a publisher.

thanks for the advice, i'm not actually sayin i will do it, i'm just considering the possibility instead. I know it's not a simple task to translate copyrighted stuff, for I am a translator and I do charge for translations (as for irish language, i personally think it needs some encouragement to be spoken, so that's why i wouldnt charge in this case). My question here is "would anyone be interested in readin comics in irish?" - it's nothin else than a survey of mine. Thanks again.

ztoical

Irlandesaaa wrote: »

thanks for the advice, i'm not actually sayin i will do it, i'm just considering the possibility instead. I know it's not a simple task to translate copyrighted stuff, for I am a translator and I do charge for translations (as for irish language, i personally think it needs some encouragement to be spoken, so that's why i wouldnt charge in this case). My question here is "would anyone be interested in readin comics in irish?" - it's nothin else than a survey of mine. Thanks again.

There are a number of comics being published in Irish such as RiRa [which include several franco belgian comics] and the Cló Mhaigh Eo series of graphic novels so there is an interest there in some regard but it depends on the material being offered. Both offer Irish comic artists presenting original material while RiRa offers some franco beligian comics but they would be comics that would not currently be published in english.

I assume as your not charging your taking about hosting translations on a website and if it's not original material then copyright plays a massive role. But lets ignore the copyright for a second offering to tranlsate Marvel or DC comics I can't see appealing to many people, even the most hardcore of Irish speakers, it would seem to make more sense to follow RiRa's example of taking comics that aren't currently translated into english and offering them in Irish.

Dan_Solo

ztoical wrote: »

Yes the text would be copyrighted as it's part of the comic - open any Marvel or DC comic and the copyright information is in the masthead.

But if you already own the English text, would a translation infringe that copyright? I can't see how it could.
Put it this way, I could read a French comic with some difficulty, but I'd be translating it into English in my head.
Have I infringed the copyright?

Fysh

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But if you already own the English text, would a translation infringe that copyright? I can't see how it could.
Put it this way, I could read a French comic with some difficulty, but I'd be translating it into English in my head.
Have I infringed the copyright?

The infringement in question happens when you share a copyrighted work without permission.

The argument has been made in the past that if a person translates a copyrighted work into a language in which the original work is not available, it is less clear that said person is intentionally violating copyright. However, as soon as the owner of the original material commissions an official translation (thus creating new intellectual property protected by copyright) any unofficial translations would be considered a breach of copyright.

Long story short is, translating comics is not a big issue. Distributing comics for which you do not have a distribution licence is a big issue, regardless of what language they are in - personally I wouldn't want to be going to court with the sole defence of "it's a fan translation, I only did it because I wanted to increase the fanbase".

ztoical

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But if you already own the English text, would a translation infringe that copyright? I can't see how it could.

If for example you took a comic published in english like say Spiderman, you do not own the english text just because you bought the comic nor have you the right to produce an Irish language version. It's not just the physical text itself but also the characters names and other trademarks that are copyrighted.

If you are taking copyrighted english text and translating it into another language without paying for the licenceing right to distribute said text in that language then yes that is in infringing on copyright. Companies pay big money for the rights to distribute material in a certain language and while the Irish language market would not be consider a big one, it is still a market and Disney have a rep for being very protective of their copyright even with the smallest of markets [they sued a woman in wexford several years ago for publishing a kids book with a character called piggly poo claiming it was infringing on their copyright of Winnie the Poo]. Warner brothers has shut down fanart sites and fanfiction sites in the past for using their trade marked characters and only 2 years ago shut down a fanart ebay auction for a cancer charity over copyright. It hardly seems worth spending the time and effort to translate Marvel and/or DC comics if there is a chance of getting into legal issues with the likes of Disney. Both English and Irish are recognized as offical langauages of the state so someone hosting an Irish version of a comic online that could be bought in shops in english would be seen as copyright infringment.

Legally scanlation sites that take Japanese comics and post translations of them in English are infringing copyright but for the most part are overlooked if the comics being translated have not been sold to a publishers in english [or whichever language they are in]. Once they have most scanlation sites take them down as publishers have and do force the sites to close if they continue to host licenced material.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Put it this way, I could read a French comic with some difficulty, but I'd be translating it into English in my head.
Have I infringed the copyright?

