Failed Twice in Churchtown, should I book there again?

PurvesGrundy

Hi, I've been driving for two years and have done my test twice in Churchtown (my local centre) and have failed twice in quick succession. I do however reckon the second time was unfortunate, due to a traffic hazard approaching me which was impossible to react to and I got a grade 3 for it.

I am passionate about cars and am really determined to get it this time, so what do people advise; should I go with Churchtown again and hope for the best or choose another centre?

ADIDriving

From what you have said, I would advise Churchtown again. If you just got caught out by an odd hazard and would have passed otherwise, then you should pass next time. You would have to spend time and money to become familar with another test area. Apply again. No bad luck.

challengemaster

I'm curious to know what this impossible to react to hazard was, but anyway - go for it again. If you had no other major faults, why wouldn't you? 3rd time a charm and all

PurvesGrundy

ADIDriving wrote: »

From what you have said, I would advise Churchtown again. If you just got caught out by an odd hazard and would have passed otherwise, then you should pass next time. You would have to spend time and money to become familar with another test area. Apply again. No bad luck.

Yeah, I'm going to go with Churchtown again, thanks.

The thing is, it was actually a pretty good test last time other than the grade 3.

challengemaster wrote: »

I'm curious to know what this impossible to react to hazard was, but anyway - go for it again. If you had no other major faults, why wouldn't you? 3rd time a charm and all

I was in a housing estate and turning left at a T-Junction with cars parked on both sides, obstructing my view. I checked left and right and the way looked to be clear until this Micra shot up in front of me and I had to jam on the brakes after completing the turn.

It really was unfortunate, as I don't think there was any other way in how I could've reacted.

J_R

PurvesGrundy wrote: »

should I go with Churchtown again and hope for the best or choose another centre?

I was in a housing estate and turning left at a T-Junction with cars parked on both sides, obstructing my view. I checked left and right and the way looked to be clear until this Micra shot up in front of me and I had to jam on the brakes after completing the turn.

It really was unfortunate, as I don't think there was any other way in how I could've reacted.

Hi,

If you are a safe competent driver and ready for a lifetime of driving it should not matter where you do the test.

The examiners try to have a level playing field for all and when marking, make allowances for difficult or easy towns/routes. (At least an examiner told me so once)

If you do it in Churchtown would check out that junction again.

From my understanding from your post that Micra driver was driving on a straight stretch of road, he might not have even been aware that your road existed. Perhaps he was a bad driver, poor observational skills and travelling too fast for the conditions but you should have anticipated that a car could be travelling fast through that junction and emerged accordingly.

Perhaps your observation was poor and you should have spotted him sooner, (looking/checking wrong direction) or perhaps you over-reacted and braked unnecessary harshly ?.

Chances are if that Micra did not arrive just at the wrong time you would have only received a Grade 2 fault, but it did and the examiner gave you a grade 3 for your action/reaction.

Have a look at the junction from the other directions.

Good luck

ADIDriving

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

If you are a safe competent driver and ready for a lifetime of driving it should not matter where you do the test.

The examiners try to have a level playing field for all and when marking, make allowances for difficult or easy towns/routes. (At least an examiner told me so once)

I agree with your first point. But, do you honestly believe this second point? If so please explain how the pass rate in Sligo, for example, is closer to double that of Churchtown.....and (respectfully) don't say it is because the instructors are better.

J_R

ADIDriving wrote: »

I agree with your first point. But, do you honestly believe this second point? If so please explain how the pass rate in Sligo, for example, is closer to double that of Churchtown.....and (respectfully) don't say it is because the instructors are better.

Sorry, but very respectfully of course it is due to the instructors. The RSA examiners are trained to a very high standard and have regular checks to ensure they maintain an overall consistency in their test markings.

If the RSA receive complaints regarding an examiner they will investigate and remedy if necessary.

Examiners also move around from center to center, here in Sligo had a tester from Dublin only a few weeks ago, lovely man. Doubt very much that the pass rate halved for that week.

I was at a meeting last Saturday where Noel Brett (CEO of RSA) was a guest speaker and was most impressed with his obvious genuine commitment to improving all aspects of road safety, including the driving test.

So, my very honest held belief, of course its the instructors.

Bill2673

My own belief is that the test is so much about appearing to be doing the right thing, as opposed to (or as well as) actually doing the right thing, that it can things quite difficult if something completely unexpected happens such as the situation you were in.

What I mean is, from memory, you have to be actively showing the tester that you are checking your various mirrors, edging out where appropriate and so on and so forth, that when something completely unexpected happens such as the Micra situation then it is easier to be caught out that in a normal situation.

Anyway, thats a flaw of the system but not much you can do about it.

I'd say reapply in Churchtown, heading up to Sligo seems a bit dramatic even if you'd have to wonder why the pass rate is double there, assuming the information you have is correct.

Bill2673

J_R wrote: »

Sorry, but very respectfully of course it is due to the instructors. The RSA examiners are trained to a very high standard and have regular checks to ensure they maintain an overall consistency in their test markings.

