Tkinking of moving OTB....

alan kelly

Hi guys... Am thinking of moving OTB... I like what im doing but want to expand on to hardware. Would still like to use my daw in addition to an analog desk...Have my eye on a toft atb desk and maybe use the apogee ensemble as my convertors... If anyone has any advice or suggestions that would be great.... Cheers.......

Seziertisch

alan kelly wrote: »

Hi guys... Am thinking of moving OTB... I like what im doing but want to expand on to hardware. Would still like to use my daw in addition to an analog desk...Have my eye on a toft atb desk and maybe use the apogee ensemble as my convertors... If anyone has any advice or suggestions that would be great.... Cheers.......

What gear do you have already, Alan? You might be better off getting something else for the money.

alan kelly

Seziertisch wrote: »

What gear do you have already, Alan? You might be better off getting something else for the money.

Alright man... Currently have a lot of plugins on a macbook pro. Have a tlm 103 mic along with a focusrite isa one preamp while using an apogee duet as my interface... I really like the duet so was guessing the ensemble might have been a good choice..

Seziertisch

Mmmm, I wouldn't be looking at a desk unless you are looking to record more than a couple of sources at a time; in which case you would probably be recording drums, which would raise the question of whether or not your drum recording space is up to snuff, which if it isn't you should just go to a studio for a day when you want to record drums.

Otherwise, You should consider some new/different mics (ribbons, dynamics etc.)

Then maybe a decent "colour" pre. Personally I've had very good experiences with Chandler and Phoenix Audio. Though seeing as you are looking at conversion as well, something like the API A2D could be cool.

The results possible with in the box are getting better and better. Stuff like the Slate console emulations is going to become more common. No need to leave the box when a. you don't have any outboard gear you could integrate with a desk and b. though I'm sure the Toft is quite tasty, its not like a vintage Neve desk or something which would dips yours tracks in warm transformer/tube goodness.

madtheory

Yes. Less and less need to "leave the box" for harmonic distortion. If your on PT, Dave Hill's Heat looks like a super solution. I've used the HEDD once, and the plugins quite a bit, they're super.

danjokill

Interesting ...
What would you like to be able to do that you can't already achieve in the box? I am all for mixing outside the box and personally I am happier with the results that i get when out of the box.

SonasRec

I've been tracking everything through a Cranesong HEDD for a few months. It's been the best upgrade I've made to my audio chain. Everything sounds like it's been through a vintage desk & it's much easier to mix all the elements together.

Been using the VCC console emulator as well, & between the two, I won't be looking for a summing desk anytime soon.

If you're thinking of going OTB, make sure you have some good ad/da.

DamagedTrax

you'll need money!

personally if i was going fully OTB i'd have to save a lot of cash first. the old "hardware is better than plugins" arguement is only true beyond a certain point. give me my uad neve 33609 anyday over some cheap hardware compressor.

GOOD :-D


BAD :-(

seannash

DamagedTrax wrote: »

you'll need money!

personally if i was going fully OTB i'd have to save a lot of cash first. the old "hardware is better than plugins" arguement is only true beyond a certain point. give me my uad neve 33609 anyday over some cheap hardware compressor.

what desk do you use damaged?

DamagedTrax

seannash wrote: »

what desk do you use damaged?

we have a tascam digital. its not bad, way too clean though so we have EL and TLA pre-amps to warm things up.

what i do like about it is that it has 24 ins and 64 returns + full daw control.

also has comp/gate and eq on every channel but they're not exactly show stoppers.


if i had a few quid to spare id go for one of those new neve custom 75 desks.



configurable channels and desk layout (dynamics and eq on all, 4 groups, and dual compressor over the master). next year they introduce motorized faders.

options for leather trim and wood colours. very very nice. discussing it with another engineer today and its where we're aiming for. like the look of the small 24 channel version and at the price its not out of reach if things go well over the next few years.

seannash

Sorry for the thread hijack but can i ask how many channels you would use at one time?

Do you route the mics (with other things in the chain)to the desk which then goes to the computer.
On playback does it then go back to the desk to avail of its eqs,compressor etc?

noobish questions i know

DamagedTrax

seannash wrote: »

Sorry for the thread hijack but can i ask how many channels you would use at one time?

Do you route the mics (with other things in the chain)to the desk which then goes to the computer.
On playback does it then go back to the desk to avail of its eqs,compressor etc?

you've got two inputs on a channel. the mic in and the line in, which is the return from DAW normally. on our desk its a little different as its digital and is itself a integrated mixer/interface.

we then record back into DAW with the master out.

for mixing i'd use as many channels as i need to. ill mix in the DAW a lot and group out to the desk to try and stay on the first 24 faders of the desk. the only real gain with actually mixing on a digital desk is having your hands on faders.

i dont think it in itself makes for better sounding mixes but having 24 faders infront of you has a positive psychological affect when mixing.

seannash

DamagedTrax wrote: »

you've got two inputs on a channel. the mic in and the line in, which is the return from DAW normally. on our desk its a little different as its digital and is itself a integrated mixer/interface.

we then record back into DAW with the master out.

cool so taking into account bussing how many channels would you return to the desk for mixing and sending back into your daw(i know it depends on the type of song but in general)