In that case you have not infringed copyright because the inside of your head is not a commerical entity.

Irlandesaaa

Fysh wrote: »

The argument has been made in the past that if a person translates a copyrighted work into a language in which the original work is not available, it is less clear that said person is intentionally violating copyright. However, as soon as the owner of the original material commissions an official translation (thus creating new intellectual property protected by copyright) any unofficial translations would be considered a breach of copyright.

ok, so now we're comin to an interesting point (even if a bit off topic lol). I think I quite understood, except for the "argument" above. What do you mean by "translating a copyrighted work into a language in which the original work is not available"? isnt it simply "translating"? as far as i know it's impossible to translate "from english to english" for example lol

and if non-official translation is not allowed, why would they allow if the original language isnt english? is it an english-speakin-only law? that's quite funny :P

Irlandesaaa

ztoical wrote: »

There are a number of comics being published in Irish such as RiRa [which include several franco belgian comics] and the Cló Mhaigh Eo series of graphic novels so there is an interest there in some regard but it depends on the material being offered. Both offer Irish comic artists presenting original material while RiRa offers some franco beligian comics but they would be comics that would not currently be published in english.

I assume as your not charging your taking about hosting translations on a website and if it's not original material then copyright plays a massive role. But lets ignore the copyright for a second offering to tranlsate Marvel or DC comics I can't see appealing to many people, even the most hardcore of Irish speakers, it would seem to make more sense to follow RiRa's example of taking comics that aren't currently translated into english and offering them in Irish.

hm, suimiúil, makes sense. So maybe it'd be easier to translate Mafalda (argentinian) or Turma da Mônica (brazilian). They're both famous, but there's no english version so far

ztoical

Irlandesaaa wrote: »

hm, suimiúil, makes sense. So maybe it'd be easier to translate Mafalda (argentinian) or Turma da Mônica (brazilian). They're both famous, but there's no english version so far

For me that is certainly more appealing then translating comics that are very easy to come by in Ireland. There are some amazing comics and comic artists in South America but language does present a hurdle for a number of people to discover them. There was a really great exhibition of Argentinian comics in London a few months back and I was really shocked by how much work there was and how hard it was to find information on any of them in english [or Irish for that matter]. I even bought several of the comics depsite not being able to read any of them.

ztoical

Irlandesaaa wrote: »

What do you mean by "translating a copyrighted work into a language in which the original work is not available"? isnt it simply "translating"? as far as i know it's impossible to translate "from english to english" for example lol

You can translate from one standard of english to another say - say from British english to American english. It is very common to have both American and British editions of books. You can also find updates of older english to newer vocab - like the new edition of the Famous Five were the language has been updated to make it more modern.

Irlandesaaa wrote: »

and if non-official translation is not allowed, why would they allow if the original language isnt english? is it an english-speakin-only law? that's quite funny :P

It applies to all languages, we simply focused on english. Publishers who don't operate in certain markets [for exmaple most Japanese publishers don't publish outside of Japan] don't usually care about fan scanlations of their work as it's not worth their time and money to chase after them, when they sell the rights to the work to someone else who does operate in those markets then they care as it will effect the amount of money they will get for the rights. It does not mean the fan translators are allowed to translate the material, simply that the publisher is unlikely to presue them over it.

Dan_Solo

ztoical wrote: »

In that case you have not infringed copyright because the inside of your head is not a commerical entity.

I still don't see how a translation creates a brand new thing to copyright. Surely it's the same IP, only in a different form?
If you own an English version you have no right to read a French translation without buying the French translation? If they're not "the same thing" then the translation isn't very accurate.

Fysh

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I still don't see how a translation creates a brand new thing to copyright. Surely it's the same IP, only in a different form?
If you own an English version you have no right to read a French translation without buying the French translation? If they're not "the same thing" then the translation isn't very accurate.

I'll be honest, whether you see it or not is irrelevant. That's how the law treats published matter, and that's the basis on which lawyers will hound into an early grave anyone who embarks on the foolish task of distributing a commercially-distributed comic after translating it into another language.