If the RSA receive complaints regarding an examiner they will investigate and remedy if necessary.

Examiners also move around from center to center, here in Sligo had a tester from Dublin only a few weeks ago, lovely man. Doubt very much that the pass rate halved for that week.

I was at a meeting last Saturday where Noel Brett (CEO of RSA) was a guest speaker and was most impressed with his obvious genuine commitment to improving all aspects of road safety, including the driving test.

So, my very honest held belief, of course its the instructors.

I don't understand your point. The question was, why is the pass rate double in Sligo. Are you saying the pass rate is double in Sligo because of the instructors? How are the instructors different in Sligo? More lenient?

J_R

Bill2673 wrote: »

heading up to Sligo seems a bit dramatic

Hi,
In past few months have had five people come to Sligo from Dublin to do the test. I convinced at least that many more not to come, pointed out irrespective of the pass rate, if a person is not ready for the test they will not pass.

All of the five who did come had done the test at least twice in various centers in Dublin. All, without doubt would have failed the test again irrespective what center they used - unless very lucky.

After a few remedial lessons four passed, fifth, her licence was out of date and therefore could not do the test.

Bill2673 wrote: »

I don't understand your point. The question was, why is the pass rate double in Sligo. Are you saying the pass rate is double in Sligo because of the instructors? How are the instructors different in Sligo? More lenient?

Yes, and the answer was because of the instructors.

The examiners are no more lenient in Sligo than any other center

BTW. The RSA will be changing the format of the test, no more "Test Routes", instead the examiner will give them a destination, then up to them to select the route.

ADIDriving

J_R wrote: »

Sorry, but very respectfully of course it is due to the instructors. The RSA examiners are trained to a very high standard and have regular checks to ensure they maintain an overall consistency in their test markings.

If the RSA receive complaints regarding an examiner they will investigate and remedy if necessary.

Examiners also move around from center to center, here in Sligo had a tester from Dublin only a few weeks ago, lovely man. Doubt very much that the pass rate halved for that week.

So, my very honest held belief, of course its the instructors.

I am not saying the inconsistancy is due to the examiners. I would suggest that the main reason is the difficulty of the routes. Driving in Sligo is easier then driving in Dublin for example. I noticed in another post you said that if some of your students had of sat their test in any Dublin test centre they would have failed without a lot of luck.

If quality of instructorsis the main reason for differing pass rates, explain this. Pass rates for 2009 in Churchtown were 42.3% while Rathgar was 30.6. There is only about 3 kilometres between these two centres. The same instructors will have students in both test centres.

J_R

ADIDriving wrote: »

Driving in Sligo is easier then driving in Dublin for example.

Why ? what has Dublin got that Sligo lacks. ??? Sligo test routes have four different speed zones 50 - 60 - 80 - 100, a dual carriageway, roundabouts - both big and small, narrow congested streets, traffic lights, lanes/lane changing, one way streets and the usual council generated messed up junctions, etc etc.

Original post I said

The examiners try to have a level playing field for all and when marking, make allowances for difficult or easy towns/routes. (At least an examiner told me so once)

I noticed in another post you said that if some of your students had of sat their test in any Dublin test centre they would have failed without a lot of luck.

I said

All of the five who did come had done the test at least twice in various centers in Dublin. All, without doubt would have failed the test again irrespective what center they used - unless very lucky.

The quality of instruction they had received was appallingly bad. They were in no way whatsoever ready for a test, in ANY center. However because the test covers so little, with a bit of luck some MIGHT have passed. Which is why the RSA are bringing in changes to the test.

If quality of instructorsis the main reason for differing pass rates, explain this. Pass rates for 2009 in Churchtown were 42.3% while Rathgar was 30.6. There is only about 3 kilometres between these two centres. The same instructors will have students in both test centres.

To be very bluntly honest I could not care less what the pass rates are in the different test centers. I only worry about my own

If a test center has a low pass rate then the RSA would be more than willing to sit down with all concerned to sort out the problems.

Instructors can now contact the RSA through their local representative on the newly formed Stakeholders forum, or contact the local area supervisor directly. Or perhaps have a chat with the examiner. Legally examiners are not allowed to directly discuss a specific driving test with a 3rd party but they may clarify a point in a general discussion !.

Driving instructors should be working with the examiners, both are in the same business of improving driving standards.

Poor workmen blame their tools, driving instructors should not be blaming the examiners or the test route difficulties.

ADIDriving

Quote: Why ? what has Dublin got that Sligo lacks. ??? Sligo test routes have four different speed zones 50 - 60 - 80 - 100, a dual carriageway, roundabouts - both big and small, narrow congested streets, traffic lights, lanes/lane changing, one way streets and the usual council generated messed up junctions, etc etc.

Answer: About a million people and all that goes with that. Ok, Sligo has roads. But multiply the number of people driving those roads and it becomes harder.

Quote: All of the five who did come had done the test at least twice in various centers in Dublin. All, without doubt would have failed the test again irrespective what center they used - unless very lucky.

