How can people ever accept cuts when they do this?

Dannyboy83

I believe cutting expenditure is absolutely essential.
That said, how can it ever be justified with the amount of wasteful spending going on?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1021/1224281621765.html?via=mr

Last year a five-year contract worth €65 million was signed with GoSafe to provide 45 mobile cameras.

€65,000,000 for 45 speed cameras for 5 years =
1.44 million for each camera =
€288,889 per camera per year

€288k per year would pay for 4 gardai for a year and some overtime too.


Quoting a post made on another forum:

http://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/~peoplesr/forums//showpost.php?p=3490461&postcount=6

Xavier McCauliffe, the well known Kerry Businessman who was prosecuted for crashing his helicopter resulting in the death of a young female passenger is the man behind this company. He owned Spectra Photo in Listowel, and sees this as a replacement revenue stream now that everyone is gone digital and photo processing is extinct. He is also a committed Fianna Fáil supporter.

The contract was awarded by the department of justice which is headed up by Fianna Fáil minister, Dermot Aherne.

ei.sdraob

I am surprised they haven't done what they do in US

where private companies install and maintain speed and red light cameras for towns/cities etc and in return share a % of the profit from these with the council etc

hey theres a business plan

Sleepy

But that wouldn't make their mates (and political donors) nearly as wealthy...

ardmacha

I am pretty sure these cameras can also raise revenue, and they may identify as many lawbreakers as 4 Gardaí, so this is not the best example to use.

Nijmegen

It's not like they weren't at this in the 1970's, 1980's, 1990's and 2000's and people didn't return them to the Dail.

Don't think FG/Lab will be any better. They have their special interests to protect.

Will be interesting to watch the board changes in all the quangos following election.

ei.sdraob

Sleepy wrote: »

But that wouldn't make their mates (and political donors) nearly as wealthy...

Your point :P im surprised FF havent copped onto this nice little money-earner agreement

oh I better shutup and stop giving them ideas.

Sleepy

ardmacha wrote: »

I am pretty sure these cameras can also raise revenue, and they may identify as many lawbreakers as 4 Gardaí, so this is not the best example to use.

They're mobile cameras so we're simply paying a company to provide 4 non-Gardaí to operate them whilst a FF supporter creams the difference between their wages and a member of AGS had the project been kept within the public sector.

bladespin

Nearly 500 suicides last year, around 300 killed on the roads, that money would be put to better use in so many ways.

deandean

Well, I'd far prefer to see the money going to McCauliffe and not some Spanish/Belgian/whatever consortium.

But yes, 65 million is an absolutely obscene amount of our taxpayer's money to throw into a pit. And not-for-profit cameras my Aras, wait till you see where they go shooting fish in barrels.

The money would IMO be far better spent on improving road and junction layouts (which is where most accidents happen). e.g. take 650 accident black spots realigned for 100K each - that'll save lives and would lead to a net gain for all motorists.

Then again the country can't afford anything at the moment. We need to confiscate the Government's cheque book.

Gumbo

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I am surprised they haven't done what they do in US

where private companies install and maintain speed and red light cameras for towns/cities etc and in return share a % of the profit from these with the council etc

hey theres a business plan

by paying the companies a fixed fee irrelevant of the amount of people they catch ensures that they dont go out a "shoot fish in the barrel" as such.

we all creep over the limit at times, so this hopefully will stop them issuing fines for 1000's of people doing 71 in a 70 zone etc

Dannyboy83

kceire wrote: »

by paying the companies a fixed fee irrelevant of the amount of people they catch ensures that they dont go out a "shoot fish in the barrel" as such.

we all creep over the limit at times, so this hopefully will stop them issuing fines for 1000's of people doing 71 in a 70 zone etc

In order for the project to break even, the cameras need to issue 450 fines per day - 365 days per year - for 5 years

Let the stealth taxation commence!

Essexboy

Is not this a bigger waste of our money?

