Why dont the Irish Management Team Rate the scrum and Mike Ross

liam12989

It annoys me that a top player doesnt get picked.Last year he was getting picked because he wasnt getting game time now this year he is and kidney still chooses Hayes who clearly isnt getting game time.

All of the new props connacht have gotten on trials and different things can scrummage better than Healy and Hayes. Rodgers, Rodney Ah hou and barry famsuilli.


Why cant we start a game with a front row of Court,Best and Ross and target the scrum

Username37

Unfortunately for Ross he plays for the wrong team!

Podge_irl

Kidney didn't rate him when he was at Munster either. He went to Quins cause he wasn't offered a contract at Munster.

They've obviously just decided to stick with Hayes wil the RWC - Ross' improvement has come too late. Their hand may yet be forced depending on how Hayes performs over the next three games.

tolosenc

Podge_irl wrote: »

Their hand may yet be forced depending on how Hayes performs over the next three games.

Don't hold your breath.

anonymous_joe

Ross was in the GP team of the season as it was back then in his final season tehre.

He wasn't great for Leinster last year, but has been a big improvement his year.

Unfortunately, Kidney doesn't seem to like him at all. Bizarrely he does like Hayes.

corny

Has to be personal.

[Jackass]

Yeah, but same can be said for Leo Cullen, in my opinion the second best second row in the country, although not given the same acolades in the public eye as O'Callaghan, he is a superb organiser, leader and lineout operator and is superb at the breakdown, but apperantly is 5th or 6th choice with Ireland, even though when he got his chance in the six nations he was the best second row on the field on each occasion....

And Jennings, maybe not this season, but in form before couldn't get near an Irish squad despite being the form 7 in the country...

Annnnd you've got Sean O'Brien somehow behind Wallace????

Annnd Ross not getting a sniff

Annnnd the likes of Wallace, O'Driscoll, Hayes getting games..

It's farcical.

I wish we had a coach with no provincial aliegence and picked on form and wasn't so conservative. We'd be ten times the tean we are under Kidney. (que the whords of grand slam and Heineken Cup winning comments. With the squad we have at Ireland, grand slams should not be such an amazing once in a life time feat - O'Sullivan squanderd about 3 ones we should have had, as we were the best team and squad those years - and the squad he had at Munster was the best in Europe, so winning Heineken Cups, whilst a great achievement, isn't exactly ground breaking given the resources - and now with Ireland he's failing whilst refusing to use the best resources at hand - look how a bit of balls can improve a team - look at England - both in terms of selection and in terms of tactics.)

phog

corny wrote: »

Has to be personal.

Have you not heard the rumour?

tolosenc

[Jackass] wrote: »

I wish we had a coach with no provincial aliegence and picked on form and wasn't so conservative.

+1

I suggest Oprah

corny

phog wrote: »

Have you not heard the rumour?

What rumour?

Riskymove

Username37 wrote: »

Unfortunately for Ross he plays for the wrong team!

is that the team that provided 8 starting players against SA and 5 against Samoa (plus three more on bench)??

yeah they dont get a look in do they

SARZY

corny wrote: »

Has to be personal.

Declan Kidney cant afford to dislike players. He may be secure in that job for now but like Eddie O, if it doesnt start to improve soon, he will be on the slippery slope. Ross, Cullen and Casey are more than good enough to be in this squad.

jacothelad

SARZY wrote: »

Declan Kidney cant afford to dislike players. He may be secure in that job for now but like Eddie O, if it doesnt start to improve soon, he will be on the slippery slope. Ross, Cullen and Casey are more than good enough to be in this squad.

...and one or two others, notably Hayes, are no longer viable options for even the near future. Let us hope Deccie doesn't persist with the failed O'Sullivan tactic of picking players because they have a personal history with the coach rather than because they are the current best in that position. While the alternatives are not great, it would be obvious to a blind man on a galloping horse that The Bull is past it. As for the smokescreen stuff about his lifting in the line out, it's on a par with the 'unseen' work of Easterby et al. It's a cop out. If a 19 stone man who spends his days lifting weights in a gym can't boost another guy who has already jumped in the air, he needs sacking.

forlorndonkey

jacothelad wrote: »

...and one or two others, notably Hayes, are no longer viable options for even the near future. Let us hope Deccie doesn't persist with the failed O'Sullivan tactic of picking players because they have a personal history with the coach rather than because they are the current best in that position. While the alternatives are not great, it would be obvious to a blind man on a galloping horse that The Bull is past it. As for the smokescreen stuff about his lifting in the line out, it's on a par with the 'unseen' work of Easterby et al. It's a cop out. If a 19 stone man who spends his days lifting weights in a gym can't boost another guy who has already jumped in the air, he needs sacking.

