Is Ireland still a 1st world country, can we afford to be.

ihatetractors

Now as a young student facing emmigration, i would just like to know.
-Our Govt are corupt (Bertie for example)
-Our health service is good, for a 3rd world countries standard. I have to direct family members involved and they certanly agree
-Intrest rates are getting so high now, even with ECB or IMF we'll never afford to pay these bonds. (just to clarify, we'll have to pay say at 9% over 10 years an extra 90% on the total we borrowed, is that right??)
-As for manufactoring that made us wealthy in the 90's- early 00's/ isn't that all going china/ eastern europes way? So unless we can make like the germans and become ubber effiecent in 1-2 years, which realy isnt possible?, just how many more of the jobs we have now, can we keep?
-If we do manage to reduce our spending, won't that in theory lead to social collapse? -Gardai will be too underfunded to be effective
-Health services are already at breaking point
-Social welfare is simply not sustainable at present levels,
-Young people's simply leaving, serious pensions bill in 20-30 years anyway with too few 'workers' to foot the bill?

ArtSmart

ihatetractors wrote: »

Now as a young student facing emmigration, i would just like to know.
-Our Govt are corupt (Bertie for example)
-Our health service is good, for a 3rd world countries standard. I have to direct family members involved and they certanly agree
-Intrest rates are getting so high now, even with ECB or IMF we'll never afford to pay these bonds. (just to clarify, we'll have to pay say at 9% over 10 years an extra 90% on the total we borrowed, is that right??)
-As for manufactoring that made us wealthy in the 90's- early 00's/ isn't that all going china/ eastern europes way? So unless we can make like the germans and become ubber effiecent in 1-2 years, which realy isnt possible?, just how many more of the jobs we have now, can we keep?
-If we do manage to reduce our spending, won't that in theory lead to social collapse? -Gardai will be too underfunded to be effective
-Health services are already at breaking point
-Social welfare is simply not sustainable at present levels,
-Young people's simply leaving, serious pensions bill in 20-30 years anyway with too few 'workers' to foot the bill?

say wha?

The only thing which should concern you is having fun abroad - and as much experience in all areas of life as you can.

if there's a country left when you get back, grand. if not - meh.

djpbarry

ihatetractors wrote: »

Our Govt are corrupt...

Relative to?

ihatetractors wrote: »

Our health service is good, for a 3rd world countries standard.

Our health service is pretty decent by OECD standards. Our health service is excellent by 3rd world standards.

ihatetractors wrote: »

As for manufactoring that made us wealthy in the 90's- early 00's/ isn't that all going china/ eastern europes way? So unless we can make like the germans and become ubber effiecent in 1-2 years, which realy isnt possible?

It’s not about efficiency, it’s about innovation. Germany is still an industrial powerhouse because they don’t just manufacture, they also design and implement. China just manufactures (pretty much). As did Ireland.

ihatetractors wrote: »

If we do manage to reduce our spending, won't that in theory lead to social collapse?

No, but failure to reduce our spending quite possibly will. The government is pumping a massive amount of cash into our economy at present (in the form of public sector wages and social welfare payments) – reducing this by a modest amount is not going to result in a cash shortage.

southsiderosie

The only way you can even begin to call Ireland a third world country is if you have never actually been to one.

Just a few points of comparison:

- Public transport doesn't consist of 40 year old school buses
- You can drink the water
- If something bad happens, the police will show up (eventually) and will not demand 100 quid for doing so
- Packs of seven year olds aren't sleeping on the streets and selling gum to survive
- Electricity comes from the utility company, not a tapped line that 40 other families share
- Having a toilet in the house is not considered a luxury
- Giving birth is not gambling with your life

And that's just to name a few.

Yes, things in Ireland could be better. But they could also be far, far worse.

gollem_1975

and this post just a week after the UN report stating Ireland was in the top 5 countries in the world to live.

zig

I dont think its unreasonable to say that while we are at the moment a first world country, we might be very close to being a second world country.

If we do stay a first world country, we will definitely be a poor first world country.
Theres plenty of stuff in this country going on that will probably soon end for alot of people.
Just simple things people take for granted
-chinese or pizza at the weekend
-the middle class being able to afford a decent enough newish car
-relatively expensive clothing
-foreign holiday, I can the boom in the our coastal towns coming over the next few years
-decent smartphones wont grow much further, people that have them now will enjoy them.
-non essentials when shopping,
-fancy dinners in restaurants
-buying xbox games for kids or whatnot wont be standard and taken for granted
-going out drinking will become a tighter affair than it already is, at least in the 80s the pints were cheap.(even relative to inflation)

I dont think losing all the above makes us not first world, but we just wont have the good life, it will be a normal life. This will gradually happen id say, as taxes go up and wages come down.