"The Committee also heard that the bulk of spend in Enterprise Ireland in 2008 went on administration costs."
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1111/training.html
Minister for Enterprise etc. at the time was none other than "Sweary Mary" Coughlan. What a surprise!

jimmycrackcorm

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

€65,000,000 for 45 speed cameras for 5 years =
1.44 million for each camera =
€288,889 per camera per year

€288k per year would pay for 4 gardai for a year and some overtime too.

Can 4 Gardai reduce the incidence of speeding the same way as 45 speed cameras can?

They won't raise revenue (regardless of popular opinion that it is a revenue generation exercise). Fortunately it is an optional tax so nobody should be overly concerned (you keep within the limits and you are ok).

There's no doubt though that such a widespread implementation of speed cameras will improve the road death and accident figures.

eden_my_ass

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Can 4 Gardai reduce the incidence of speeding the same way as 45 speed cameras can?

They won't raise revenue (regardless of popular opinion that it is a revenue generation exercise). Fortunately it is an optional tax so nobody should be overly concerned (you keep within the limits and you are ok).

There's no doubt though that such a widespread implementation of speed cameras will improve the road death and accident figures.

Shouldn't that be equating 4 Gardai to each camera, in which case its hard to argue that the camera is better value for money. By the figures above the same contract might be worth 180 new garda (I know its all estimated) which would be of far more benefit to this country than speed cameras.

Or the money could be pumped into proper driver education and/or re-education, and no I don't mean pathetic RSA ads

Sleepy

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

There's no doubt though that such a widespread implementation of speed cameras will improve the road death and accident figures.

I'm pretty sure I've seen figures that dramatically contradict that assertion before. Care to back it up?

Dannyboy83

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Can 4 Gardai reduce the incidence of speeding the same way as 45 speed cameras can?

Its 4 handsomely paid Gardai for the price of 1 speed camera.
If you want to compare 45 cameras, you are talking about 180 Gardaí!

They won't raise revenue (regardless of popular opinion that it is a revenue generation exercise). Fortunately it is an optional tax so nobody should be overly concerned (you keep within the limits and you are ok).

I am cynical as regards this, given that I've seen how it has been implemented in the past.

Also, police cars/motorbikes must be visible in areas where speed cameras are being operated, to act as a deterrent but also for safety reasons.
There was a documentary 2 years ago by the BBC which showed what happens when they attempt to hide speed cameras ............pile ups.

There's no doubt though that such a widespread implementation of speed cameras will improve the road death and accident figures.

Assuming they are utilised in the correct areas I agree.
I don't expect they will be tho, I expect they will be operated in the "sweet spots".

jimmycrackcorm

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Its 4 handsomely paid Gardai for the price of 1 speed camera.
If you want to compare 45 cameras, you are talking about 180 Gardaí!



I am cynical as regards this, given that I've seen how it has been implemented in the past.

Also, police cars/motorbikes must be visible in areas where speed cameras are being operated, to act as a deterrent but also for safety reasons.
There was a documentary 2 years ago by the BBC which showed what happens when they attempt to hide speed cameras ............pile ups.



Assuming they are utilised in the correct areas I agree.
I don't expect they will be tho, I expect they will be operated in the "sweet spots".

4 extra Gardai also need patrol cars, extra speed cameras etc.

I'd be concerned about the new speed detection vans not having high visiblity as a deterrent. Even operating in the "sweet spots" has a positive effect as the more people see these vans, the more the awareness of speed traps. I have slowed down myself over the years simply because of observing normal Garda speed checks every time I drove on the N2 Monaghan.

I think there is a difference in the approach when you look at how the Gardai have publicised on their website the road sections that will specifically be targetted.

The argument about hidden traps also applies to fixed cameras which cause sudden slow-downs when people suddenly come across them.
.

Ogham

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I've seen figures that dramatically contradict that assertion before. Care to back it up?

This 2004 Report shows 40% fewer deaths or serious injuries.
http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/1338/

On costs - the cameras work out at €180 euro per hour of monitoring.
From Here http://www.towns-ireland.com/locations-of-speed-cameras-in-ireland/
Not sure if that is good value for money or not?

TheRealPONeil

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I believe cutting expenditure is absolutely essential.
That said, how can it ever be justified with the amount of wasteful spending going on?

