Sleep

danburke

No medical advice or any of that...

Just thought it would be interesting to see how much peoples sleep changed whilst training..

I've noticed that I have gone from 8-9 hours a night to 10!!

ecoli

danburke wrote: »

No medical advice or any of that...

Just thought it would be interesting to see how much peoples sleep changed whilst training..

I've noticed that I have gone from 8-9 hours a night to 10!!

Sleep is the single biggest obstacle for me in my training. When i was training my best this year i found i was sleeping 8-9 hours a night and getting a sneaky nap in also.
Some studies show that sleep deprivation can actually lead to slow down in glycogen synthesis (Basically takes longer for the body to recover from training). When you have high intensity training it is actually the recovery period where you improve so as such your sleep is as important as the training itself

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/sampleworkouts/a/RestandRecovery.htm

menoscemo

I sleep 7.5-8 hours every night.
Since starting training, I definately sleep more soundly (i.e. I nod off when the head hits the pillow), but I don't sleep any more. I used to have mega sleeps at the weekends (10+ hours) but now I can't sleep more than 8 (even after a night out n the booze).

TFBubendorfer

danburke wrote: »

No medical advice or any of that...

Just thought it would be interesting to see how much peoples sleep changed whilst training..

I've noticed that I have gone from 8-9 hours a night to 10!!

Wow, I'd love to sleep that much!
I kept a sleep diary last year and the average was about 7:20 per night.

Woddle

11pm - 7am pretty much monday to sunday, only thing is I get woken by a hungry baby at least once a night.

tunney

11-6 plus being woken.

shels4ever

Midweek can be about 5-6 hours sleep, come the weekend maybe get 7-8.

mitresize5

Concur with the same sleep hours (approx 7) but way more soundly .... a thief could be emptying my pockets at the end of the bed and I wouldnt wake up.

huskerdu

Just moved out of the stage of being woken every night by the toddler
and I have more energy for everything, including training.

Now that I have the luxury of 8 hours unbroken sleep 90% of the time, I am
waking up earlier.

I used to find that a hard or long run left me very tired in the evening, and this
is not happening anymore which might be due to increased fitness, or the
unbroken sleep.

Magnet

I get about 9 hrs on a good night, with all the water I`m trying to drink I`ve to get up at least once to pee so that`s fierce annoying...
If I want a good night`s sleep I`d have to slightly dehydrate myself but only do that when I`m really tired.

RacoonQueen

Usually takes me 1-2 hours to fall asleep and always wake up a few times during the night and prob stay wake about 30 mins each time. Weekends can be just as bad. Got better initially when I began running but it soon got back to normal.

BeepBeep67

I'm only about 6hrs during the week and try to make up a little at the weekend - some of that is down to discipline, but mainly trying to fit everything in.

pgibbo

Typically 11 to anytime between 7 & 8:30. I don't set an alarm so I just wake naturally most of the time. I'd average about 8 hours I'd say.

Brianderunner

Bed at 2/3 am, usually up around midday, unemployment has its benefits, in more ways than one!

RedB

I'd average about 7.5 but could probably do with a bit more. Very undisciplined about going to bed but usually ok for any early starts. End up dragging my ar$e towards the end of the week

Bambaata

Mon, Wed, Fri, Sat - 12 - 8
Sun, Tues, Thurs - 11 - 6:15

Generally aim for 8 hours, never really get beyond 9am.

NeedsTraining

11 - 6 during the week, woken at least one by baby

Weekends - 11 - 7, again woken once.

Feel sleep deprived recently.

liamo123

Ive been a terrible sleeper for years...On average I get about 6 hours per night..

JosDel

liamo123 wrote: »

Ive been a terrible sleeper for years...On average I get about 6 hours per night..

I am the same Liamo, the last 3 years 5-6 hrs a night,

Swanner911

I usually sleep from 10pm - 6am with disturbances in between - 2 children under 3.

At a recent training day with Alistair Brownlee he said that he can train 7 days/week as he tries to get 10 hours sleep/night and an hour nap during some days.