Answer: Do you take credit for them passing or did they just get very lucky. They could have got lucky with a poor instructor anywhere or have got lucky with a good instructor anywhere.

Quote: If quality of instructors is the main reason for differing pass rates, explain this. Pass rates for 2009 in Churchtown were 42.3% while Rathgar was 30.6. There is only about 3 kilometres between these two centres. The same instructors will have students in both test centres.

Repeated question: I would still like to hear your answer to this question.

Quote: To be very bluntly honest I could not care less what the pass rates are in the different test centers. I only worry about my own

Answer: This is not a good answer or attitude. The pass rate that matters most to me is that of my students. I will help them with their driving regardless where they intend to sit their test. Even if they intend on sitting their test in county (or country) where I don't work.

Quote: If a test center has a low pass rate then the RSA would be more than willing to sit down with all concerned to sort out the problems.

Instructors can now contact the RSA through their local representative on the newly formed Stakeholders forum, or contact the local area supervisor directly. Or perhaps have a chat with the examiner. Legally examiners are not allowed to directly discuss a specific driving test with a 3rd party but they may clarify a point in a general discussion !.

Driving instructors should be working with the examiners, both are in the same business of improving driving standards.

Answer: I don't need your lectures. You are taking to an equal. A fellow ADI. I also don't need to hear pointless anicdotes about the Noel Brett being to commited to road safety.

Quote: Poor workmen blame their tools, driving instructors should not be blaming the examiners or the test route difficulties.

Answer: And I certainly don't need to hear your insults. I don't work in Churchtown or Rathgar, which was the exceptionally low pass rate that I quoted and don't complain about the pass rate in centres I do cover. However, I do give the credit to the students who did the drives and passed.

J_R

ADIDriving wrote: »

Quote: Why ? what has Dublin got that Sligo lacks. ??? Sligo test routes have four different speed zones 50 - 60 - 80 - 100, a dual carriageway, roundabouts - both big and small, narrow congested streets, traffic lights, lanes/lane changing, one way streets and the usual council generated messed up junctions, etc etc.

Answer: About a million people and all that goes with that. Ok, Sligo has roads. But multiply the number of people driving those roads and it becomes harder.

Sligo also has a rush hour or two and only a limited number of vehicles can be on the road at any one time whither in Dublin or Sligo.

Quote: All of the five who did come had done the test at least twice in various centers in Dublin. All, without doubt would have failed the test again irrespective what center they used - unless very lucky.

Answer: Do you take credit for them passing or did they just get very lucky. They could have got lucky with a poor instructor anywhere or have got lucky with a good instructor anywhere.

Of course I take credit, otherwise they would have to rely on luck.


Quote: If quality of instructors is the main reason for differing pass rates, explain this. Pass rates for 2009 in Churchtown were 42.3% while Rathgar was 30.6. There is only about 3 kilometres between these two centres. The same instructors will have students in both test centres.

Repeated question: I would still like to hear your answer to this question.


How would I know. I do not know either center, I do not know the instructors who cover those centers and I certainly do not know the tuition/instructions said instructors give their pupils. However, if I did know the areas and saw a few test report sheets from both centers then I would be able to give an informed opinion as to the reasons. Could hazard a guess or two but it would only be a guess and you or someone else would come back asking me to explain further. - No thanks.

Quote: To be very bluntly honest I could not care less what the pass rates are in the different test centers. I only worry about my own

Answer: This is not a good answer or attitude. The pass rate that matters most to me is that of my students. I will help them with their driving regardless where they intend to sit their test. Even if they intend on sitting their test in county (or country) where I don't work.

When I said I only worry about my own I meant exactly that, MY pass rate, my students generally pass first time so they have a 100% pass rate.

Quote: If a test center has a low pass rate then the RSA would be more than willing to sit down with all concerned to sort out the problems.

Instructors can now contact the RSA through their local representative on the newly formed Stakeholders forum, or contact the local area supervisor directly. Or perhaps have a chat with the examiner. Legally examiners are not allowed to directly discuss a specific driving test with a 3rd party but they may clarify a point in a general discussion !.

Driving instructors should be working with the examiners, both are in the same business of improving driving standards.

Answer: I don't need your lectures. You are taking to an equal. A fellow ADI. I also don't need to hear pointless anicdotes about the Noel Brett being to commited to road safety.

Sorry if it came across as a lecture, reason mentioned Brett, things have changed mightly in the RSA. One big change is that we instructors now have a voice and input.

Quote: Poor workmen blame their tools, driving instructors should not be blaming the examiners or the test route difficulties.

Answer: And I certainly don't need to hear your insults. I don't work in Churchtown or Rathgar, which was the exceptionally low pass rate that I quoted and don't complain about the pass rate in centres I do cover. However, I do give the credit to the students who did the drives and passed.

Again sorry if you feel it was an insult but I do not know what centers you cover. You brought in Rathgar and Churchtown and you did say ( I would suggest that the main reason is the difficulty of the routes. ]