It's deeper than that Dan

You must have been asleep when this was started ...

cut the minimum wage
cut education
cut any social service you can think of ..
but what about the mortgages Dan, think of the mortgages !!!

and the killer is ...

"We suggest that as there are three parties to the problem – the banks, the regulator (ie the State) and the individual – these three must also be part of the solution"

here we go - another good rolling of the ever acquiescent Irish tax payer.

Mylow

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

€288k per year would pay for 4 gardai for a year and some overtime too.


Quoting a post made on another forum:

You dont have to pay camera vans pensions, sickness etc etc. I would hate to think of what the real cost for Gardai is.

Mister men

Heard a guy from the AA on the radio this morning. "There will be zero leeway with these cameras. If you are 1km over the allotted speed they will automatically bill you for being over the limit". I expect a lot more road deaths and accidents because of these things as drivers spend more time looking at their speedo than the road ahead as they try to remain under the limit.

Dannyboy83

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mobile-speed-van-destroyed-in-dundalk-arson-attack-483323.html

26/11/2010 - 08:45:01
A mobile speed van has been completely destroyed in an arson attack in Dundalk, Co Louth this morning.

The incident happened just before 5am when the van was carrying out a traffic survey on the Dundalk to Carrickmacross road.

Gardaií say the front window of the van was broken. It is not yet clear how the fire was started.

The driver, who was uninjured in the incident, was alerted by the smoke.

Surprise, surrrrrrrpirrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiisssssseeeeeeee

Testament that this government have actually driven the people to the point that they will firebomb.

It looks to me like the Irish populace is at breaking point.
Is it any wonder?

Shelli2

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Testament that this government have actually driven the people to the point that they will firebomb.

One down, 44 to go.

Padkir

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

In order for the project to break even, the cameras need to issue 450 fines per day - 365 days per year - for 5 years

Let the stealth taxation commence!

Even if this figure is true, and I couldn't be bothered trying to work it out myself, with the amount of traffic on our roads every day, 450 fines a day isn't that much!
I drive a truck 10 hours a day for a few months of the year, and I'd say on average I see about 10-12 people who I would like to see caught, and thats just a tiny area of mayo/galway, so the figure is not high!!

gizmo555

Shelli2 wrote: »

One down, 44 to go.

Not funny - the driver of that van could easily have been killed and the fact that he escaped wasn't for want of trying by these "protesters". Do we really want Greek-style burning alive of ordinary workers as a response to speed cameras?

PCPhoto

Shelli2 wrote: »

One down, 44 to go.

wishful thinking - this will more than likely have to be replaced ....by the taxpayer !!

I'd prefer to see more gardai on the roads - the gardai do more than stop road deaths.


if the government wanted to do a cheaper version of the "speed cameras" - why not create a website where the user (general public) - would upload images, pictures/video of people breaking the law.(ie. breaking red lights, parking on double yellows etc etc)

if a successful prosecution is brought about the person who uploaded the original file would earn a percentage of any fine issued or minimum of €100 per conviction.

there would have to be strong penalties if images were doctored or files were created to stop people from picking on people they don't like etc.

I already have the full concept written and filed (still running through a few legal heads before proposal is brought forward) - pity people in government cant use common sense approach to cracking down on crime.

instead of "big brother" (the state) is watching you .... it would be "your family, friends and neighbours" are watching you - so people breaking the law would live in fear of getting caught and would obey the rules.

One of the main reasons why people break the laws - simply is because there is little or no enforcement - and - very little chance of getting caught..... let the people govern themselves.

Padkir

PCPhoto wrote: »

if the government wanted to do a cheaper version of the "speed cameras" - why not create a website where the user (general public) - would upload images, pictures/video of people breaking the law.(ie. breaking red lights, parking on double yellows etc etc)
QUOTE]

Because everyone drives around with a camera ready to take pictures of people breaking red lights...! This will not work,. With the utmost respect don't be so delusional!!