77 hours sleep vs most normal people's 42 - 56.

littlebug

I've gone from 4-5 hours of very broken sleep to 5-6 hours of broken sleep :rolleyes:

Git101

Normally about 7 - 8 hours.
I try to get a few hours nap after a LSR if possible.

MisterDrak

Normally get 8 hours per day. I find on a run day i begin to wilt after 11pm.

Not looking forward to the Xmas late nights after a potential run day, ill be the bloke asleep in the corner...

Abhainn

Interesting thread
Rarely get more than 5 hrs continuous any night. Awoken normally twice every night
Lights out average 11:30. Awake 6:30. No need for alarm either.
And not tired during the day
The older you get the less sleep you need.

Blueskye

11pm - 7.30am usually 8.5 hours a night generally, I love my sleep Have always slept a lot. Don't function too well on 7 hours or less.

MrCreosote

I get about 6.5 hrs/night. Currently midnight to 06:30. Sometimes broken, sometimes not. It's not enough, I'd like an extra hour!
I haven't slept beyond 8am in years, not sure if I could now even if I wanted to.

I'd love to be able to get a good siesta after lunch though...

nomadic

Usually at least 9 hours. 12 - 9.
I'd gladly give up a couple of them for a proper job though.

JosDel

Abhainn wrote: »

Interesting thread
Rarely get more than 5 hrs continuous any night. Awoken normally twice every night
Lights out average 11:30. Awake 6:30. No need for alarm either.
And not tired during the day
The older you get the less sleep you need.

I am the same

BeepBeep67

Got 7.5hrs last nite - I'm wrecked this morning, too much sleep must be bad for you :rolleyes:

RubyK

I'm normally asleep by 10.30 and up at 6.30. But, usually get woken up by the dog around 3am, to be brought out to the garden, and it can take me a while to get back to sleep.

I haven't run properly since DCM and it has definitely affect my quality of sleep. Running makes me switch off much easier, and gives me a better sleep.

I'm also terrible for having vivid dreams/nightmares, which can leave me wrecked the following morning :eek:

shotgunmcos

Bed 11 ish, sleep by 12 ish up at 6.30 ish. So 6-7 hours for me. Does me fine mostly and I usually sleep like a baby. Some mornings I could just turn over for another sleep cycle or two easily. I nap easily but very limited opportunities. I hate hate hate the snooze button but can't resit it either

5 hours sleep last night so I'm functioning, but like a bear with a sore tooth!

9am is a rare lie in and I'd donate the sweetest part of my lunch each day for 20 mins in a hammock or a large bean bag!

huskerdu

Git101 wrote: »

Normally about 7 - 8 hours.
I try to get a few hours nap after a LSR if possible.

That is gloating.
A NAP, you get a NAP. Yes, I am shouting, I am SO jealous.

Peterx

About 3 years ago I started getting an extra hours sleep a night and as if by magic my running got better. Enough sleep is vital for recovery after training, as important as nutrition and nearly as important as the training itself.
So yeah, sleep rocks!

kincsem

I'm not a runner. I bought some kit recently and have jogged a half dozen times in the last week.

I am 60, retired early in 2006. For 15 years I was getting up at 06:00 to get into work at 07:30. I was often very tired not helped by having poker as a hobby and often getting into bed at 04:00. At one stage I played poker nineteen nights in a month.

I bought a book "The Promise of Sleep" by William C Dement, a pioneering sleep researcher for 40 years. He coined the phrase REM (rapid eye movement) as he was the first (or early) documenter of it. The book covers dozens of sleep disorders. He said that people who say there only get a few hours a sleep are not correct. He observed thousands of people as they slept in his sleep laboratory and they invariably under-reported.

From my reading of the book this is what you need to know. Adults need about 8.5 hours sleep a night. If you get less you run up a sleep debt. If you continue to sleep less that 8.5 hours you run up more sleep debt until you can no longer function. According to Dement most of the USA population have about 20 hours sleep debt and function sluggishly. Just like a bank overdraft you need to pay back the debt by sleeping more than 8.5 hours until you are back to zero debt.