DamagedTrax

well i'd have:

all returns to grouped stereo channels on desk

drums
bass
guitars 1
guitars 2
vox
bk vox
verb 1
verb 2
fx 1
fx 2

so thats 20 channels. leaving me 2 channels spare on that bank of faders. i also then have another 48 spare channels on the next 2 banks for whatever else is needed but the above is my default template.

most of our sessions so far up there have been limited due to budgets but we have a long session coming up soon so im gonna try laying the mix out over the entire desk (or as much as possible)

we record back into the DAW on 1 stereo from the desk master out. and then export to audio from DAW.

seannash

DamagedTrax wrote: »

well i'd have:

all returns to grouped stereo channels on desk

drums
bass
guitars 1
guitars 2
vox
bk vox
verb 1
verb 2
fx 1
fx 2

so thats 20 channels. leaving me 2 channels spare on that bank of faders. i also then have another 48 spare channels on the next 2 banks for whatever else is needed but the above is my default template.

most of our sessions so far up there have been limited due to budgets but we have a long session coming up soon so im gonna try laying the mix out over the entire desk (or as much as possible)

we record back into the DAW on 1 stereo from the desk master out. and then export to audio from DAW.

Thanks man,informative as usual
Sorry for the hijack OP

SeanHurley

DamagedTrax wrote: »

GOOD :-D

+1 on the 33609 it is a fantastic compressor/limiter

My opinion on the whole ITB v OTB has changed a bit over the last year or so. Plugins are getting to a really really high quality level (e.g. the UAD Massive Passive). The Plugins Day organised by Paul in Windmill opened my eyes quite a bit, I was especially taken with the Waves API stuff especially the compressor. I have also recently got the CLA Classic Compressors bundle and I have to say for my money these are among the best sounding compressors I have heard - while the UAD versions of the 1176, la-2a and la-3a might be more "faithful" the CLA versions have an attitude which is something that really was lacking in plugins before.

Having said all that there is something magical about going the analog route.

Why not consider a hybrid route? Something along the lines of a summing box. Look at picking up an Audient Sumo or getting an SSL X-Rack or X-Desk - which are roughly half the price of the toft.

DamagedTrax

SeanHurley wrote: »

Why not consider a hybrid route? Something along the lines of a summing box. Look at picking up an Audient Sumo or getting an SSL X-Rack or X-Desk - which are roughly half the price of the toft.

its definitly the way to go. quality hardware coupled with quality software. best of both worlds.

alan kelly

Cheers guys.. I probably didnt give enough info but i was hoping to go down the route of using analog plus the plugins also... Some of my plugs are quality but there is a sound from top hardware that is hard to beat... Im tryin to get the best of both worlds.....:D

Seziertisch

alan kelly wrote: »

Cheers guys.. I probably didnt give enough info but i was hoping to go down the route of using analog plus the plugins also... Some of my plugs are quality but there is a sound from top hardware that is hard to beat... Im tryin to get the best of both worlds.....:D

That's all well and good, Alan, but a few good quality mics and a good transformer/tube pre to use when recording would be a lot more benefit to you at the moment than a mixing desk.

alan kelly

Thanks for the input guys... Much appreciated... Have a couple of mics and a nice preamp (tlm 102 and focusrite isa one) at the moment so wont be going down that road for a few months.

Had a look at the x desk and excuse my ignorance but it aint got any eq or preamps so would find it kinda hard to use on its own.... I might be miles away from the mark so any input would be great... Cheers..

DamagedTrax

alan kelly wrote: »

Thanks for the input guys... Much appreciated... Have a couple of mics and a nice preamp (tlm 102 and focusrite isa one) at the moment so wont be going down that road for a few months.

Had a look at the x desk and excuse my ignorance but it aint got any eq or preamps so would find it kinda hard to use on its own.... I might be miles away from the mark so any input would be great... Cheers..

dont know about your set-up but for me the x-desk would be just a recording/summing mixer sans eq/comp. its supposed to be a full SSL channel path and has SSL pre-amps so you're paying for that alone. it could never be a "proper" (for want of a better word) mixing desk due to the channel limitations alone.

if you really want a compression/eq solution for the recording stage then have a look at the UAD2 cards. for 2000 you can get some of the best plugins out there and the new "live" mode allows for near zero latency recording thru them... also my go to plugs for mixing.
and i know there's obviously a bit of marketing going on with UAD but when companies like neve, manley and empirical labs license there flagship hardware to them and no-one else. you know they're doing something very very well.

Robin Ball

at the end of the day it doesn't matter wether it's in or out of the box.... it's all about the song!

splitrmx

DamagedTrax wrote: »

dont know about your set-up but for me the x-desk would be just a recording/summing mixer sans eq/comp. its supposed to be a full SSL channel path and has SSL pre-amps so you're paying for that alone. it could never be a "proper" (for want of a better word) mixing desk due to the channel limitations alone.

I got an X-Desk a while ago. It doesn't have pre-amps either, it has gain on each channel but not a proper mic pre-amp. You can sum 16 analogue inputs with it (but only the main eight channels will be able to use the two aux send/returns and have proper faders).

It sounds great but if you want EQ/compression you have to add your own. (eg if you were rich you could buy eight Neve 8801 channel strips and then you've got your own little Neve/SSL hybrid!)