The question of an exact translation is one for linguists - there's generally no such thing as an exact translation because any language will have its own internal logic, grammar, turns of phrase and so on. Therefore anyone selling you an exact translation of a book or comic is either a liar or a naive linguist.

Dan_Solo

Fysh wrote: »

I'll be honest, whether you see it or not is irrelevant.

That's OK, I was assuming you were being honest.:D

Fysh wrote: »

That's how the law treats published matter, and that's the basis on which lawyers will hound into an early grave anyone who embarks on the foolish task of distributing a commercially-distributed comic after translating it into another language.

That isn't what anybody asked.
If you already own a copy of a comic, can someone supply you with a translation without paying again for what is essentially the same thing? Since two translations will not be the same, how can copyright be claimed over all translations?
Just looking for the legal explanation as this still doesn't make sense.

ztoical

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That isn't what anybody asked.
If you already own a copy of a comic, can someone supply you with a translation without paying again for what is essentially the same thing? Since two translations will not be the same, how can copyright be claimed over all translations?
Just looking for the legal explanation as this still doesn't make sense.

The copyright of the work, in this case a comic book, means it cannot be reproduced or edited without the premission of the copyright holder. Removing the text and replacing it with different text is editing thus infringing on the copyright.

If someone creates a comic the whole comic is copyrighted which includes both the art and the writing. It is their creation so they hold the copyright to it, they can then sell the rights to the comic to different publishers for different markets [or one large publisher who covers several markets] For example the french graphic novel 'Persepolis' was originally published in France by L'Association, the rights for the American and European English language markets were sold to two different imprints of Random House, Jonathon Cape in the UK and Panathon books in the USA.

The Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works is the international copyright law that covers comic books as artistic works and under it scanlations, ie the unlicenced translation and editing of comics from one language into a different language, are illegal.

Dan_Solo

ztoical wrote: »

The copyright of the work, in this case a comic book, means it cannot be reproduced or edited without the premission of the copyright holder. Removing the text and replacing it with different text is editing thus infringing on the copyright.

If there was no money made and it was proven the reader had an original copy of the comic, would a translation still break the copyright?
Probably, but just wondering. If you use a cheat code in an XBox game would you not be similarly breaking the copyright by changing the game?

EDIT: OK, saw your edit. I guess the defense it that part of the "artistic merit" is contained in the fact itself that it is in the chosen language.

ztoical

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If there was no money made and it was proven the reader had an original copy of the comic, would a translation still break the copyright?
Probably, but just wondering. If you use a cheat code in an XBox game would you not be similarly breaking the copyright by changing the game?

If you translate something just for your own use then no it's not an infringment, the infringement in question happens when you share a copyrighted work without permission.

The video game example is not the same as you are not changing the game your using a cheat code which is something created by the game designers and inserted into the game programing.

ztoical

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I guess the defense it that part of the "artistic merit" is contained in the fact itself that it is in the chosen language.

Which is way most creators want professional translations of their work and not fan translations. Most fan translations are literal translations, translating directly word for word rather than conveying the sense of the original. In most cases the creator will work with the translator and they could go through several drafts trying to keep the same rhythem of the original.

A great example is Asterix where nearly all the characters names are puns and play on words in French which caused great issues with the British English translation and the translators spent a great deal of time trying to maintain the feel of the comic while trying to keep the humor of the names. Translation is actually very complicated and requires years of study, it's not just a case of someone learning a language.

Dan_Solo

ztoical wrote: »

The video game example is not the same as you are not changing the game your using a cheat code which is something created by the game designers and inserted into the game programing.

Trying to avoid going too off-topic, but usually a cheat code means you've changed one or two memory registers using a modifying cartridge of some sort. So it isn't exactly the same as what the producers created any more.
This might seem minor, but it could certainly change the entire experience of playing a particular game. The Berne convention probably does not cover this though as it is entirely for personal use, i.e. the modified game only exists on your XBox.

Fysh

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Trying to avoid going too off-topic, but usually a cheat code means you've changed one or two memory registers using a modifying cartridge of some sort. So it isn't exactly the same as what the producers created any more.
This might seem minor, but it could certainly change the entire experience of playing a particular game. The Berne convention probably does not cover this though as it is entirely for personal use, i.e. the modified game only exists on your XBox.