Example: You sleep 6 hours Monday to Friday for a debt of (8.5-6.0) x 5 = 12.5 hours. You can pay that off by sleeping 11 hours for 5 days (11.0-8.5) x5 = 12.5, or 9.5 hours for 12.5 days (9.5-8.5) x 12.5=12.5 or any combination you like. People often wake up after a long sleep and still feel tired - they have not yet slept off their sleep debt. An easier way to do it without keeping records is to sleep more that 8.5 hours until suddenly you feel refreshed and cheerful.

He also found that sleep deprivation with alcohol was five times more dangerous than alcohol alone while driving.

This might be my only useful contribution to the running forum.

YFlyer

kincsem wrote: »

I'm not a runner. I bought some kit recently and have jogged a half dozen times in the last week.

I am 60, retired early in 2006. For 15 years I was getting up at 06:00 to get into work at 07:30. I was often very tired not helped by having poker as a hobby and often getting into bed at 04:00. At one stage I played poker nineteen nights in a month.

I bought a book "The Promise of Sleep" by William C Dement, a pioneering sleep researcher for 40 years. He coined the phrase REM (rapid eye movement) as he was the first (or early) documenter of it. The book covers dozens of sleep disorders. He said that people who say there only get a few hours a sleep are not correct. He observed thousands of people as they slept in his sleep laboratory and they invariably under-reported.

From my reading of the book this is what you need to know. Adults need about 8.5 hours sleep a night. If you get less you run up a sleep debt. If you continue to sleep less that 8.5 hours you run up more sleep debt until you can no longer function. According to Dement most of the USA population have about 20 hours sleep debt and function sluggishly. Just like a bank overdraft you need to pay back the debt by sleeping more than 8.5 hours until you are back to zero debt.

Example: You sleep 6 hours Monday to Friday for a debt of (8.5-6.0) x 5 = 12.5 hours. You can pay that off by sleeping 11 hours for 5 days (11.0-8.5) x5 = 12.5, or 9.5 hours for 12.5 days (9.5-8.5) x 12.5=12.5 or any combination you like. People often wake up after a long sleep and still feel tired - they have not yet slept off their sleep debt. An easier way to do it without keeping records is to sleep more that 8.5 hours until suddenly you feel refreshed and cheerful.

He also found that sleep deprivation with alcohol was five times more dangerous than alcohol alone while driving.

This might be my only useful contribution to the running forum.

Half a dozen runs in a week. Our own Tergat would be well impressed with that.

SharkTale

Always in bed before 10pm during the week and awake at 6.30am ( 8.5 hours)

and weekends bed for 9-10 pm and up for LSR at 6am, never slept better since running bug took hold.

When on break from schedule still bed same time but could get up and start cleaning or gardening at 5am :eek:

Wife loves me though

danburke

I usually know I'm getting enough when I wake up before my alarm and i'm not wrecked...so 9 hours is really my minimum

SucCes09

heard Jamie Carragher talk about some of the changes that Houllier brought when he joined Liverpool, and one of the things that stuck was getting to bed at 10pm instead of his normal habit of going at 11pm - you are getting an extra nights sleep (effectively) during the course of the week... just another way to look at it

rainbow kirby

I get 5-6 hours sleep a night during the week, and about 8-9 hours a night at the weekend. I know I don't get enough sleep during the week, and I wish I could squeeze some more in.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

6 hours maybe 7 max, my body is used to it. Weird thing is if I sleep beyond this I tend to feel worse (I know makes no sense). 3 kids, busy job and training tend to force you to sleep less:o

ecoli

kincsem wrote: »

I'm not a runner. I bought some kit recently and have jogged a half dozen times in the last week.

I am 60, retired early in 2006. For 15 years I was getting up at 06:00 to get into work at 07:30. I was often very tired not helped by having poker as a hobby and often getting into bed at 04:00. At one stage I played poker nineteen nights in a month.

I bought a book "The Promise of Sleep" by William C Dement, a pioneering sleep researcher for 40 years. He coined the phrase REM (rapid eye movement) as he was the first (or early) documenter of it. The book covers dozens of sleep disorders. He said that people who say there only get a few hours a sleep are not correct. He observed thousands of people as they slept in his sleep laboratory and they invariably under-reported.