Dannyboy83

Padkir wrote: »

Even if this figure is true, and I couldn't be bothered trying to work it out myself, with the amount of traffic on our roads every day, 450 fines a day isn't that much!
I drive a truck 10 hours a day for a few months of the year, and I'd say on average I see about 10-12 people who I would like to see caught, and thats just a tiny area of mayo/galway, so the figure is not high!!

I'd be all for them if they were used in the correct areas and used to save lives.
They're not tho, they're used in the sweet spots, just a cash cow.
Just another stealth tax.

Not only do we now have OECD average tax rates, but we also have the stealth taxes.

gizmo555 wrote: »

Not funny - the driver of that van could easily have been killed and the fact that he escaped wasn't for want of trying by these "protesters". Do we really want Greek-style burning alive of ordinary workers as a response to speed cameras?

I don't condone attempted murder of course, nor do I know if the protestor/arsonist knew if the van was occupied.
On the other hand, I do understand this outburst of rage and believe this is only the start of it.
Like Nigel Farage said - when you leave people with only Nationalism/Despair, what do you expect?

Padkir

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I'd be all for them if they were used in the correct areas and used to save lives.
They're not tho, they're used in the sweet spots, just a cash cow.
Just another stealth tax.

Not only do we now have OECD average tax rates, but we also have the stealth taxes.

But they're being brought in where its know that the majority of people are speeding. Ok i dont agree with certain areas, e.g. 50kph zone coming into Claregalway from Tuam side, but they have published where they will be! We know exactly where and where not the cameras can be, so if you still get caught you have no-one to blame but yourself!:rolleyes:

Buford T Justice

PCPhoto wrote: »

let the people govern themselves.

All you'll get there is vigilant justice

I.S.T.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Can 4 Gardai reduce the incidence of speeding the same way as 45 speed cameras can?

They won't raise revenue (regardless of popular opinion that it is a revenue generation exercise). Fortunately it is an optional tax so nobody should be overly concerned (you keep within the limits and you are ok).

There's no doubt though that such a widespread implementation of speed cameras will improve the road death and accident figures.

There is lots of doubt that speed cameras improve road safety. In fact there is a lot of research which shows they cause road crashes:

Speed cameras 'can cause accidents'
Speed cameras have caused 28,000 accidents in a decade
The £1m-a-year motorway speed camera that is causing accidents

Padkir

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

There is lots of doubt that speed cameras improve road safety. In fact there is a lot of research which shows they cause road crashes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2212479.stm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1300830/Speed-cameras-caused-28-000-accidents-decade.html
The £1m-a-year motorway speed camera that is causing accidents

But the first articles recommendations are what is being done here, not giving the precise location, just telling you what stretch of road they can be on at any given time? So there is no need to brake suddenly, just ease up when you know you're coming near where they are!

I.S.T.

Padkir wrote: »

But the first articles recommendations are what is being done here, not giving the precise location, just telling you what stretch of road they can be on at any given time? So there is no need to brake suddenly, just ease up when you know you're coming near where they are!

People will jam on when they see the van, I see it all the time.

Padkir

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

People will jam on when they see the van, I see it all the time.

But if they were going under the speed limit they have nothing to worry about! You can't hold them responsible for some people being stupid!!

thebaldsoprano

Not everyone appears to have noticed that there's a recession going on. I went to my local council office to check the register on Wednesday (can't use the website because they made a few typos) and its basement is being redeveloped into this:



There's no shortage exhibition/theatre spaces in the area already - this is just baffling.

aliveandkicking

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Not everyone appears to have noticed that there's a recession going on. I went to my local council office to check the register on Wednesday (can't use the website because they made a few typos) and its basement is being redeveloped into this:



There's no shortage exhibition/theatre spaces in the area already - this is just baffling.

I think that's the Wood Quay venue. That's been finished almost two years now. You're implying the council are spending money on it at the moment? It's a tourist attraction more than anything else with the city walls exhibition and actually makes the council money when it's hired out for seminars.

http://www.woodquayvenue.ie/index.php

thebaldsoprano

aliveandkicking wrote: »

I think that's the Wood Quay venue. That's been finished almost two years now. You're implying the council are spending money on it at the moment? It's a tourist attraction more than anything else with the city walls exhibition and actually makes the council money when it's hired out for seminars.

http://www.woodquayvenue.ie/index.php

My mistake if that's true, although there's still building work going on there. Maybe it's for something else. Also, the images I posted, and on the link you provided are all computer generated. Surely if it's finished they'd have photos?

gizmo555

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I don't condone attempted murder of course, nor do I know if the protestor/arsonist knew if the van was occupied.