I think what really sums things up is Iceland not being able to afford McDonalds. You will even find McDonalds in Thailand.

johnnyjb

zig wrote: »

I dont think its unreasonable to say that while we are at the moment a first world country, we might be very close to being a second world country.

If we do stay a first world country, we will definitely be a poor first world country.
Theres plenty of stuff in this country going on that will probably soon end for alot of people.
Just simple things people take for granted
-chinese or pizza at the weekend
-the middle class being able to afford a decent enough newish car
-relatively expensive clothing
-foreign holiday, I can the boom in the our coastal towns coming over the next few years
-decent smartphones wont grow much further, people that have them now will enjoy them.
-non essentials when shopping,
-fancy dinners in restaurants
-buying xbox games for kids or whatnot wont be standard and taken for granted
-going out drinking will become a tighter affair than it already is, at least in the 80s the pints were cheap.(even relative to inflation)

I dont think losing all the above makes us not first world, but we just wont have the good life, it will be a normal life. This will gradually happen id say, as taxes go up and wages come down.

I think what really sums things up is Iceland not being able to afford McDonalds. You will even find McDonalds in Thailand.

Id disagree , people will try to do those things. Not every one is broke.

Im no economist but i know we are deff not a third world country (yet)

Surely it would take something big like a war for us to get back to them terms. I hope im not be too presumptuous

southsiderosie

zig wrote: »

I dont think its unreasonable to say that while we are at the moment a first world country, we might be very close to being a second world country.

If we do stay a first world country, we will definitely be a poor first world country.
Theres plenty of stuff in this country going on that will probably soon end for alot of people.
Just simple things people take for granted
-chinese or pizza at the weekend
-the middle class being able to afford a decent enough newish car
-relatively expensive clothing
-foreign holiday, I can the boom in the our coastal towns coming over the next few years
-decent smartphones wont grow much further, people that have them now will enjoy them.
-non essentials when shopping,
-fancy dinners in restaurants
-buying xbox games for kids or whatnot wont be standard and taken for granted
-going out drinking will become a tighter affair than it already is, at least in the 80s the pints were cheap.(even relative to inflation)

I dont think losing all the above makes us not first world, but we just wont have the good life, it will be a normal life. This will gradually happen id say, as taxes go up and wages come down.

I think what really sums things up is Iceland not being able to afford McDonalds. You will even find McDonalds in Thailand.

How are you defining poor?

What went on in Ireland over the last 15 years was an orgy of out-of-control consumption. The 'norm' in many rich countries is not for 30 year old construction workers to drive BMWs and own second homes in other countries. That's what 55 year olds with a 30-year career behind them do.

Bringing a lunch to work, taking a family vacation in a 5 year old used car, only going to restaurants on special occasions, and using consumer goods until they BREAK (rather than replacing them every 6 months) used to be the norm in most wealthy countries. It still is in countries like Germany, where people may enjoy their holidays, but are generally very careful with their money. And nobody would call Germany anything but a first world country.

ardmacha

Even in the current year Ireland is similar in prosperity to say France, a place that is very definitely a first world country. With the need to cutback we may slip a little, but talk of third world is nonsense. Incomes will come under pressure, but the prices of things will too. If that fancy dinner in a restaurant becomes an Italian price rather than an Irish one circa 2007 then we might still be able to afford it.

And nobody would call Germany anything but a first world country.

Perhaps. But since they cannot get a proper smoking ban going they are clearly an uncivilised one.

jmayo

ihatetractors wrote: »

Now as a young student facing emmigration, i would just like to know.
...
-As for manufactoring that made us wealthy in the 90's- early 00's/ isn't that all going china/ eastern europes way? So unless we can make like the germans and become ubber effiecent in 1-2 years, which realy isnt possible?, just how many more of the jobs we have now, can we keep?
...

First off why the username ?
Whta's wrong with tractors ? :mad::mad::mad:
Tractors are wonderful pieces of technology and I will introduce you to a few posters from Farming and Forestry to set you straight on that.

I don't what age you are or what books you ahve read we were never an industrial poiwerhosue nor manufacturing powerhouse.
Our boomin the 90s, early 2000s was pretty much down to FDI and technology companies coming in here.
This actualyl started way back in the 70s and the addition of Microsoft, Dell, Intel, Gateway, HP, etc from late 80s on gave new impetous.

We are not a third world country, we are first world although we are a poor example of one.
Some of us clap ourselves on the back because we are great compared to other sh**e 1st world countries, wheras I would say we should compare ourselves to the good comparable ones like Finland, New Zealand, etc.

djpbarry wrote: »

Relative to?
Our health service is pretty decent by OECD standards. Our health service is excellent by 3rd world standards.
It’s not about efficiency, it’s about innovation. Germany is still an industrial powerhouse because they don’t just manufacture, they also design and implement. China just manufactures (pretty much). As did Ireland.
No, but failure to reduce our spending quite possibly will. The government is pumping a massive amount of cash into our economy at present (in the form of public sector wages and social welfare payments) – reducing this by a modest amount is not going to result in a cash shortage.