The difference being that you're expected to interact with a game, and given how common cheat codes have been in games it's not outside the normal experience of gameplay for a cheat code to exist and be used. Aside from which, using a cheat code is not the same thing as distributing a modified version of the game without the publisher's permission.

Here's an easy way to explain the whole copyright-of-translations thing:

When you publish a work, you and your publisher have some agreement between you over who holds the copyright to that work. Said copyright includes rights to any derivative works based mainly or solely on the original work. Derivative works include adaptations into other media and translation.

ztoical

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Trying to avoid going too off-topic, but usually a cheat code means you've changed one or two memory registers using a modifying cartridge of some sort. So it isn't exactly the same as what the producers created any more.
This might seem minor, but it could certainly change the entire experience of playing a particular game.

Cheat codes in video games are not the same as translating published works into another language. Cheat codes are implemented by the game developers themselves, ie the people who own the copyright. Hacking into the actual game yourself to alter it would firstly void the warrenty of the game [and hold a high chance of you making the game unplayable] and if you made copies to distribute you'd infringe on the copyright as not just the gameplay but the characters, locations, props etc would all be copyrighted.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The Berne convention probably does not cover this though as it is entirely for personal use, i.e. the modified game only exists on your XBox.

Well you've answered your own question there, something that is for your own use people tend to not have much issue with, it is when you start distributing a modified version of the game without the publisher's permission that copyright comes into play. Even if your doing it for free.

Irlandesaaa

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That isn't what anybody asked.
If you already own a copy of a comic, can someone supply you with a translation without paying again for what is essentially the same thing? Since two translations will not be the same, how can copyright be claimed over all translations?
Just looking for the legal explanation as this still doesn't make sense.

ok, you've got a point here - if, let's suppose, someone translates copyrighted work "for fun", without publishin nor sellin - maybe there's more of an economic than linguistic question involved, i mean, for example, u create brand new characters/plot and publish your comics in your mother tongue; then someone begins ilegally selling the same comics for another country's market claimin "the translations will not be the same". The comic's creator would have a huge loss because of a translation ^^'

even though that's not what i would do - instead, i'd encourage even more people to buy the original comic by showin off a few "free samples" in a language they're not available yet...without claimin I am the author - I'm afraid people might misunderstand my attitude, for justice is blind :P so yeah, i think i got the message, it's not worth to take such a risk just for the sake of improving my translation skills.

Fuinseog

there are currently five graphic novels out on Irish legends. you should find out how well they sold.

Deirdre
sclabhai

Fysh

Irlandesaaa wrote: »

even though that's not what i would do - instead, i'd encourage even more people to buy the original comic by showin off a few "free samples" in a language they're not available yet...without claimin I am the author - I'm afraid people might misunderstand my attitude, for justice is blind :P so yeah, i think i got the message, it's not worth to take such a risk just for the sake of improving my translation skills.

One thing you could do if you're looking to practice your translation skills is pick one or more webcomics and go through their archives to translate them. Quite a lot of higher-profile webcomics already have a crowdsource-type option for fans to translate the comics into other languages, so that would give you a way to practice translating comics without the legal issues. If you pick and choose carefully, you could probably find at least one or two comics whose subject matter is such that the translation would have significant appeal amongst Irish speakers...

Irlandesaaa

Fysh wrote: »

One thing you could do if you're looking to practice your translation skills is pick one or more webcomics and go through their archives to translate them. Quite a lot of higher-profile webcomics already have a crowdsource-type option for fans to translate the comics into other languages, so that would give you a way to practice translating comics without the legal issues. If you pick and choose carefully, you could probably find at least one or two comics whose subject matter is such that the translation would have significant appeal amongst Irish speakers...

wow, thanks *_* that's quite a good idea. So do you think it would be better to translate from Portuguese or English? lol the Brazilian comics, i think, would be kind of new stuff in Ireland...but i'd like to know the irish opinion on that anyway ^^'

Ring4Fea

Meanwhile I would happily provide you with pages I am working on with the script provided so that the first time the pages are ever seen, they are seen in Gaeilge. Assuming you are still here and still interested.