On the principle that one is presumed to intend the reasonably foreseeable consequences of one's actions, whether the arsonist knew the van was occupied or just didn't take care to check is immaterial.

I presume the Greek protesters didn't "intend" to burn a pregnant woman alive, but they did . . .

aliveandkicking

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

My mistake if that's true, although there's still building work going on there. Maybe it's for something else. Also, the images I posted, and on the link you provided are all computer generated. Surely if it's finished they'd have photos?

I've been in it at a company seminar at the beginning of the year. It's fully finished, opened in 2009 I believe. I'm unaware of the building work going on now, it must be something else but the Wood Quay Venue is definitely finished well over a year at this stage.

Dannyboy83

gizmo555 wrote: »

On the principle that one is presumed to intend the reasonably foreseeable consequences of one's actions, whether the arsonist knew the van was occupied or just didn't take care to check is immaterial.

As I said, I don't condone the attack, but I am not surprised by it.

I presume the Greek protesters didn't "intend" to burn a pregnant woman alive, but they did . . .

Just as Speed Cameras are designed to prevent car accidents, but when they're operated as stealth tax machines, they don't...............we're getting warm.

gizmo555

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

As I said, I don't condone the attack

That doesn't tally with your thanks to this tasteless and objectionable poster:

Shelli2 wrote: »

One down, 44 to go.

thebaldsoprano

aliveandkicking wrote: »

I've been in it at a company seminar at the beginning of the year. It's fully finished, opened in 2009 I believe. I'm unaware of the building work going on now, it must be something else but the Wood Quay Venue is definitely finished well over a year at this stage.

This was my mistake alright - wrong quay! The building work, which includes a new facade, is happening on the Wellington Quay offices. The council staff look to have been moved to the rather plush Ormond Building while this is going on.

Dannyboy83

gizmo555 wrote: »

That doesn't tally with your thanks to this tasteless and objectionable poster:

The poster's comment amused me.
Therefore I thanked the poster.

As clearly stated here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69225385&postcount=28
I don't condone attempted murder of course, nor do I know if the protestor/arsonist knew if the van was occupied.

Ergo, I'm neither in favour of murder, nor the destruction of property.

Are you asserting that I condone the attack?

PeakOutput

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

In order for the project to break even, the cameras need to issue 450 fines per day - 365 days per year - for 5 years

or save one life

Shelli2

To the posters calling me tasteless, objectionable and not funny.....you need to check the batteries in your sarcasm detectors.

I do not condone any attacks on any person nor do I condone arson or vandalism.

I do however consider these mobile speed cameras to be a questionable spendature in the current climate, especially condisering how high the cost seems. And now that they are being targeted by thugs, which IMO was forseeable, they are an even bigger waste and higher cost.

Dannyboy83

PeakOutput wrote: »

or save one life

Which a guard could do for 1/4 of the same cost (tho not making a FF crony called Xavier McCaulife wealthy & would remove valuable future political donations from FF pockets - what FF have done is not far short of directly stealing money from the exchequer for themselves.)

Max Power1

PeakOutput wrote: »

or save one life

emotion/sentiment aside, €65million =/= 1 life.

Red Actor

PeakOutput wrote: »

or save one life

The biggest savings in road safety, including new motorways, are costs for accidents and lives - http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/5830-0.pdf for the values calculted. at €2m per the perented costs would mount quickly (if you can show that the cameras were responsible for a reduction in deaths).

Leiva

Watch it til the end , Dermots face speaks a 1000 words ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E8F_mL1nug

Dannyboy83

These are the odd couple who put through blasphemy legislation and went into hiding in Malta when there was no grit/rock salt for our roads last Winter.

Not hard to see why the country is falling into the Atlantic when you have twits like them in charge.