From my reading of the book this is what you need to know. Adults need about 8.5 hours sleep a night. If you get less you run up a sleep debt. If you continue to sleep less that 8.5 hours you run up more sleep debt until you can no longer function. According to Dement most of the USA population have about 20 hours sleep debt and function sluggishly. Just like a bank overdraft you need to pay back the debt by sleeping more than 8.5 hours until you are back to zero debt.

Example: You sleep 6 hours Monday to Friday for a debt of (8.5-6.0) x 5 = 12.5 hours. You can pay that off by sleeping 11 hours for 5 days (11.0-8.5) x5 = 12.5, or 9.5 hours for 12.5 days (9.5-8.5) x 12.5=12.5 or any combination you like. People often wake up after a long sleep and still feel tired - they have not yet slept off their sleep debt. An easier way to do it without keeping records is to sleep more that 8.5 hours until suddenly you feel refreshed and cheerful.

He also found that sleep deprivation with alcohol was five times more dangerous than alcohol alone while driving.

This might be my only useful contribution to the running forum.

This actually can play a major role in running actually.

The sleep debt concept is one that also has an effect on recovery. During sleep recovery and growth only begins to occur during "deep sleep" in which delta brain waves are initiated as opposed to the theta waves when you first fall asleep. If you are sleep deprived however this is inhibited until you have regained the sufficient sleep to allow you body to enter this deep sleep.

So say you need eight hours sleep on average and you enter deep sleep after 3 hours giving you 5 hours of growth and development, (these figures are arbitrary) if you only 2 hours sleep one night the following night you will not enter deep sleep for 4 hours thus giving you only 4 hours of growth and development during your sleep.

This is why many theories believe that it is actual the penultimate night sleep before a race which is the most crucial for being fully recovered and ready for a race

BeepBeep67

An article on getting enough sleep:

What killed Ranjan Das and Lessons for Corporate India

A month ago, many of us heard about the sad demise of Ranjan Das from Bandra, Mumbai. Ranjan, just 42 years of age, was the CEO of SAP-Indian Subcontinent, the youngest CEO of an MNC in India . He was very active in sports, was a fitness freak and a marathon runner. It was common to see him run on Bandra's Carter Road . Just after Diwali, on 21st Oct, he returned home from his gym after a workout, collapsed with a massive heart attack and died. He is survived by his wife and two very young kids.

It was certainly a wake-up call for corporate India . However, it was even more disastrous for runners amongst us. Since Ranjan was an avid marathoner ( in Feb 09, he ran Chennai Marathon at the same time some of us were running Pondicherry Marathon 180 km away ), the question came as to why an exceptionally active, athletic person succumb to heart attack at 42 years of age.

Was it the stress?

A couple of you called me asking about the reasons. While Ranjan had mentioned that he faced a lot of stress, that is a common element in most of our lives. We used to think that by being fit, one can conquer the bad effects of stress. So I doubted if the cause was stress.

The Real Reason

However, everyone missed out a small line in the reports that Ranjan used to make do with 4-5 hours of sleep. This is an earlier interview of Ranjan on NDTV in the program 'Boss' Day Out': Boss' Day Out: Ranjan Das of SAP India.

Here he himself admits that he would love to get more sleep ( and that he was not proud of his ability to manage without sleep, contrary to what others extolled ).

The Evidence

Last week, I was working with a well-known cardiologist on the subject of ‘Heart Disease caused by Lack of Sleep’. While I cannot share the video nor the slides because of confidentiality reasons, I have distilled the key points below in the hope it will save some of our lives.

Some Excerpts:

· Short sleep duration ( <5 or 5-6 hours ) increased risk for high BP by 350% to 500% compared to those who slept longer than 6 hours per night. Paper published in 2009. As you know, high BP kills.

· Young people ( 25-49 years of age ) are twice as likely to get high BP if they sleep less. Paper published in 2006.

· Individuals who slept less than 5 hours a night had a 3-fold increased risk of heart attacks. Paper published in 1999.

· Complete and partial lack of sleep increased the blood concentrations of High sensitivity C-Reactive Protein (hs-cRP), the strongest predictor of heart attacks. Even after getting adequate sleep later, the levels stayed high!!