Ehh China have been backward engineering much like Japan and Sth Korea started off doing.
Give them another few years and hey presto.

southsiderosie wrote: »

The only way you can even begin to call Ireland a third world country is if you have never actually been to one.

- You can drink the water

Happened to have spent some time in Galway a couple of years ago ??? :rolleyes:

southsiderosie wrote: »

- If something bad happens, the police will show up (eventually) and will not demand 100 quid for doing so

Yeah it's just that the legal system lets people walk after slap on wrist.

southsiderosie wrote: »

Yes, things in Ireland could be better. But they could also be far, far worse.

See above.
Why do we always have to compare ourselves to the worst and aim so low.

catbear

The main reason McDonalds pulled out of Iceland was that a lot of the ingredients had to be imported and they couldn't compete with the local outlets that were doing well anyway with local produce. In most other countries Mcdonalds are able to source locally.

Sometimes the local version is better than the imported, wallmart pulled out of Germany because it couldn't compete against Lidl and Aldi.

Ireland has a lot of impoverished thinking but materially it is not a third world country.

jmayo

catbear wrote: »

The main reason McDonalds pulled out of Iceland was that a lot of the ingredients had to be imported and they couldn't compete with the local outlets that were doing well anyway with local produce. In most other countries Mcdonalds are able to source locally.

Sometimes the local version is better than the imported, wallmart pulled out of Germany because it couldn't compete against Lidl and Aldi.

Ireland has a lot of impoverished thinking but materially it is not a third world country.

Hey Iceland is looking more appealing everyday.

ardmacha

The main reason McDonalds pulled out of Iceland was that a lot of the ingredients had to be imported and they couldn't compete with the local outlets that were doing well anyway with local produce. In most other countries Mcdonalds are able to source locally

Indeed the beef for McDonalds in Iceland was probably sourced in Ireland!!
I guess they sourced the ice locally. :rolleyes:

southsiderosie

jmayo wrote: »

First off why the username ?

Happened to have spent some time in Galway a couple of years ago ??? :rolleyes:

Yeah it's just that the legal system lets people walk after slap on wrist.

See above.
Why do we always have to compare ourselves to the worst and aim so low.

I don't think that Ireland should compare itself at all, that is my point.

And while water can be manky in spots in all countries (the water is terrible in Barcelona, for example), its nothing like, say, Central America.

And yes the Irish legal system may have its problems. But it has a SYSTEM. It's also a democracy where these kinds of issues could be addressed if anyone could be arsed to do it. That is not the case if you live in a tribal area of Waziristan or some other god-forsaken place.

southsiderosie

ardmacha wrote: »

Perhaps. But since they cannot get a proper smoking ban going they are clearly an uncivilised one.

Meh. I prefer the Spanish version where bars can decide if they want to ban smoking or not, rather than a blanket ban. A little less nanny state civilization is not a bad thing.

srsly78

I'm very sorry, but posts like the OP make me despair for the country. Ignoring the spelling and grammar, the apalling lack of understanding causes me much consternation.

Please understand this: THE YIELDS ON BONDS ARE FIXED WHEN THEY ARE ISSUED. THE YIELD NEVER CHANGES.

The "bond yield" everyone is currently panicking over is the effective yield on the SECONDARY MARKET. This is where bond holders decide to sell their bonds at a discount to other people. If you sell the bond for a discount, the new owner effectively gets a higher yield. Since we are not issuing new bonds at the moment, it is NOT costing us more money!

This is shockingly misunderstood by pretty much everyone. Mods please consider publicising this fact as a sticky. Please accept my apologies if I have not explained it well enough,

noxqs

You are correct about bond yields.

However, it is troubling, as the yields reflect the current yield the market expects of future bond auctions. This makes refinancing debt more expensive. In light of the required liquidity in the upcoming budget, this can have devastating long term effects.

I-Shot-Jr

I was in India two weeks ago, based on that experience, excuse me if I dismiss the OP's original post as garbage.

noxqs

I take solace in the fact, that since ancient times, people have always said the outlook is grim and the best days are over.

Its never really true.

The_Honeybadger

I have also been to some very poor parts of Asia during my travels, and we have quite a distance to fall before we can be compared to there. Ireland has had one of the highest standards of living on the planet, due to the fact that we have had one of the highest levels of disposabe income per household in the world over the past decade. This is correcting itself, as quite frankly we never deserved to have this. If we manage to pull ourselves out of the mess we are in we Ireland will still be a good place to live, the recession is an opportunity to change alot of things for the better, like our political system, public services and other dysfunctional aspects of life in this country, that's something at least.