Actually throwing a 17 stone man above your head is pretty damn hard whatever your weight.

I don't know anything about scrummaging so I can't say if he's been deficient in that regard, I saw him cover a fair bit of ground and make a try saving tackle for Munster a month or so ago though and he doesn't look any worse in the loose than your standard prop to me.

corny

SARZY wrote: »

Declan Kidney cant afford to dislike players. He may be secure in that job for now but like Eddie O, if it doesnt start to improve soon, he will be on the slippery slope. Ross, Cullen and Casey are more than good enough to be in this squad.

No one said anything to the contrary but the question is will Ross, Cullen or Casey be picked? Cullen might. The other two? Certainly no evidence to suggest a departure from current policy.

CatFromHue

bob casey is not good enough to be in the squad, will you all just give it a rest.

he has had chances for ireland and he didnt take them. he cant last a full game in the english league.

with the rules for substitute props you can have props that only play 60 mins but these rules dont apply to the second row.

leo cullen has just come back from a long lay off for injury and he said himself that he struggled in the bit of the game he played against saracens fitness wise. if he had come back earlier and played the two heineken cup games it would be a different story but he didnt.

SARZY

CatFromHue wrote: »

bob casey is not good enough to be in the squad, will you all just give it a rest.

he has had chances for ireland and he didnt take them. he cant last a full game in the english league.

with the rules for substitute props you can have props that only play 60 mins but these rules dont apply to the second row.

leo cullen has just come back from a long lay off for injury and he said himself that he struggled in the bit of the game he played against saracens fitness wise. if he had come back earlier and played the two heineken cup games it would be a different story but he didnt.

In the last 2 matches a second row has been substituted.
Your opinion is delivered as fact and I am offering mine as an opinion.Caseys chances as you put it have been few and far between.
Both he and Ross have had outstanding seasons in England and have still been ignored. My opinion was that D K cannot afford to ignore such players and in my opinion these players and others have been ignored.

nice_guy80

simple fact is that the Irish contracting systems means the most senior players will always be picked for the big games

and the Irish Professional Rugby Players association I'd say have a big ole in that policy

Whereas Wales just seem to throw them into the team - if they are good enough, they're old enough

Bogsnorkler

nice_guy80 wrote: »

simple fact is that the Irish contracting systems means the most senior players will always be picked for the big games

and the Irish Professional Rugby Players association I'd say have a big ole in that policy

Whereas Wales just seem to throw them into the team - if they are good enough, they're old enough

Pretty much how i feel.

Thats why Hayes is still being picked anyway i'd say. As for Cullen, well its worrying. Casey is pretty old and cannot manage more that 60 mins in the P'ship. Blood young guys instead. But that won't happen either

CatFromHue

SARZY wrote: »

In the last 2 matches a second row has been substituted.
Your opinion is delivered as fact and I am offering mine as an opinion.Caseys chances as you put it have been few and far between.
Both he and Ross have had outstanding seasons in England and have still been ignored. My opinion was that D K cannot afford to ignore such players and in my opinion these players and others have been ignored.

what if the other second row gets injured and has to be replaced early in the game? that leaves casey having to play the full 80 mins. at this moment in time he isnt able to do at club level, so he will be really struggling at international level.

he was in the 2008 churchill cup and the autumn internationals squad for 2008, the squad for the 2009 six nations and the summer tour to north america in 2009.

he has been in ireland squads so the coachs have worked with him.

has he ever been picked for a lions tour? no.

is he better than mal o kelly, paul o connel, donnacha o callaghan? no and these guys have been our second rows for the last 5/6 years.

there are only x amount of players you can have on the team or 22 and im not knocking the guy in any way but the guys picked ahead of him were better.

Offside

CatFromHue wrote: »

bob casey is not good enough to be in the squad, will you all just give it a rest.

he has had chances for ireland and he didnt take them. he cant last a full game in the english league.

with the rules for substitute props you can have props that only play 60 mins but these rules dont apply to the second row.

leo cullen has just come back from a long lay off for injury and he said himself that he struggled in the bit of the game he played against saracens fitness wise. if he had come back earlier and played the two heineken cup games it would be a different story but he didnt.

All fair enough and I harbour hope that that's exactly why Cullen has been ignored, but you've completely neglected to mention Ross! He definitely deserves his chance against NZ and while I don't feel Kidney will make the change, if he does pick him I'll have far more faith in Kidney as a selector.

CatFromHue

we will know more about what kidney thinks of cullen come 6 nations time but at the moment i can see why he isnt in the squad.

i left ross out cos im not sure. im an outside back after all ha!

for south africa i was pretty happy with the starting front row, as i think most were.

for samoa i was surprised that hayes was in, not hugely surprised though. he may not be the best srummager but he isnt the worst either, and most of the problems were coming from courts side.

last season ross wasnt getting a look in at leinster but has got alot of games this season and has done well. we will see more of what kidney thinks of ross at the end of the november series. we are only half way there at the moment

Podge_irl

CatFromHue wrote: »

for samoa i was surprised that hayes was in, not hugely surprised though. he may not be the best srummager but he isnt the worst either

Oh the props in the squad he is...by a distance.

danthefan

Smal is in the Irish Times this morning saying he's very happy with the progress of the scrum. Great :rolleyes:

padser

danthefan wrote: »

Smal is in the Irish Times this morning saying he's very happy with the progress of the scrum. Great :rolleyes:

Yeah he should be hung out to dry for that.

Also Kidney said after the Samoa game that he WASNT disappointed.

Again - if that's how high he sets the bar he shouldn't be let near the team

d'Oracle

Kidney never says anything worth listening to in the media.
He is like a politician infront of a camera.

That said, I don't know how anybody can say Ross is better than the current props. He has hardly played.
If we want to win against NZ he more than likely should not be played.
Because he will be up against very good props.

However I think he should be played.
I would like to see loads of younger players played.
Cos next to the 6N and the WC these are of less importance.

danthefan

d'Oracle wrote: »

That said, I don't know how anybody can say Ross is better than the current props. He has hardly played.

Hardly played what? He has played probably 120 or 130 games of professional rugby.

Are you suggesting Hayes is better than Ross at the moment? Do you actually watch rugby or just basing it off the fact Hayes has the caps and Ross doesn't?

Riskymove

danthefan wrote: »

Hardly played what?

I think the point is that he has not been a regular starter up until this season and thats down to injury to other players

danthefan

Riskymove wrote: »

I think the point is that he has not been a regular starter up until this season and thats down to injury to other players

For who? He was a regular starter at Quins.

To say Ross hasn't played enough rugby to considered is completely wrong, nothing but an argument Kidney apologists or people deluded enough to think Hayes is still good enough are hanging on to.

Cpt_Blackbeard

[Jackass] wrote: »

Yeah, but same can be said for Leo Cullen, in my opinion the second best second row in the country, although not given the same acolades in the public eye as O'Callaghan, he is a superb organiser, leader and lineout operator and is superb at the breakdown, but apperantly is 5th or 6th choice with Ireland, even though when he got his chance in the six nations he was the best second row on the field on each occasion....

And Jennings, maybe not this season, but in form before couldn't get near an Irish squad despite being the form 7 in the country...

Annnnd you've got Sean O'Brien somehow behind Wallace????

Annnd Ross not getting a sniff

Annnnd the likes of Wallace, O'Driscoll, Hayes getting games..

It's farcical.

I wish we had a coach with no provincial aliegence and picked on form and wasn't so conservative. We'd be ten times the tean we are under Kidney. (que the whords of grand slam and Heineken Cup winning comments. With the squad we have at Ireland, grand slams should not be such an amazing once in a life time feat - O'Sullivan squanderd about 3 ones we should have had, as we were the best team and squad those years - and the squad he had at Munster was the best in Europe, so winning Heineken Cups, whilst a great achievement, isn't exactly ground breaking given the resources - and now with Ireland he's failing whilst refusing to use the best resources at hand - look how a bit of balls can improve a team - look at England - both in terms of selection and in terms of tactics.)

Pretty hard to see through your Blue tinted spectacles, ya?

Ill agree that Ross deserves a chance, but he only ever be 2nd choice behind Buckley and possibly Court too.

SOB squandered his chance at the Irish no.7 shirt last week, Wallace is a better player and plays 6 anyway. He has no business playing ahead of Leamy or Ferris at 6 either

MOD was in great form up to now in a Munster shirt and deserved his call up. Toner is lucky that the lineout hasn't been functioning so he is getting a chance, he offers nothing else around the field; If Holland and Nagle showed anything yesterday, its that Toner will be lucky to start in the second row when POC, DOC & Cullen retire. Ryan also seems to be ahead of him in the pecking order due to his superior physicality around the park.

Speaking of the Australia match, Varley has put his hand up to be Ireland's Test Hooker; He was spot on with his darts and a great ball carrier.

Personally I think the backline is where the majority of our problems are (and where the majority of the Leinster players play). D'Arcy is looking past it and BOD is looking too slow for 13, he should be tried at 12 with a player with pace and the ability to break a defensive line outside him eg. Earls or Bowe. Kearney is a shadow of his former self and needs to learn to defend before he costs us more tries (cue witty ROG remark :rolleyes:). Fitz is a great player, but needs to learn how to score tries before he can be classified an international winger; His place may be at 12 or 15 where his creativity will be utilised better.

The backline currently offers very little going forward, but it will be our best against NZ as they are good defenders (BOD and Darce especially)

danthefan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

SOB squandered his chance at the Irish no.7 shirt last week, Wallace is a better player and plays 6 anyway. He has no business playing ahead of Leamy or Ferris at 6 either

Wallace has played 6 maybe once or twice in his entire career.

And SOB doesn't do well in his first ever start in a rubbish team performance with no gameplan so we discard him. Genius!

That kind of attitude has is in this shambles in the first place. Pick the same guys again and again and again and again...

d'Oracle

danthefan wrote: »

Hardly played what? He has played probably 120 or 130 games of professional rugby.

Are you suggesting Hayes is better than Ross at the moment? Do you actually watch rugby or just basing it off the fact Hayes has the caps and Ross doesn't?

Hardly Played International rugby, which is what we are talking about.

The only people who say that heineken cup rugby is the same standard as International are people who both haven't played International and refuse to believe pro's and ex-pros who say different.

Also no, I am not suggesting Hayes is better than Ross.

Also, Yes I do watch rugby. As for the rest of that paragraph, its not worthy of comment.

danthefan

d'Oracle wrote: »

Hardly Played International rugby, which is what we are talking about.

The only people who say that heineken cup rugby is the same standard as International are people who both haven't played International and refuse to believe pro's and ex-pros who say different.

Please link or quote to where I said HEC was the same standard as international.

And are you saying we shouldn't bother giving Ross a chance because he hasn't played international yet? How does one gain international experience in the first place?

Cpt_Blackbeard

danthefan wrote: »

Wallace has played 6 maybe once or twice in his entire career.

And SOB doesn't do well in his first ever start in a rubbish team performance with no gameplan so we discard him. Genius!

That kind of attitude has is in this shambles in the first place. Pick the same guys again and again and again and again...

Sorry I meant that SOB plays 6 :pac:, Jennings normally plays 7.

I'm not talking about discarding him, but throwing him in against NZ against McCaw?? Thats just too dangerous. Ive heard of throwing people in at the deep end, but thats not just the deep end; You might as well f8ck him off the Cliffs of Moher in the Winter...in a storm. Maybe he could swim and become a hero, but the risk is too big for me.

If he doesn't start he won't make the bench, with Leamy's versatility or Ferris's dynamism there anyway.

d'Oracle

danthefan wrote: »

Please link or quote to where I said HEC was the same standard as international.

And are you saying we shouldn't bother giving Ross a chance because he hasn't played international yet? How does one gain international experience in the first place?

No.
Because I never said or intimated that you did.

You are clearly spoiling for a fight, you seem hell bent on shoving all sorts of opinions into my mouth.
I have nothing more to say to you.

Riskymove

danthefan wrote: »

And are you saying we shouldn't bother giving Ross a chance because he hasn't played international yet? How does one gain international experience in the first place?

if you actually read posts before diving in you might have noticed that he said Ross should play

you really need to calm down and stop being so paranoid about the issue

For who? He was a regular starter at Quins.

he doesn't play for Quins anymore

he was a leinster player last season and spent most games on the bench, it is only down to injuries that he is starting this season

And SOB doesn't do well in his first ever start in a rubbish team performance with no gameplan so we discard him. Genius!

funny how 'rubbish team perfromnance' doesn't excuse other players!

pappyodaniel

Mike Ross, the golden calf of Irish scrummaging.

Bogsnorkler

pappyodaniel wrote: »

Mike Ross, the golden calf of Irish scrummaging.

i see what you did thar

pappyodaniel

pappyodaniel wrote: »

Mike Ross, the golden calf of Irish scrummaging.

or John Hayes, the dying Donkey of Irish Scrummaging.

Buckley, please get fit, quick.

Riskymove

Riskymove wrote: »

he doesn't play for Quins anymore

he was a leinster player last season and spent most games on the bench, it is only down to injuries that he is starting this season

This doesn't cut it for me as an excuse for anyone, Sexton was behind Contempomi in the Leinster pecking order for ages, and couldn't force his way through until injury gave him a chance. And he took it.

Ross was behind Wright, who, in my honest opinion, has been one of Leinster's most important and consistent player for the last 3 seasons. There is no shame to being second best to someone like Wright. Now, Wright is injured, and Ross is getting gametime, and he is playing a far better game than I thought he was capable of.

Earls is (currently) behind Fitz for a wing spot in an Ireland Jersey, yet would be a surefire starter on many other teams. It is no shame to be behind someone in the pecking order, and if your chance comes as a result of an injury, a transfer, a freakish wind causing a flight to be delayed, it doesn't matter! If you take that opportunity, and progress, and force the management to consider what happens when that starter returns, then that's the most you can do!

jacothelad

Riskymove wrote: »

I think the point is that he has not been a regular starter up until this season and thats down to injury to other players

Neither has Hayes this season. How bad must you be to be second fiddle to Buckley? Kidney should have used Ross and /or Hagan at some time over this autumn series. Let's face it, Hayes has been a stalwart despite being really awful for years...apart from the lifting myth and standing pointing in the air at rucks....a which he is clearly seen to be excellent. Anyone who thinks Buckley is any better is delusional.

SomeFool

I think Timmy Ryan should be starting tighthead, I mean he is palying regularly for Newcastle, Steenson could slot in at 10 and Staunton on the bench :pac:

Cpt_Blackbeard

jacothelad wrote: »

How bad must you be to be second fiddle to Buckley?

Well Ross is "second fiddle" to Hayes :P

anonymous_joe

Riskymove wrote: »

I think the point is that he has not been a regular starter up until this season and thats down to injury to other players

Which is how most people get a break.

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Well Ross is "second fiddle" to Hayes :P

What a stupid argument.

Hayes is shít. We all know that. It's impossible to miss.

Ross may well have been bad once, but he's playing well at the moment.

That's more than can be said about Hayes.

Cpt_Blackbeard

anonymous_joe wrote: »

What a stupid argument.

Hayes is shít. We all know that. It's impossible to miss.

Ross may well have been bad once, but he's playing well at the moment.

That's more than can be said about Hayes.

There is a difference between shít and past it. His reputation is being ruined by Kidney's insistence on playing him.

That is the least of our worries at the moment. We need to ask how Best and Reddan are starting?? They are comfortably the 3rd best in their respective positions in the squad!

anonymous_joe

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

There is a difference between shít and past it. His reputation is being ruined by Kidney's insistence on playing him.

That is the least of our worries at the moment. We need to ask how Best and Reddan are starting?? They are comfortably the 3rd best in their respective positions in the squad!

There is a distinction alright.

But as you said, the coach is forcing us to be reminded of how bad he now is.

profitius

I did read that it could be Ross' workrate thats stopping him from getting picked but Hayes' workrate isn't good now either.

whysomoody

Reddan should not be anywhere near that team on Saturday, Stringer is by far the best option and speeds the ball up. good luck to sexton with McCaw getting an extra few seconds time to hit him with Reddans step-before-pass.

Cpt_Blackbeard

profitius wrote: »

I did read that it could be Ross' workrate thats stopping him from getting picked but Hayes' workrate isn't good now either.

Its not that Hayes is lazy around the park, its just that the ball is normally just leaving the ruck by the time he arrives