· Just one night of sleep loss increases very toxic substances in body such as Interleukin-6 (IL-6), Tumour Necrosis Factor-Alpha (TNF-alpha) and C-reactive protein (cRP). They increase risks of many medical conditions, including cancer, arthritis and heart disease. Paper published in 2004.

· Sleeping for <=5 hours per night leads to 39% increase in heart disease. Sleeping for <=6 hours per night leads to 18% increase in heart disease. Paper published in 2006.

Ideal Sleep

For lack of space, I cannot explain here the ideal sleep architecture. But in brief, sleep is composed of two stages: REM ( Rapid Eye Movement ) and non-REM. The former helps in mental consolidation while the latter helps in physical repair and rebuilding. During the night, you alternate between REM and non-REM stages 4-5 times.

The earlier part of sleep is mostly non-REM. During that period, your pituitary gland releases growth hormones that repair your body. The latter part of sleep is more and more REM type.

For you to be mentally alert during the day, the latter part of sleep is more important. No wonder when you wake up with an alarm clock after 5-6 hours of sleep, you are mentally irritable throughout the day (lack of REM sleep). And if you have slept for less than 5 hours, your body is in a complete physical mess ( lack of non-REM sleep ), you are tired throughout the day, moving like a zombie and your immunity is way down ( I’ve been there, done that ).

Finally, as long-distance runners, you need an hour of extra sleep to repair the running related damage.

If you want to know if you are getting adequate sleep, take Epworth Sleepiness Test below.

Interpretation: Score of 0-9 is considered normal while 10 and above abnormal. Many a times, I have clocked 21 out the maximum possible 24, the only saving grace being the last situation, since I don’t like to drive ( maybe, I should ask my driver to answer that line ).

In conclusion:

Barring stress control, Ranjan Das did everything right: eating proper food, exercising and the suprise he was a tea tattler,non smoker,no pan chewing ( marathoning! ), maintaining proper weight. But he missed getting proper and adequate sleep, minimum 8hours. In my opinion, that killed him.
If you are not getting enough sleep ( 8 hours ), you are playing with fire, even if you have low stress.

I always took pride in my ability to work 50 hours at a stretch whenever the situation warranted. But I was so spooked after seeing the scientific evidence last week that since Saturday night, I ensure I do not even set the alarm clock under 8 hours. Now, that is a nice excuse to get some more sleep.
For a human being 8(eight ) hours sleep is mandatory to live a longer life span.

Unfortunately, Ranjan Das is not alone when it comes to missing sleep. Many of us are doing exactly the same, perhaps out of ignorance.

Barbaramc

Since I started training, I haven't been sleeping longer hours (usually 11 -7 during the week / who knows at weekends) but I do tend to fall asleep much quicker. I've always had a good routine when it comes to sleeping....... as its one of my favourite past times!


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Woddle

This week has been superb for sleeping. In bed by 9:30 every night (as the wife is watching that jungle crap) and getting up at 7am

kit3

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

An article on getting enough sleep:

What killed Ranjan Das and Lessons for Corporate India

A month ago, many of us heard about the sad demise of Ranjan Das from Bandra, Mumbai. Ranjan, just 42 years of age, was the CEO of SAP-Indian Subcontinent, the youngest CEO of an MNC in India . He was very active in sports, was a fitness freak and a marathon runner. It was common to see him run on Bandra's Carter Road . Just after Diwali, on 21st Oct, he returned home from his gym after a workout, collapsed with a massive heart attack and died. He is survived by his wife and two very young kids.

It was certainly a wake-up call for corporate India . However, it was even more disastrous for runners amongst us. Since Ranjan was an avid marathoner ( in Feb 09, he ran Chennai Marathon at the same time some of us were running Pondicherry Marathon 180 km away ), the question came as to why an exceptionally active, athletic person succumb to heart attack at 42 years of age.

Was it the stress?

A couple of you called me asking about the reasons. While Ranjan had mentioned that he faced a lot of stress, that is a common element in most of our lives. We used to think that by being fit, one can conquer the bad effects of stress. So I doubted if the cause was stress.

