Property Tax & Water Rates - Refuse to Pay?

jpb1974

Do people believe that the citizens of Ireland have the balls to stand up to the Government and say enough is enough by refusing to pay (potential) new taxes such as water rates and property tax?

Thoughts please.

DrumSteve

In a word:

No.

Mr.Micro

Any big property tax, the ESRI was suggesting €950 PA on average, will be political suicide for FF/Greens but as they face meltdown anyway they may press ahead with it?

Not paying such a charge will only result in a court summons and trouble, not like the shower who owe €20 million to several hundred millions and are heroes. So Ireland will pay and pay no matter what.

jpb1974

I suspect myself that people will just roll over a die when it comes to it.

Harping on about how the public are being forced to bail out the banks and calls for a general election (monkeys out, monkey in) is about as far as they take it.

I had a great amount of respect for the old age pensioners when they stood up to the Government a couple of years back... it's a shame that as a nation we can't say "no, I've paid enough.. let the bond holders suffer some of the pain, they're the ones that took the risk".

And if enough stood united what could they do, take us all to court... but alas I doubt we've the balls to do it.

changes

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Any big property tax, the ESRI was suggesting €950 PA on average, will be political suicide for FF/Greens but as they face meltdown anyway they may press ahead with it?

Not paying such a charge will only result in a court summons and trouble, not like the shower who owe €20 million to several hundred millions and are heroes. So Ireland will pay and pay no matter what.

Where do the ESRI come up with these figures? €950 is a serious sum of money for alot of people these days.

Dirk Gently

jpb1974 wrote: »

Do people believe that the citizens of Ireland have the balls to stand up to the Government and say enough is enough by refusing to pay (potential) new taxes such as water rates and property tax?

Thoughts please.

some will refuse but most will pay. Of those who refuse they will be broke down little by little by targeting certain house holds to make an example of them. When people start seeing their neighbours summoned and jailed most will break and pay up. They dont have to jail everyone, just enough to frighten the rest into submission. Trust me, prison spaces will magically become available for people not paying even if there isn't enough room in jails for actual criminals with 50 or so previous convictions.

alang184

The FF Donegal candidate is currently the 2nd favourite to win the seat.

So no, I don't believe this population is capable of doing anything that makes sense.

the groutch

depends on how many refuse to pay, if it's like the waste charges it'll be hard to chase up everyone, and those who pay a bit of it here and there will probably get away with it

galwayrush

I'm self employed, the way things are for me atm, i won't be paying it, simply because i don't have it. My wife and kids come first, if it means i end up going to jail, i don't honestly care anymore.

jpb1974

I'm self employed, the way things are for me atm, i won't be paying it, simply because i don't have it. My wife and kids come first, if it means i end up going to jail, i don't honestly care anymore.

Aye.. I was literally just about to say that I suspect for many it'll be a case of simply not being able to afford it and phuck the Government if they can't accept that.

Water Rates, Property Tax, increased Income Tax, income levies, PRSI increases, reduced children's allowance etc, etc.... last time I looked my shíte was brown and lumpy and didn't at all resemble a fifty euro note.

ronaneire

They can look for what they want. Will they get it?
Think we all need to stand up and be heard, enough is enough.

View

I can't comment on how it would work here but in the US, the various government bodies can secure a judgment against you for non-payment of property taxes and seize your property based on that judgment (i.e. you lose the property and all title to it).

I suspect that few people would refuse to pay if such a system were to be introduced here (presuming it is possible).

Likewise, I'd guess that few people really would want to run the risk of enjoying a stay in one of the state's prisons if it were a case of "Pay up or go to jail".

Most people have realised at this stage that more taxes are on the way. They probably don't hugely care how they are levied, just so long as they pay them.

amacachi

jpb1974 wrote: »

I suspect myself that people will just roll over a die when it comes to it.

Harping on about how the public are being forced to bail out the banks and calls for a general election (monkeys out, monkey in) is about as far as they take it.

I had a great amount of respect for the old age pensioners when they stood up to the Government a couple of years back... it's a shame that as a nation we can't say "no, I've paid enough.. let the bond holders suffer some of the pain, they're the ones that took the risk".

And if enough stood united what could they do, take us all to court... but alas I doubt we've the balls to do it.

Sure, let the bondholders take the pain, but it's them who are still paying for 30%+ of government spending in this country, I don't understand how people can't see that link.

deelite

Just a quickie that's been bothering me.

Will Councils have to pay property tax on their property (local houses)?

If I pay the water rate does that mean they'd have to come and fix the smell which comes from the drains in the morning time (it's woeful and weather dependant)?

stoneill

There will be no major protest, we will all just lie down and take it.

Why? - because we are in the gob****e class.

Below us is the scumbag who doesn't give a fu*k and gets away with it.
Above us is the rich elite who doesn't give a fu*k and gets away with it.

In the middle is us - out trying to to the best for ourselves and families.
I can't take the risk of going to prison for my beliefs, who would support my family when I'm banged up? Would I lose my job for being convicted, regardless of it being a criminal or civil matter? There are thousands like us.
So there it is - we will put up and shut up because we are caught in a trap, a captive demographic that can't afford to pay, but can't afford not to.

c montgomery

There are a large number of people currently not able to service the intetest on their mortgages never mind pay off the principle. None of these people will be able to pay a property tax.

Currently mortgage rates are at there lowest ever and will only go in one direction over the coming years. When this happens, more and more people will not be able to pay their mortgage. At the moment im working but i have taken a pay cut of 30 % over the past 2 years. As a result im just about able to pay my mortgage. If interest rates rise by 1-2% before i get a pay rise i will not be able to pay my mortgage. If they bring in property tax, i will have to choose which to pay off that month, property tax or mortgage. Ill be fu*ked either way.

I doubt im alone, in fact id say theres tens of thousands like me.

I already pay my fair share, theres only so much people can take.

slimjimmc

galwayrush wrote: »

I'm self employed, the way things are for me atm, i won't be paying it, simply because i don't have it. My wife and kids come first, if it means i end up going to jail, i don't honestly care anymore.

I think you'll find yourself caught between a rock and a hard place. As a self employed person I presume you will have no or little income while you're not working. So on what income will your family survive on while you're spending a fortnight in prison, would it be cheaper to pay up? Also have you considered how potential customers may view you if they hear you have a criminal record and are a jail-bird. You mightn't care now but you might do later down the road.

mikemac

Many people in rural areas already pay for water. Cost money to install a well, then get a fitter to service it and ESB to power it

So I assume these are exempt?
After all, the council doesn't provide water.

galwayrush wrote: »

I'm self employed, the way things are for me atm, i won't be paying it, simply because i don't have it. My wife and kids come first, if it means i end up going to jail, i don't honestly care anymore.

I'm not sure I'd want to employ your services if you are struggling so badly. You may take my money and shut down overnight. I don't know your business but even you choose reliable people to do business with.

And if you get that reputation out there your business may dry up.

ronaneire

feelingstressed wrote: »

Many people in rural areas already pay for water. Cost money to install a well, then get a fitter to service it and ESB to power it

So I assume these are exempt?
After all, the council doesn't provide water.

Originally Posted by galwayrush
I'm self employed, the way things are for me atm, i won't be paying it, simply because i don't have it. My wife and kids come first, if it means i end up going to jail, i don't honestly care anymore.

I'm not sure I'd want to employ your services if you are struggling so badly. You may take my money and shut down overnight. I don't know your business but even you choose reliable people to do business with.

And if you get that reputation out there your business may dry up.

I suppose it is really wrong to assume. He could be struggling because of a number of factors, can't see what it's got to do with this thread...

Fid10

A letter in today's Irish Independent (Saturday 13th) claims that Government Ministers are exempt from the €200 Non-Principal Private Residential (NPPR) tax.

If this is indeed true, then it is simply outrageous.

The question that now arises is will Government Ministers seek to exempt themselves from any proposed Property Tax?

stoneill

Fid10 wrote: »

A letter in today's Irish Independent (Saturday 13th) claims that Government Ministers are exempt from the €200 Non-Principal Private Residential (NPPR) tax.

Who else actually can claim expenses for having a second property?

deelite

Fid10 wrote: »

A letter in today's Irish Independent (Saturday 13th) claims that Government Ministers are exempt from the €200 Non-Principal Private Residential (NPPR) tax.

If this is indeed true, then it is simply outrageous.

The question that now arises is will Government Ministers seek to exempt themselves from any proposed Property Tax?

Is this for real - I bet the Liveline will be buzzing on Monday.:mad:

oppenheimer1

galwayrush wrote: »

I'm self employed, the way things are for me atm, i won't be paying it, simply because i don't have it. My wife and kids come first, if it means i end up going to jail, i don't honestly care anymore.

So you'd go to jail and leave your family with no income rather than a reduced one. Makes sense :rolleyes:

galwayrush

slimjimmc wrote: »

I think you'll find yourself caught between a rock and a hard place. As a self employed person I presume you will have no or little income while you're not working. So on what income will your family survive on while you're spending a fortnight in prison, would it be cheaper to pay up? Also have you considered how potential customers may view you if they hear you have a criminal record and are a jail-bird. You mightn't care now but you might do later down the road.

I don't have it to spare atm, so where do i get it from?
If i go to prison, it will be for a far more serious crime, because i don't care anymore.

galwayrush

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

So you'd go to jail and leave your family with no income rather than a reduced one. Makes sense :rolleyes:

Would i have a choice if i did not have the money?

slimjimmc

I get ya, you'd be claiming inability to pay. That would be an entirely different situation to refusing to pay. I think the authorities (and the courts if it went that far) already take genuine circumstances into consideration for other things so I have no reason to believe their attitude would change. Only guessing here, but for example, they might allow you pay off a small bit and add the rest as a lien/debt on the property which you can pay off later.

Einhard

clown bag wrote: »

some will refuse but most will pay. Of those who refuse they will be broke down little by little by targeting certain house holds to make an example of them. When people start seeing their neighbours summoned and jailed most will break and pay up. They dont have to jail everyone, just enough to frighten the rest into submission. Trust me, prison spaces will magically become available for people not paying even if there isn't enough room in jails for actual criminals with 50 or so previous convictions.

I don't have a problem with that TBH. If you choose not to pay your taxes, you get prosected. If you don't pay them after that, you get incarcerated.

nuac

water, electricity etc etc should of course be free. Someone else should pay for it. Right?

Liam Byrne

nuac wrote: »

water, electricity etc etc should of course be free. Someone else should pay for it. Right?

If you had your own generator - which you paid for and installed yourself - and still had to pay for electricity, would you be annoyed ?

As has been pointed out loads of people have drilled their own wells at their own expense, and so they should not have to pay.

Also, FF have set the standard for getting "someone else to pay for it" when it comes to bank failures and political failures; I mightn't agree with them, but since they set the standard then they should follow it through in order to be "fair" to everyone.

changes

changes wrote: »

Where do the ESRI come up with these figures? €950 is a serious sum of money for alot of people these days.

The Greens and Gormley want a billion from water charges
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0125/breaking30.html

Which is 1,000 per household

Serious money being taken out of peoples pockets how will we recover?

nuac wrote: »

water, electricity etc etc should of course be free. Someone else should pay for it. Right?

Its NOT free at the moment - do you think the ESB work for free?? LOL

ilovesleep

Deleted User wrote: »

The Greens and Gormley want a billion from water charges
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0125/breaking30.html

Which is 1,000 per household

Serious money being taken out of peoples pockets how will we recover?

Let me get this right
- a 1000 a year per household for water charges
- a 1000 a year per household for property tax.

How do they think people have this kind of money?

They will be a load of suicides come janaury.

Well with mortgage arrears skyrocketing and tax increases, wages cuts I dont expect people to have much disposable income.

I do not see a recovery in the forseeable future. Stagnation for maybe a decade or until something happens like default or a new age of EU structural funding etc

Oliver1985

I dont mind having to pay a property tax but 960euro a year is really crazy to be honest!!:eek:

alex73

Water charges make 100% sense... come live in rural ireland where we have been paying for group water schemes from years!!. If people knew the value of water then they would use less.

Dirk Gently

alex73 wrote: »

Water charges make 100% sense... .

Depends whether its a flat rate revenue raising exercise or if its charging for waste beyond a household allowance. I wont be paying any flat rate charge which means I get charged the same rate as some guy who leaves his taps running 24/7. I'd also like to see a commitment to ring fence the money raised for public water works. I smell a flat rate tax to pay back Mr Abramovich and friends though. Such a tax will do zero for water conservation and will kill what little personal spending in shops there is in lower paid communities.

dampy

I agree with the water charges but they must only come in on a metered basis. remember the people who got us into this mess have bigger houses and probably with private pools which means they use more water than the rest of us so an average rate is unfair it only means the rich are being looked after again.
Property tax can not be allowed to come in at this moment of time as people are struggling to pay their mortgages now and the rate of suicides will rise if the government put more financial pressure on people.
Nama was set up to protect the wrong people , instead of bailing out the banks whose money is owed to them by business developers and who have no intention of paying , nama should of taking debts off the banks for people who have arrears on their mortgages and increased the term of the mortgage to reduce the monthly payment that people could pay or brought in a generational mortgage like other countries have done. Or the banks should have been instructed to do the same and sell any properties that developers, who owe money , at a reasonable amount so that they can make some money back.
People have to remember that the people running the country were elected by us and paid by us and it is now time that we took control back off them , this country needs a revolution but instead of taking to the streets in seperate groups we need to take a leaf out of the french peoples books and have a nationwide strike and the day to do it is Budget day 7th December. everybody needs to down tools on this day and march on the Dail , we need pensioners ,paye workers , taxi drivers , unemployed , civil servants , business owners , self employed etc to stop work and tell the government that we want them out.
What we need is a few top men to organise this and to get the word out there.

touts

The problem with property taxes and water taxes is they want to impose a common flat rate tax on a diverse set of people.

Management fees, stamp duty, connection fees, group scheme fees should all be tax deductable but the indication is they wont be as flat rate taxes seem to be the chosen option.

Also is is morally wrong to charge people in rural areas the same tax as those in urban areas considering they recieve little or no services from the state. People who chose to live in Dublin and avail of the most of the states investment in public services should pay substantially more than someone living down the country.

This is the area that there will be public disorder over. There will be hundreds of thousands of angry country people storming government buildings if the government taxes them the same as in Dublin but continue to close rural bus services, schools and hospitals while continuing to build the Dublin Airport metro, New DIT campus and Dublin Childrens Hospital.

yoshytoshy

I think the taxes are important ,but it's important that there are systems in place to manage the money properly. Theres already far too many inefficiencies in the services that are supplied and to take money for them and throw it into a cash pile ,is a complete waste.

Before anyone pays money ,the public should know exactly where the money is going and what they're getting for it.

dampy

galwayrush wrote: »

I don't have it to spare atm, so where do i get it from?
If i go to prison, it will be for a far more serious crime, because i don't care anymore.

I agree with you but what everybody is forgetting that does not agree is that they are going back to the old addage of " Me Fein" , looking after themselves . Remeymber the prisons are overcrowded and although the judges are sending people to prison for small offences , the wardens in the prison processes you and let you back out in a coupleof hours.
There was 2 cases I remember recently that a man from Louth was sent to Mountjoy for not having a dog licence he was a pensioner and hadn't got the money at the time to buy one. He was processed and the warden just couldn't understand what was going on as he had no room for him and was released a few hours later and the worse thing is this man had no money on him to get back home to Co. Louth ( this was in the papers) . a solicitor friend told me a similar story and he agrees with me that everybody in this country needs to refuse to pay these taxes unless they are brought in on a fair basis ( No property tax until the economy turns and people can afford to pay their mortgages and no water tax unless it is metered). If everybody refuses to pay what are they going to do , the new prison was scrapped because there is no money to build it and all the other prisons are overcrowded , as to having a record be honest with people and tell them why , our ancestors fought for our freedom from the English and their greed and now we have a homegrown crowd who want to treat us the same way the English Landlords did to our ancestors and we can not let this happen. What we need now is Solidarity and not the attitude of "Me Fein" , "I'm alright Jack" , its time to send this government to "Coventry".