The Real Reason

However, everyone missed out a small line in the reports that Ranjan used to make do with 4-5 hours of sleep. This is an earlier interview of Ranjan on NDTV in the program 'Boss' Day Out': Boss' Day Out: Ranjan Das of SAP India.

Here he himself admits that he would love to get more sleep ( and that he was not proud of his ability to manage without sleep, contrary to what others extolled ).

The Evidence

Last week, I was working with a well-known cardiologist on the subject of ‘Heart Disease caused by Lack of Sleep’. While I cannot share the video nor the slides because of confidentiality reasons, I have distilled the key points below in the hope it will save some of our lives.

Some Excerpts:

· Short sleep duration ( <5 or 5-6 hours ) increased risk for high BP by 350% to 500% compared to those who slept longer than 6 hours per night. Paper published in 2009. As you know, high BP kills.

· Young people ( 25-49 years of age ) are twice as likely to get high BP if they sleep less. Paper published in 2006.

· Individuals who slept less than 5 hours a night had a 3-fold increased risk of heart attacks. Paper published in 1999.

· Complete and partial lack of sleep increased the blood concentrations of High sensitivity C-Reactive Protein (hs-cRP), the strongest predictor of heart attacks. Even after getting adequate sleep later, the levels stayed high!!

· Just one night of sleep loss increases very toxic substances in body such as Interleukin-6 (IL-6), Tumour Necrosis Factor-Alpha (TNF-alpha) and C-reactive protein (cRP). They increase risks of many medical conditions, including cancer, arthritis and heart disease. Paper published in 2004.

· Sleeping for <=5 hours per night leads to 39% increase in heart disease. Sleeping for <=6 hours per night leads to 18% increase in heart disease. Paper published in 2006.

Ideal Sleep

For lack of space, I cannot explain here the ideal sleep architecture. But in brief, sleep is composed of two stages: REM ( Rapid Eye Movement ) and non-REM. The former helps in mental consolidation while the latter helps in physical repair and rebuilding. During the night, you alternate between REM and non-REM stages 4-5 times.

The earlier part of sleep is mostly non-REM. During that period, your pituitary gland releases growth hormones that repair your body. The latter part of sleep is more and more REM type.

For you to be mentally alert during the day, the latter part of sleep is more important. No wonder when you wake up with an alarm clock after 5-6 hours of sleep, you are mentally irritable throughout the day (lack of REM sleep). And if you have slept for less than 5 hours, your body is in a complete physical mess ( lack of non-REM sleep ), you are tired throughout the day, moving like a zombie and your immunity is way down ( I’ve been there, done that ).

Finally, as long-distance runners, you need an hour of extra sleep to repair the running related damage.

If you want to know if you are getting adequate sleep, take Epworth Sleepiness Test below.

Interpretation: Score of 0-9 is considered normal while 10 and above abnormal. Many a times, I have clocked 21 out the maximum possible 24, the only saving grace being the last situation, since I don’t like to drive ( maybe, I should ask my driver to answer that line ).

In conclusion:

Barring stress control, Ranjan Das did everything right: eating proper food, exercising and the suprise he was a tea tattler,non smoker,no pan chewing ( marathoning! ), maintaining proper weight. But he missed getting proper and adequate sleep, minimum 8hours. In my opinion, that killed him.
If you are not getting enough sleep ( 8 hours ), you are playing with fire, even if you have low stress.

I always took pride in my ability to work 50 hours at a stretch whenever the situation warranted. But I was so spooked after seeing the scientific evidence last week that since Saturday night, I ensure I do not even set the alarm clock under 8 hours. Now, that is a nice excuse to get some more sleep.
For a human being 8(eight ) hours sleep is mandatory to live a longer life span.

Unfortunately, Ranjan Das is not alone when it comes to missing sleep. Many of us are doing exactly the same, perhaps out of ignorance.

That's scary - I've had roughly 5/6 hrs interrupted sleep per night since kids came along - oldest is 9 now. Before that social life regularly meant less but not interrupted and just realised I'm sitting here now at this time when I should really be in bed :eek: